Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Landmark Worldwide/Proposed decision

Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

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PD update

Just to keep people in the loop, the ETA for the PD will probably be closer to the end of this weekend. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 03:07, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying that - I had been assuming that you would not make a start on this one until the Gender Gap case reached a conclusion. I hope that this one will not be so troublesome! On a point of procedure, does the Committee have the discretion to sanction editors who are not named parties in the case, or are they explicitly restricted to ones that are? Thanks. DaveApter (talk) 11:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

When I wrote the above I hadn't noticed your datestamp David, and I assumed that 'end of the weekend' meant 23rd, but logically it would have referred to 16th? Presumably the on-going search for a close on GGTF is still holding things up?

Since this PD may be being prepared at the moment, may I ask if Lithistman may be formally added as a party at this stage? The evidence presented clearly establishes a prima facie case for him to answer, and it seems only fair that the Committee should have the opportunity to express an opinion on that one way or the other. Thank you. DaveApter (talk) 14:28, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

The only prima facie case established against me is that I showed up as an uninvolved editor (having only just then learned of the existence of Landmark), placed a tag, and tried to work on moving the article towards NPOV. Your attempts to smear me as some kind of anti-Landmark POV pusher have not worked, nor should they be in any way rewarded. LHM^{ask me a question} 15:08, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

To update; yes, we're being a bit delayed by the other cases, a bit because I'm afraid real-life activities meant I didn't get to fully read all the evidence until later than I'd like, and also just because more complicated cases naturally take more time and require more arb attention. In regards to procedures: the Committee does not sanction editors who are not named parties in cases, and at this point it is too late to add new parties as the time for evidence has closed. We'll keep you updated when the PD is imminent. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 18:53, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that. If this is not possible at this stage then so be it. This is my first experience of Arbitration and I wasn't clear what the deadlines are for adding parties, or the procedure for requesting it, or whose responsibility it is to make such a request. I couldn't find any reference to these on the Arbitration Policy and Guidelines pages (If I missed something, I'd be grateful for being pointed to it). I had assumed that Lithistman would be de facto considered to be a party to the case since there are clear allegations on the Evidence page (with plenty of supporting diffs and examples) that he has been edit warring, failing to assume good faith, making personal attacks and shown disrespect for the Dispute Resolution Procedures. Clearly from the proposed remedies on the workshop page, I wasn't alone in making this assumption. DaveApter (talk) 13:24, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

You really need to stop flinging around accusations, DaveApter. LHM^{ask me a question} 15:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Thinking of Tom Petty

The waiting is the hardest part.... John Carter (talk) 16:43, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

It certainly is. The PD is largely complete at this point, but we do need to wrap up a few final details. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:50, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. John Carter (talk) 17:55, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

re proposed "Contemporary social phenomena" classification

I'm responding here to John Carter's comments on the workshop page today [1], rather than there because the close date for that page was 13 days ago.

• Firstly, I agree that the phrase 'Contemporary social phenomemena' is 'extremely vague', and I had some misgivings about it myself, and I'd be delighted if anyone can suggest a better one. However, I think we all know what sort of articles I am referring to, and I'd suggest it will do as a placeholder for now.
• Secondly - even if a more satisfactory and more restrictive phrase cannot be found - I don't see that that makes my suggestion 'unworkable': even if the category (pedantically interpreted) covers, for example, episodes of The Simpsons TV cartoon, I think there would be no difficulty in determining where the purported guidelines are appropriate and where they are irrelevant. DaveApter (talk) 20:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

"Contemporary social movements" might be better, but probably still too broad, because not all are motivated by ideology or dogma.

By "social", it would seem that you mean "organized", and by "phenomena", the group activity defining the organization.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:19, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Possible late, admittedly circumstantial evidence

Would it be too late to provide some admittedly circumstantial evidence regarding possible POV or other problems regarding one of the parties involved in this case? John Carter (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

This includes, from his early history here as an editor, a comment from DaveApter which seems to indicate he may have been at least an unpaid worker for Landmark here, his remarkable knowledge about stock ownership of the company, interesting because the company is according to our article employee-owned here, and a remarkable degree of knowledge regarding statistics and registration information relating the company's financial affairs here, here, and here. It was partially on the basis of such information that I advised him on his user talk page some time ago that if he was currently an employee of LM, or anticipates getting some sort of retirement or other compensation from the company in the future, that he could be seen as having a COI as per WP:COI regarding the topic. Although I haven't searched his talk page archives, I remember he shortly thereafter indicated that he would be taking a break from the topic. John Carter (talk) 18:50, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

That's quite a preponderance of circumstantial evidence. I'd say it's enough to at least consider a topic ban for DaveApter in all Landmark and NRM-related articles, broadly construed. LHM^{ask me a question} 19:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that his proposed guidelines are at least in part intended to reduce harm people associated with the movements involved might suffer, which presumably could include financial harm of a person with a COI, and that WP:CIVILITY deals with matters of honesty as well. John Carter (talk) 20:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)