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The date on the map is 1685. Berlin was certainly much bigger than that in 1835. I only included it to show that the double-s form is perfectly familiar to Germanophones, whereas the ß-form is not familiar to Anglophones (English ''ufed'' to have a double-s ligature, af anyone who haf read old manufcriptf knowf, but it if no longer ufed). [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 12:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The date on the map is 1685. Berlin was certainly much bigger than that in 1835. I only included it to show that the double-s form is perfectly familiar to Germanophones, whereas the ß-form is not familiar to Anglophones (English ''ufed'' to have a double-s ligature, af anyone who haf read old manufcriptf knowf, but it if no longer ufed). [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 12:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

::The text on the image says ''Gezeichnet von J.M.F. Schmidt. Berlin: Simon Schropp und Kamp 1835'' which I think means ''drawn in 1835'' but my German might be failing. In any case both 1685 and 1835 are before 1901 so my comment stands. I might then repeat myself again, and say that readers who are interested in an article on a particular street in Berlin are likely to either, know what the ß stands for or be interested in knowing what it stands for. [[User:Edinborgarstefan|Stefán Ingi]] 14:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


::This cannot be entirely true, since the German language has strict rules about when to use "ss" and when to use "ß". They are not interchangeable in German, so they cannot be considered the same spelling. I agree that "transliteration" seems to be the wrong word, but that doesn't justify your conclusions. I also suspect that the map dates from before the [[German spelling reform of 1996]] and is thus outdated as regards orthography, regardless of who made it. --[[User:Stemonitis|Stemonitis]] 08:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
::This cannot be entirely true, since the German language has strict rules about when to use "ss" and when to use "ß". They are not interchangeable in German, so they cannot be considered the same spelling. I agree that "transliteration" seems to be the wrong word, but that doesn't justify your conclusions. I also suspect that the map dates from before the [[German spelling reform of 1996]] and is thus outdated as regards orthography, regardless of who made it. --[[User:Stemonitis|Stemonitis]] 08:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:49, 23 June 2006

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.

Old Chancellery

Relative to my recent revert - the marker at the old Chancellery, Wilhelmstrasse 77, has Hitler's photo on it. The marker at the new Chancellery, on the corner of Voss-strasse, does not. Adam 03:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move

Wilhelmstrasse → Wilhelmstraße … Rationale: Since we are using a German word for the title of this page, we should spell it correctly. Stefán Ingi 19:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

All or nothing! Folks, make up your mind for one or the other. Either non-english letters and spelling is used for German words, too, as already in use in many other (e.g. Eastern European) context (see e.g. Talk:Bolesław I the Brave)', or stop fighting only against German Umlauts. --Matthead 16:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is a seperate issue with no bearing on this one. A lot of Polish editors at that page are rooting for inclusion of that peculiar 'l'. English should always be used in English WP, even if it's a matter of changing a non-Latin character to ss. The character ß may be a ligature of ss, but are we bound to write œ and æ for all words that historically contained it? Charles 18:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Normally spelt in English without the eszet. (Mention at top as German name, of course.) Septentrionalis 23:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't normally spelled in English at all, that's the point. This isn't like Munich, which clearly has an English name that is free of diacritics. Wilhelmstraße has no name but its German name. Angr (talk) 23:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just for information, there has been a lot of discussion on the question of using ß or ss in the past, e.g. see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 23#German eszet. At present this is listed as a "disputed issue" at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English): "There is disagreement as to whether German, Icelandic and Faroese names need transliteration for the characters ß, þ and ð". Saint|swithin 21:08, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I as I have pointed out several times, this isn't a matter of spelling (like Munich/Munchen), it's purely a matter of whether or not the English Wikipedia does or does not use a German orthographic convention which almost no-one outside Germany and Austria is familiar with. However since it is obvious that the majority of those above think that displaying their own uber-pedantic cleverness is more important than writing encyclopaedia articles which readers can actually read, I will save my breath. Adam 23:52, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is very much a matter of spelling. The difference between ss and ß is no mere "orthographic convention" in German; the two are not interchangeable. Masse "mass" and Maße "measurements" are different words, spelled and pronounced differently. Straße rhymes with Maße, not Masse, and is spelled accordingly. Using ss in place of ß is a kludge left over from the days when typewriters couldn't be relied on to have ß on them. Because this is an online encyclopedia, having the note at the top saying "This article title contains the letter ß" means that a full explanation of the letter in question is only a click away. The reader winds up having learned something about a street in Berlin and something about the Roman alphabet they might not have known before, instead of having their intelligence insulted by the attitude "Don't scare the reader with funny foreign squiggles". Angr (talk) 00:03, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Then how do the Swiss manage? --Philip Baird Shearer 14:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As Saint Swithin notes above, I am within my rights to write articles for the English Wikipedia using English orthography, and I will continue to do so. I might point out that "strasse" is written both ways even in Germany. I wish now that I had taken a photo in the Berlin U-bahn last month when I saw two adjacent signs for the U-bahn station name, one using "straβe" and one using "strasse." I note also that we have an article on Rudolf Hess and not Rudolph Heβ. Adam 01:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding signs reading both "-strasse" and "-straße", may I point out that even Germans make mistakes sometimes. If I relied on signs I'd seen on the street for my knowledge of English, I'd mis-spell all sorts of things. --Stemonitis 08:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I should have known that you know more about the correct way to write German words than the Germans do. Adam 08:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For an authoritative German spelling, see de:Wilhelmstraße (Berlin) (and note that there isn't even a redirect from the -ss- spelling on the German Wikipedia). And all I meant was that everyone makes mistakes. --Stemonitis 08:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I dare say there isn't a redirect from Forbidden City to 紫禁城 at the Chinese Wikipedia either. That's because in Chinese words are spelled in Chinese characters, whereas in English they are spelled in the Roman alphabet. Likewise, in Germany words are written following German usages, whereas in English they are written using English usages. (How shocking!) This is the English Wikipedia, which is read mostly by English speakers, almost none of whom know what "β" signifies. That is why we should render non-English placenames into the Roman alphabet and English usage, with appropriate recognition that in Germany they use the "β". This seems to me to be so elementary that I am amazed it needs justification. Only at Wikipedia, where no-one cares a toss about readers, or even seems to be aware that we have readers, and that we are producing Wikipedia for them, and not as a showplace for our own erudition, could this argument be necessary. Adam 08:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

German does use the -ss- spelling, but only in capital letters and places where ß (not β) is unavailable, most prominently URLs (e.g. [1]). Also, ß is of the Roman alphabet, being a ligature of two Roman characters, unlike Chinese characters. For both these reasons, the comparison with Chinese is unfair. And I think you underestimate the readership. --Stemonitis 09:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Readers interested in streets in Berlin will typically be familiar with the German alphabet or interested in learning it. Haukur 12:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am familiar with the streets in Berlin, but I disagree with you (So not surprises there then!) In German articles the German alphabet is the one to use, but not in English articles. --Philip Baird Shearer 14:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Currently it is at an "English" form of its German name, which is fine. No need to keep including non-standard Latin characters when not necessary. Charles 19:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it isn't. It's at a misspelled version of its German name. If it had an English form (which it doesn't), it would be William Street. Angr (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If I was still living in Germany, I might try to convince people otherwise as well. But this is English Wikipedia and ß exists also as ss. I study royalty and will note an example: Scions of the House of Prussia bear the surname Prinz/Prinzessin von Preussen abroad. Charles 20:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not formal at best, but browsing through a few Google results seems to favour ss. It's what people use mostly in English lest confusion arise over what exactly ß is. Charles 20:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is obvious what it is, it is a "B" in one of those quaint Gothic fonts! --Philip Baird Shearer 08:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You wouldn't believe how many times people have picked up a German book of mine and pronounced it like that! Charles 18:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have several times in the course of this dicussion typed "β" when I meant to type "ß" - and I'm someone who is supposed to know the difference. Readers cannot be expected to be familiar with foreign orthographic conventions. For Wikipedia to write straße instead of strasse just looks elitist and arrogant, and indeed it is. Adam 08:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Readers only need to be able to see the ß, not type it. For Wikipedia to write Strasse instead of Straße just looks condescending and insulting, and indeed it is. User:Angr 08:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's only insulting and condescending from a well-educated academics point of view - this is Wikipedia not "Academic-pedia" - we write for the lay person not the well educated and possibly snobbish elite. J.J. Popplewick 18:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That might be the case in a paper encyclopedia where finding out more information about the letter would be difficult. But since adding the {{foreignchar}} template to the top of the page enables us to link directly to the article about ß, where the lay person can read all about this character he might never have encountered before, so that he has learned something new. By having it at Wilhelmstraße with a link to the article on ß we're telling the reader "Here's the correct spelling, which contains a letter you might not have seen before, which incidentally you can learn more about while you're here." By keeping it at Wilhelmstrasse, on the other hand, we're telling the reader "We don't think you're intelligent enough to understand a letter you might not have seen before. We have to dumb this down to your level, you poor slob." User:Angr 18:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wilhelmstraße is only the "correct spelling" in Germany. English does not have correct spelling (that is a French thing) it only has common usage. "Wilhelmstrasse (German: Wilhelmstraße)" seems to cover the problem of presenting the German spelling for those who are interested in a much better than using that awful {{foreignchar}} template. As the WP:NC says:
This policy in a nutshell: Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
using the letter ß is not what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, nor at the same time making linking Wilhelmstraße to easy and second nature --Philip Baird Shearer 21:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Opening words

In order to prevent an edit war, and assuming that the requested move doesn't go through, let us discuss changes to the opening wording here. Haukur's change, to:

Wilhelmstraße, or Wilhelmstrasse when the eszett is transliterated,

is an elegant solution, but puts the wrong title first.

Adam Carr's preferred wording:

The Wilhelmstrasse (written Wilhelmstraße in Germany)

is also not ideal because the spelling does not apply merely to Germany, but rather to the German language everywhere (except Switzerland and Liechtenstein), and ignores the transliteration issue, which does need to be mentioned somewhere. There isn't anything like {{foreignchar}} for titles that don't contain a foreign letter, so I would like to propose a wording that contains some mention of the eszett issue:

Wilhelmstrasse (Wilhelmstraße in German: see ß)

It is concise, contains both titles, and links to an article that explains what ß is, and why we (sometimes) use -ss- where in German we would use -ß-. Any comments? --Stemonitis 07:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think this solution is neat. Stefán Ingi 09:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's concise but it bothers me a bit to call Wilhelmstraße German, that sort of implies that Wilhelmstrasse is not German, which of course it is. I would prefer any of the following:
Wilhelmstrasse (a transliteration of Wilhelmstraße, see ß)
Wilhelmstrasse (or Wilhelmstraße, see ß)
Wilhelmstrasse or Wilhelmstraße (see ß)
Wilhelmstrasse (Wilhelmstraße, see ß)
But of course it's not a very big deal. Haukur 15:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that transliteration is quite the right word. After all, ß is a ligature of two 's' characters. But any of the Haukur's last three suggestions seem OK to me (perhaps the second one is best). I'd like to hear Adam Carr's opinion before any changes are made. --Stemonitis 15:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps
Wilhelmstrasse (Wilhelmstraße in Germany: see ß)
is better. Stemonitis, is of course right that it is not only in Germany where this street name is Wilhelmstraße, but that might be a bit beside the point because in fact this street is in Germany so we should not need to mention how the name is written in Austria, say, in the lead. Again, this is not a terribly big point but I certainly think the ß link is useful. Stefán Ingi 15:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The character ß may indeed be a ligature of ss, but are we bound to write œ and æ for all words that historically contained it? I would prefer Wilhelmstrasse (also Wilhelmstraße, see ß). Charles 17:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wilhelmstrasse is neither a translation nor a transliteration of Wilhelmstraße: they are the same word, spelt the same way and written in the same language. The only difference is that one uses a German othographic device with which the great majority of Anglophones are not familiar, and one doesn't. As so often at Wikipedia, certain uber-pedant editors are trying to be Mehr deutscher als die Deutschen. Germans are perfectly familiar with the double-s form, as you can see if you click through to the high-res version of this map. Who are we to argue with the Great Elector? My preference would be: Wilhelmstrasse (Wilhelmstraße, see ß). Adam 07:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With the foreignchar template there is no need to worry about ß scaring readers away, it would simply be better to include it because it is more accurate. But this is repeating myself and others, what I wanted to say was that if the information of the Image page of this map is correct and it is drawn in 1835 then this phrase: Until the German spelling reform of 1901, the use varied from region to region from our article on ß might be seen as being relevant. Stefán Ingi 11:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The date on the map is 1685. Berlin was certainly much bigger than that in 1835. I only included it to show that the double-s form is perfectly familiar to Germanophones, whereas the ß-form is not familiar to Anglophones (English ufed to have a double-s ligature, af anyone who haf read old manufcriptf knowf, but it if no longer ufed). Adam 12:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The text on the image says Gezeichnet von J.M.F. Schmidt. Berlin: Simon Schropp und Kamp 1835 which I think means drawn in 1835 but my German might be failing. In any case both 1685 and 1835 are before 1901 so my comment stands. I might then repeat myself again, and say that readers who are interested in an article on a particular street in Berlin are likely to either, know what the ß stands for or be interested in knowing what it stands for. Stefán Ingi 14:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This cannot be entirely true, since the German language has strict rules about when to use "ss" and when to use "ß". They are not interchangeable in German, so they cannot be considered the same spelling. I agree that "transliteration" seems to be the wrong word, but that doesn't justify your conclusions. I also suspect that the map dates from before the German spelling reform of 1996 and is thus outdated as regards orthography, regardless of who made it. --Stemonitis 08:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Voss-strasse or Voßstrasse or ?

See also how Voss-strasse and Voßstrasse got pushed around recently.

There needs to be some policy taking care of that. I find it remarkable that English Wikipedia search yields lists 7 pages of results with strasse, but 11 pages with straße despite the alleged hardship of typing a "ß" --Matthead 14:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When there is a policy I will comply with it. Since there is no policy, I am entitled to create articles with the English usage, and I will go on doing so. I will rvt attempts to shift them to non-English usages. Adam 14:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then please move it to Voss street in the meantime. --Matthead 14:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I said "English usages" not "English names." Adam 14:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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