Talk:Gundagai

Massacres and the Dog on the Tuckerbox

Moved the following from history, where I will copy edit there. Additions from IPs 203.54.186.125 and 203.54.186.125 on 5, 6 and 17 June 2006.

Gundagai is known for an image of a dog on a box. This symbolism is more recently based on a poem about a bullock waggon stuck in the mud near Gundagai pre gazettal of Gundagai as a town in 1838. This bullock waggon carried a load of flour for the European settlers. The flour had to come from the mill at Goulburn. There was a severe drought happening. The flour on the bogged bullock wagon was rifled while the bullock driver was in the nearby hotel and subsequently, the remaining flour was laced with arsenic. More flour was taken from the waggon by Aboriginal people with the end result being there were many deaths. The massacre was heard about in Sydney and was investigated, but no one was able to be held to account. For many years the event was told and retold and a dog figure, representing an aspect of Australian Aboriginal lore, was placed on a stick at the Nine Mile near where the massacre happened. A photo exists of this earlier Dog monument. The story was passed down among long-time Gundagai residents and is still spoken about in Gundagai today but for many years when it was mentioned, people were told not to speak about it. The story was also retold in a popular Australian poem by Jack Moses but from a different, perhaps less challenging, perspective which explained the lingering tale that just would not go away. The known disparity between, and debate about, whether the event happened at the Five Mile or Nine Mile is to do with this. There are archival records documentating this iconic and significant Australian cultural heritage. The Gundagai incident is independent of the Benalla one. The Benalla massacre (if it is the 'Faithfull Massacre)was the one that led to Gundagai being gazetted. I have copies of the original documents of the line of communication being put through to Melbourne after the Faithfull Massacre. The Coolac Massacre story is still well known in Gundagai but not spoken about publically. There is no original research required for the Coolac Massacre as that it happened has never been forgotten in this town. The first poems about the massacre appeared in the 1850s. The monument to the massacre was built in 1932 and that monument is identical to a major Indigenous Ancestral feature. The Gundagai Independent in about October 2005 has some content. The Coolac massacre is currently part of not yet completed archaeological surveying in that area as reported online on ABC News. NSW National Parks have been notified of where the massacre remains were put. This burial area from the 1830s was previously known to National Parks. NSWNP do not release all information they hold. The massacre is spoken of in Gundagai's verse and song, the 'Dog' being 'first man' in Aboriginal culture. There are other supporting documents such as Tindale's letters and others. ({{fact}}<!--very interesting but need some sources please; note this reads very much like an incident near present day Benalla on 11 April 1838 - were there two or is there confusion?-->(citation requested and comment inserted by AYArktos) There were many many massacres of Indigenous people in Australia. I am not Indigenous. My family have lived at Gundagai since the 1840s which is not long after the massacre happened.

--A Y Arktos\^talk 20:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Note citations have been requested. Doesn't mean I don't believe it. It is Wikipedia policy though that things are Verifiable.--A Y Arktos\^talk 20:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I have done a search of verifiable sources through the ACT Public Library Service. The only reference I could find was an ABC news item on 15 September 2005 about claims of a massacre to defer the building of a bypass. The item reads in part:

"Gundagai resident Johneen Jones says there was a massacre in the area and the latest survey is needed under new heritage rules.

Councillor Tozer says he hopes work on the bypass can start.

"Hopefully there'll be no further sites discovered," he said.

"Certainly I haven't heard of the massacre before this particular time ... except from Johneen Jones on a previous occasion. So hopefully this matter can be put to rest and we can go on with the job and maybe save a few lives," he said."

Capitalistroadster 02:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability of massacre

• So far I am not finding anything on the web about this massacre

• • http://www.cat.org.au/forgottenwar/narrandera.html mentions the Wiradjuri wars but not this incident.
  • http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/constructionmaintenance/downloads/coolac_environreview.pdf discusses a massacre near coolac but in the following terms: "A local resident provided information about the possibility of an Aboriginal massacre site occurring in the general area between Mingay and Pettit. The reliability and exact location of the massacre site has yet to be determined, however, one unconfirmed suggestion is that it is close to Muttama Creek, or in general proximity of the current highway alignment. As the reliability of the information and definite location of the site could not verified,..."

Given the recent RTA environmental review at Coolac has failed to turn anything up, I am inclined to remove the reference as not meeting WP:V.--A Y Arktos\^talk 21:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Response has been moved here to make sense The RTA content you note is 2004 content so out of date. This is 2006. There have been two new lots of archs since then.

Given the site of the massacre wasnt known till this year yet you put up stuff that talks about what was known in 2004.

THIS IS 2006, NOT 2004. What is an ongoing investigative process has progressed to 2006. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.128 (talk • contribs) 11:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC+10 hours)

The RTA review has not failed to find anything to do with this massacre. You are quoting an out of date RTA publication.

remove the Coolac Massacre from here. Wik does not have the skills to have it. I have several citations but am not prteapred to put them here at this stage... or ever now. People can do their own research and I will relese the citations to those who I choose to have them, not you silly lot at it strikes me, here is too silly to deserve to have them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.128 (talk • contribs) 11:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC+10 hours)

• If you wish to contribute to the wikipedia then you need to read our policies on Verifiability. You need to cite sources. I may have cited a 2004 source - at least I cited something! If there is a more recent RTA review or any other review - please feel free to reference it. No reliable source, no entry in the wikipedia - nothing to do with skills, all to do with No original research, which is policy.--A Y Arktos\^talk 01:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Response has been moved here to attempt to make sense of it and the dialogue

There are numerous poems that cite this massacre. Some will be online.

You should have seen that 2004 date on the RTA material you noted and have realised it was way out of date.

Use the poems about the massacre as citations but then .... that requires skill in textual analysis to recognise those poems are citations. If you have those skills you will cite them.

There is a lot of material but it mostly requires particular skills to be able to use so it may be wasted here.

Whatever, its best the Coolac Massacre is not noted here I now think. I didnt realise wik was so silly as its not a source researchers use. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.128 (talk • contribs) 15:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC+10hours)

Coolac bypass hold-up

From that i have head about this 'massacre' is that a Neville Williams who is a Wiradjuri Aboriginal clams that there was a 'massacre' there (I think he did the same type of thing at West Wyalong trying to stop the Lake Cowal gold mine) so far nothing has been found at the site to prove this. All i know is at the moment a museum is holding up the Coolac bypass.

RobertM 01:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Who is Robert Myers. You do not know much if you think a Museum is holding up the Coolac Bypass. The Coolac Bypass is not held up. It just is not ready to start yet. It will start when the funding is released by the Federal Government, (on 1 July) then after that the preferred tenderer needs to get its complex operations into place so they can start. This preferred tenderer hasnt even be awarded the contract yet so who in your mind is to build the bypass? Noddy? Contractors cant be hired and huge construction jobs cant start if the money to pay them has not been paid in by the governemnt. Those who claim all these other things re a fanciful holdup are having delusions.

Neville Williams is a highly respected Aboriginal Elder who lobbies to have Aboriginal heritage saved or at least recorded. Yes he did lobby re Lake Cowal. Many Australians lobbied re the Snowy Sale because of its heritage aspects. Is there something wrong with saving haritage or is it just wrong if you do it to save Aboriginal heritage??? Please answer that here given you have had a go here re Neville Williams.

Its not going to cost anyone in Australia if a small plaque is erected somewhere near the Coolac Bypass is it, to note that massacre. After all we mark massacres such as Port Arthur etc so of course we can also note the Coolac one though there has already been a large monument built to it bragging about it going on its inscription.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.128 (talk • contribs) 15:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC+10hours)

I don't know much? (ABC News 17/4/2006) No end to Coolac bypass delays. I never had a go at Neville Williams i just stated on what i know!

RobertM 05:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, if u are quoting ABC News, cite it. You wrote it as if it was your own info rather than ABC content.

"(I think he did the same type of thing at West Wyalong trying to stop the Lake Cowal gold mine) so far nothing has been found at the site to prove this. All i know is at the moment a museum is holding up the Coolac bypass."

If you think that re Neville Williams, what makes you think 'that'?

How do you know "nothing has been found at the site to prove this"? What is your authority there? I do have authority re that and again, you are talking twaddle.

How do you know "a museum is holding up the Coolac bypass"? What Museum and how do you know that???

I know you do not have a registered interest in the Coolac Bypass so know what you very obviusly do NOT know.

Its very sad that when Aboriginal massacres in Australia begin to be talked of, that some jump to disprove them and try to discredit anyone associated with bringing them out into public knowledge.

Robert you are not going to be hung because of the Coolac Massacre as you were not involved in it, (unless you are Rip Van Winkle perhaps), so why are you carrying on like this???

Why do we have to hide these massacres of Aboriginal people in Australia any more????? I know of 4 others around Gundagai but there are probably more. I have documentation for 3 of those and am very confident I will find documentation re the 4th.

Whatever, putting stuff here is very silly isnt it as I understand what happens here now. All the dont knows from all over dispute content and come out with silly unsubstantiated statements such as you have, and what could be a good site to record stuff, turns into a three ring circus full of ignoramus nonsense. As well, whoever checks stuff here references old, out of date info and announces his/her intention to disallow entries on the strength of Internet information that is way out of date. That more or less means here isnt worth the bother.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.186.212 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC+10 hours) (Note this edit also innapropriately blanked part of the conversation) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.186.83 (talk • contribs) 17:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC+10 hours)

More on Coolac bypass heritage investigations

The anon editor has suggested that 2004 references are "old, out of date info". There appears to be no later environmental review than 2004. http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/constructionmaintenance/downloads/coolac_environreview_dl1.html There seems no reason to believe that the review was not thorough at the time and that any new information has come to light. This ABC news item from August 2005 suggests that the heritage study was over 10 years old. However, it is not clear if the RTA or the NSW Department of Environment and Conservation agreed and were prepared to act on the suggestion to redo the heritage study. This article does indicate that Neville Williams was involved in the discussions. A Google search does not turn up any later news items than August/September 2005 and no evidence that any more recent surveys have been done.--A Y Arktos\^talk 10:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Refactored response from anon - restored my own comment above--A Y Arktos\^talk 00:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

'There appears' I imagine who checked this did some really wide ranging investigation. If you just looked on the Internet that isnt looking far is it.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/constructionmaintenance/downloads/coolac_environreview_dl1.html There seems no reason to believe that the review was not thorough at the time and that any new information has come to light.

"There seems to be no reason to believe that the review was not thorough at the time ..."

Time is the operative word here.

This ABC news item from August 2005 suggests that the heritage study was over 10 years old. However, it is not clear if the RTA or the NSW Department of Environment and Conservation agreed and were prepared to act on the suggestion to redo the heritage study. This article does indicate that Neville Williams was involved in the discussions.

"A Google search does not turn up any later news items than August/September 2005 and no evidence that any more recent surveys have been done."

Arkos has used the Internet to do his research. The Internet is not regarded as a reliable research tool so Arktos is using an unreliable source.

This discussion is too ridiculous. I am sure I can find better to do. Cheerio.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.162 (talk • contribs) 08:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC+10 hours)

Reminder of what wikipedia is not: translate "no original research"

Although the anon contributer has been referred to Wikipedia:No original research he or she has still suggested that "poems about the massacre as citations but then .... that requires skill in textual analysis to recognise those poems are citations". It is not a matter of skill. Analysing citations to draw conclusions is original research. Please refer to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. Textual analysis published in a peer reviewed journal would be accepted. Unpublished textual analysis would not be acceptable as a source.

Wikipedia is not responsible or otherwise for the presence or absence of plaques on the Hume highway. Nor is it hiding massacres. Wikipedia will not include information that cannot be verified from Reliable sources. Wikipedia is not meant as a source for researchers; researchers need original material and they will not, or at least should not, find it here.--A Y Arktos\^talk 10:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Please do not insert comments in the middle of somebody else's comments and please "sign" using four tildes ~~~~. Order of converation restored.A Y Arktos\^talk 00:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Textual analysis is not original research. Its a skill. Textual analysis is learned in media and literature courses. You cannot do it effectively though if you do not have some knowledge (SKILL) in it that you learn. When poems are read, the interpretation the reader takes from such poems is skill based. No doubt there are some poems listed somewhere on the wikipedia site. I think the 'Illiad' is. A study guide is cited on the Illad site. Guide means guide.

Please refer to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. Textual analysis published in a peer reviewed journal would be accepted. Unpublished textual analysis would not be acceptable as a source.

Wikipedia is not responsible or otherwise for the presence or absence of plaques on the Hume highway.

WHO SAID WIK WAS RESPONSIBLE????? This is gross misrepresentation.

Nor is it hiding massacres.

WHO SAID WIK WAS HIDING MASSACRES???? There seems to be a serious problem of comprehension here. That comment was directed at 'Robert' who was inclined to put the worst possible interpretation on what is happening at Coolac in his uninformed carrying on about a museum holding works up, and no results found etc.

Wik is not the entire topic of conversation on the Internet. Sometimes other subjects and entities other than wik are being referred to in discussions.

As a result of this sort of nonsense, I cannot take wik seriously. I thought it was an OK resource (but I didnt know much about it) till I got involved in this discussion.

Wik has been told already the information re the Coolac Massacre isnt suitable for posting on wik so what is 'Arktos' on about? Wik can't handle the Coolac Massacre information because wik has a limited capacity, so it misses out. Thats easy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.162 (talk • contribs) 08:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC+10 hours)

Quote WHO SAID WIK WAS HIDING MASSACRES???? There seems to be a serious problem of comprehension here. That comment was directed at 'Robert' who was inclined to put the worst possible interpretation on what is happening at Coolac in his uninformed carrying on about a museum holding works up, and no results found etc. Well it's been in the media (IE: Local media) which i thought that should be in the talk. Well the Australian Museum specialist is looking into the Coolac bypass area (It's in the ABC story which i linked to). I'm not stopping you from posting about the Massacre and i'm not hiding it. I would like to see more Aboriginal history posted with verifiable sources on Wiki as it's something most Australians and the World don't know or know little about. RobertM 01:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Coolac bypass discussion

I just read on the wik notice board a discussion re here. In particular a 'grahamc' post. This person claims he is involved with Coolac and with NSWNP but was retiring. I have no idea how a State government employee would be talking about stuff to do with work in this manner. I also have no idea how he would be claiming knowledge re Coolac as if he had any he'd not be saying he had, or be commenting on any of it here.

Is GrahamC of Indigenous heritage and/or initiated? If he isnt, he isnt qualified to comment on the symbolism. I'd say he isnt Indigneous and/or initiated as there is no one with that name on my radar. Is he a qualified archaeologist. No, I know he isnt. Is he an informed local. I would say he very certainly isnt so would have no useful local knowledge re any of it. He claims knowledge re this issue. He very obviously has no 'expert' knowledge of it so has put some scoffing remarks here re it all just to be negative about the whole topic claiming at the same time, some inner knowledge that gives him the right to make some sort of pseudo qualified statement.

Its annoying when people put rubbish here. You may have previously worked at stuff to do with Coolac but dont know much re the massacre at all. Nil has gone to NP yet so you do not know enough about it to even know that. The surveys arent completed so no report can be done till they are. Perhaps if you go put misinformation elsewhere, but not on this Aboriginal Massacre discussion site. If you don't know something, dont claim you do to big time yourself as the topic doesnt deserve that.

I know you have totally no registered interest in Coolac either as an RTA person or as a community member. The information you put on the Wik Notice board re here is mostly on the public record but with errors so you repeated it out of context and though you put some vaguely correct stuff here that has been in the papers and maybe was general talk at the RTA, you dont know the finer points and the restricted stuff you would never ever be privy to so wont ever know so cant comment on it. Yes, the massacre isnt in the way of the new road. You know how the RTA know that? I told them. I'd only be able to tell them (RodS) that if I knew other stuff and if they then checked I'd notifed new stuff to cover themselves. As a State gov employee you would not have put stuff here that wasnt on the general public record anyway, especially with this stuff.

If you are Aboriginal and/or initiated I will accept you are qualifed to make comment re the symbolism though you didnt learn your cultural story well and are wrong with your assertions. If you are not, you very certainly are not qualified to comment on that aspect re Coolac - so dont presume to as it just messes here up. Claiming you are qualified to comment on the symbolism of another culture by commenting, is similar to claiming you are a pilot then crashing the plane after it takes off. I am qualified to comment on the symbolism.

Likewise with other aspects re Coolac, you do not know for specific cultural but also professional reasons.

"Statutory authorities put cultural heritage values above scientific values."

Navin Officer, Coolac ICHRD Report for the RTA 2005.

Translated that means that in Australian archaeology (VIA which EIS Reports are made), what you 'think' re the symbolism has totally no weight as it is so out of touch its ridiculous. Statutory Authorities such as the RTA know that the symbolic stuff carries immense weight and go forward, paying respect to that so that heritage can be saved and construction jobs can be effectively completed with all interests being addressed. You need to have a chat to the RTA arch and get educated about how the RTA now handle this Indignenous Heritage stuff starting with the Sheahan Bridge after they learned re Coolac. Its scoffing attitudes about cultural heritage that holds stuff up and that doesnt assist anything.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.98 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC+ 10 hours)