Talk:Hwacha

Origin

The hwacha was initally developed in China and later transferred to Korea.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.34.168 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Can you source it please?HappyApple 21:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I wonder if there is any continuity between the Hwacha technology and 20th century Katyusha (invented in Russia during WWII). Did the russians reinvent the multiple rocket launcher, or did they merely convert an older technology?

Hwacha in games

I think we need this to be deleted. (Wikimachine 14:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC))

Why do you think so? Pedant 06:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Making this article more professional

Here are things I fixed.

• Incorrect Grammar. Some people try to edit even when they can't speak English.
• Elongating English. Some people try to make the words fancy because they can't write well in the first place.
• Confusing format. History & description are already in the introductory paragraph. But there is another section called Description. (sigh)
• Repetitive contents. The article is lengthening and repetitive. What bothers me the most is how there's a picture of Hwacha in real life & another in game.
• Reference to media/game. See Encyclopedia Britannica. See Encarta. See any encyclopedia. See if they have games. If you are obsessed with games, don't write here..
• Stub. This is a stub. I can see that there has been much effort by the Wikipedians to make it to be like an article. Yes. This is a very interesting and important subject. But, I would say do some more research.

Good wishes to all. I don't mean any offense, but I am frustrated. (Wikimachine 05:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC))

I hope all your personal frustration dont be reflected in the article. :) , by the way, i have seen many articles that includes references in popular culture (i.e, Trebuchet) i dont see how this can affect to the professionalism you are claiming. By the way, what do you mean by "fancy"?. I think this is a collaborative effort made by people who wish this article and others to be better day and day. If you have oranges, make a juice with them :) --HappyApple 22:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's nothing fancy now because I fixed them. But really long English is what I'm pointing out.

Instead of saying "Hwacha could fire around 100 arrows", some people say something like "The number of arrows that could be fired by the instrument of Hwacha reached or exceed that of 100." (Wikimachine 15:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)) So, could I delete the popular culture section? Having a popular culture section just to discuss about it seems far fetched. Let's dismiss it with a few sentences or so in the introduction. (Wikimachine 15:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC))

I reverted. I noticed that somebody had reverted my edits. Unacceptable. (Wikimachine 17:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC))

Professional yes, less info no way

• I am not sure why User:Wikimachine insists on deleting information regarding to description and popular culture references, many other articles about guns and historical weapons have it, Why this cant have it?. I have changed some specifically sensitive words like Korean Empire to Choson dynasty to avoid some sort of bias towards to some culture or another, although isn't Korean Empire a synonym of Chosun dynasty?.
• This revert should not be considered as a personal point of view or whim, rather as an attempt to follow the same pattern used in another historical guns and weapons here at Wikipedia.
• Professionalism can't be pushed or impossed and even suggesting words, like "If you like games..." or "Encarta or Britannica doesnt have this or that..", or talking about "Personal frustrations...".
• By the way, why Category: Weapons of Korea and Category:Rockets and missiles are being deleted consecutively?. Doesn't them fit on this article?. --HappyApple 22:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Keep my revert for following reasons:

The version that I reverted to has correct grammars because that's how fixed it. The current version is terrible.

Also, I suggested dismissing popular culture section in a sentence or two. If you want to add something about popular culture, put a sentence summarizing the infos. (Wikimachine 13:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC))

Ok. I saw the revert. IT'S COMPLETELY POV.

Chosn Dynasty emerged victorious over Japan. I myself is Korean, but this is too FANCY and POV. I repeat, if you want to have infos about popular culture, add a sentence summarizing it. We don't need an entire section on popular culture. (Wikimachine 13:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC))

PROFESSIONAL, PLEASE, GAME MANIACS GO AWAY

You see how awkward it is to have a section dedicated to games in the end? This isn't even infos, buddy. Especially in such a short article. I tried to moderate it, but it just looks so bad.

Isn't it obvious that Hwacha would be in museums? This is what I mean by fancy. Unnecessary but long, as to look professional and official.

Isn't it obvious that Hwacha would be in national parks? People just want to mention games. They get excited, don't they. Why don't they play games all their life and not edit in Wikipedia, then.

I say delete it.

Then is it logical to have a game section in guise as popular culture for William the Conqueror? Admiral Yi?

I agree Oyo321 15:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Many articles have a pop culture trivia, and not even this, if you see Trebuchet and Piltdown man they also have it.

• "Choson Dynasty emerged victorious over Japan": Isn't this true?. Didn't Koreans won the Imjin war and didn't them defeated Japan by the use of their navy?. Please, dont exagerate the words, obviously this sentence is politically and historically correct and not POV as your claim.
• Politeness: I would ask you to please avoid the word "maniac" on this discussion and also "go away" terms. As you can see this is a forum, not a place to impose your own point of view.
• Sections and subheadings: As the article keeps growing, why deleting information that is relevant such as the rare material used to build this weapon and a description of its use, and how was involved on events, and Why not? A pop culture trivia reference section?. It seems you are deleting information in aims to let the article as a stub. A self contradictory behaviour as you are claiming this article should be out from stub.
• Wikipedia is not a democracy: We can't just go and making votes over there on What's better?, to have less sections, to delete games and so on. This is not the way how Wikipedia works.
  • Here an excerpt: In difficult cases, straw polls may be conducted to help determine consensus, but are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes.
• Decisions are addressed and discussed properly so we can go to an agreement.
• I am in favor to start to work on an article that has sections instead reducing its content by stating words like "fancy", or missunderstanding terms or even stating, "bad english".
• I am reverting the article to start working on what we have. I believe we can make a good article and expanding it instead reducing its content.--HappyApple 23:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

---

• I'm very sorry if you were offended. But doesn't no way and go away rhyme? Let me tell you that it was never meant to be accusation.

• Choson Dynasty emerged is unnecessary. We are writing POV and straight, plain fact-English. Plus, a reader can click on the Imjin War link to find out more about it.

• It's VERY repetitive for the article to describe Hwacha in the introduction and then have a separate section for description.

• Please, I don't get scared by democracy junk here. I've been here long enough, and I'm a debater. Indeed, Wikipedia is democracy. After we talk in discussion (which has been going on for a long time now, about 3 months?), we vote for community consensus.

• I repeat, to have a section dedicated to game and "popular culture" (bingrae) is idiocratic. Just because those other articles are ruined doesn't mean that you can justify your action with those examples. In fact, I don't even need to have this discussion that is so obvious.

• This article has one of the most incorrect grammars. Some people who think they know something come here and randomly change things.

• Hwachas were essentially one, if not the first, practical multiple rocket launching mobile pad ever made. Not only is this incorrect and has no base to support this claim, it is in wrong grammar.
• All the machinery was built entirely of wood. This also has no warrant. Pretty much personal opinion. And to me, this is unnecessary junk.
• It is unclear which wood was used to build Hwachas, but most historians agree pine was used throughout Asia from 14th to 17th centuries in the contruction of weaponry Again, it has no reference. It should be "...most historians agree that pine..." and "...agree that Asian weapons throughout the 14th and 17th century were generally out of pine..."
• It is likely Pinus koraiensis the Korean variety of Pine, might be used as raw material to build them. Complete bogus. No warrant. Wrong grammar.
• Just to tell you, "Conflicts and Wars" is pretty must unnecessary elongation. In fact, it was NEVER USED OTHER THAN IN THE Imjin War. Another thing is how that section flip flops between Imjin War and Seven Years War.
• "Hwachas had a profound impact in Korean culture as an effect of the Seven-Year War". I think that as an effect of the Seven-Year War is a perfect example of the "professional Wikipedians" (lol).

• "Hwachas have appeared specially in many computer games;" especially, not specially.

• I seriously hope that these edits were not made by our happy friend here.

• I am calling an administrator to get this issue settled, dear.

(Wikimachine 03:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

The consensus process does not depend upon a vote, rather it depends upon consent. Wikipedia is not a democracy, neither is it a feudal system where it is appropriate to stake out your territory and defend it... wikipedia is a collaborative effort, and if you have a disagreement with how an article is written, then discussion is necessary, but voting is unnecessary. Any conflict that any editor has is a result of that editor not having engaged in appropriate discussion.

If your reasons for including or for excluding a piece of text are valid, you will be able to support your position and your edits will be stable. If your edits are not stable you must improve them to the standards we all have consensually agreed upon: facts belong in wikipedia if there is a reference source to support them, and if the information is relevant. Removing information without consensus is not collaboration.

If it is truly your intent to be a productive part of this project, you must learn how to create a consensus supporting your edits, or create edits that fit the consensus which has been previously reached. If it is not your intent to be a productive part of this project, write a book or do some other form of project which does not require discussion, consensus and collaboration. The wikipedia community insists on cooperation and if you cannot cooperate, you cannot participate. This is a consensus that the community has reached. Pedant 06:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Vote on Whether To Delete Popular Culture Paragraph

It is perceived this vote may be invalid. For more information see: Wikipedia is not a democracy.

Support for obvious reasons above. (Wikimachine 13:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC))

Support Not sure if I can trust games to depict hwachas and stuff. Oyo321 15:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Voted should be used with caution, i believe they can't be randomly claimed.--HappyApple 23:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Hoho. You believe so? Reread the Wikipedia rules on votes and community consensus. (Wikimachine 04:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

Oppose The more information, the better. If someone played a game that involved Hwachas, and wanted to learn more about it, this page should contain as much information on it as possible, including popular culture references, so that person could play other games that involved Hwachas. --Youthinkyouknowsomethinghuh 21:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Just so long as the information is kept at a basic level and doesn't describe the hwacha in the game extensively. People should know how popular hwachas are in games and in Korea.

• If a person wanted to know about hwachas he should go to a game forum or something >youthinkyouknowsomethinghuh. Good friend100 00:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose There are numerous game references in wikipedia articles, and articles about games which have references to information that is outside the scope of the game... and as long as it is factual and relevant it belongs. Remember wikipedia is not paper and more information is better than less information. Please let us use cooperative effort and not wikilawyering. A stable edit is a good edit, let us all try to write in a way that will allow us to move beyond these petty squabbles over crumbs, don't remove information, improve on the writing. This is the biggest and best collaboration humans have ever participated in, try to be proud of your ability to work together: rather than trying to argue, try to reach an agreement together. Pedant 06:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Hwacha-Korean

In the opening sentence, why does it say, that, the Hwacha is of Chinese and Korean origins? A hwacha was invented by the Koreans, and is therfore named by the Koreans. I know China did own hwacha type weapons, but this a Korean article on the Hwacha only. If we're going to put down "chinese origins," put it on a Chinese weapons article, not a Korean one. It is misleading. Oyo321 15:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey Oyo321! It's already clear that Hwacha is Korean. Saying it's Korean weapon of Korean origin wouldn't be its purpose.

The reason why I put Chinese & Korean origin is b/c singijeon, which is Chinese origin, is launched by Hwacha. It's unfair to credit only the Koreans because fire arrow, which includes singijeon, was widespread in Asia. Since you disagree, I will just say it's Korean weapon. (Wikimachine 18:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC))

Ok guys

Ok, HappyApple and Wikimachine stop arguing. The Hwacha article can be very stable if we just work together.

Firstly, about the game section. I agree that Hwacha's should be noted for their use in games. However the section should be kept at a basic level and not detailed. Also there shouldn't be any game ads stained all over the article itself.

It is true that the hwacha is an ingenious invention, much more different than the Chinese one and a lot better than the Chinese one too. Hwacha's are Korean and Korea developed it. Good friend100 23:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Extensive edits

I edited the entire article. The games section is ok the way it is since it doesn't describe how hwachas are used in games. I suggest a picture of a hwacha from a game wouldn't hurt since pictures make articles a lot better. Good friend100 00:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I have continued the work that Good friend100 started a couple of days ago, and i expanded the subsections and i properly referenced each paragraph as suggested by user:Wikimachine, i also suggest to stop arguing and work to make this article improve. I hope all my contributions can be nicely welcomed :-) --HappyApple 10:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I know very little about Asian history so I cannot contribute new material, but I am very pleased we have so many knowledgeable people willing to work on articles in a language that is not their native tongue. When this article becomes more stable, I would be happy to work on improving the English and grammar. If anyone would like me to look over any other similar articles, to improve the grammar so that it reads well in English, please let me know. Thanks to all of you for a very interesting article.Pedant 06:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Chinese military support

To the editor who posted Chinese Military support

The hwacha in several ways is similiar to the Chinese one. BUT the hwacha is purely Korean and it is not a copy. It was designed and created by Korean engineering. Good friend100 13:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Great Job! Now onto the Reference

This is absolutely amazing! (more amazing if you would delete the last section on popular culture)

But about references and notes, what are the differences between them? I say we merge them.

This is absolutely amazing. (Wikimachine 16:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC))

The removal of games

There was a bit of uncertainty as to why I have been going around removing games from many articles. It is because I feel the games are irrelevant to the articles I have removed them from. I feel these references to games should be moved to the games article it self and instead of saying this place, object or weapon is featured in this game, the game's article should say it features this place, this object or weapon.

Although a Hwacha is relevant to the game, the game is not relevant to a Hwacha and the game should not be mentioned here.

--OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 13:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue about removing games from Hwacha has been already discussed so far, and i even contacted an Advocate to solve this apparent dispute caused by user:Wikimachine, and according to my advocate among other users, "There are numerous game references in wikipedia articles, and articles about games which have references to information that is outside the scope of the game... and as long as it is factual and relevant it belongs. Remember wikipedia is not paper and more information is better than less information. Please let us use cooperative effort and not wikilawyering." --HappyApple 15:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

But I think games in general should not be refered to in most articles. So I disagree with the argument that games are already refered to in many articles and thus it is alright for this article to reference a game. Two or more wrongs does not make a right and I think game references in this article and many other articles is wrong. The game's own article should reference this article and any other article. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 15:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

While i respect your point of view i disagree, in fact, i would be very instructive to a user or reader to find information which is bidirectional instead only monodirectional. References should complement to each other, like Brownian motion and Tyndall effect, and i feel games are part of it. And i dont think that there is two or more wrongs make a right, i see it as a wikicommunity consensus which in fact sees articles open to editors to expand sections rather than minimizing its content or restricting topics.--HappyApple 15:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

But again, I strongly disagree. Information should not be bidirectional simply because one article references another article, the other article should reference the first article. Wikipedia is not a link exchange. As for a wikicommunity consensus, I am taking this up as a policy change on the village pump. I strongly believe game references should be removed. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 15:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The general concensus is this is non-notable, but I admit this is a split between those who say it is and those who say it isn't. But this also falls under a policy, Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not; Wikipedia is not a software directory and what was removed was a list of games, a directory, which featured this weapon. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 15:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I still advocate the removal of game section. I think it's ridiculous. (Wikimachine 23:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC))

Excuse me. I know you disagree with the removal, but it is a directory of games that feature a Hwacha as a unit. It is policy that Wikipedia is not a directory, so the section should be deleted as a matter of policy. It was more than justified, but you have not justified in the talk page why it is not a directory. Infact, you haven't answered my reasoning at all. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 07:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

You thinking it is ridiculous doesn't make it against policy, the ridiculous is in your head, not in the policy, its an opinion and you just don't delete based on opinion. You don't remove data unless it's irrelevant, or unverifiable, not according to policy. This isn't a directory of software, it's a paragraph in the section relating the ancient weapon Hwacha to other significant cultural artifacts. If these games were not significant, they would not have articles on wikipedia, and if this was a mere directory it would be different... It's very common to mention references to popular culture in any number of different articles, and this does not fall under under the policy you cite, which I am posting here to be certain you read it:

Wikipedia is not a directory

Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed. Wikipedia articles are not:

1. Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics such as quotations, aphorisms, or persons (real or fictional). If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project Wikiquote. Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List. Wikipedia also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference. Merged groups of small articles based on a core topic are certainly permitted; see List of locations in Spira for an example.
2. Genealogical entries, or phonebook entries. Biography articles should only be for people with some sort of fame, achievement, or perhaps notoriety. One measure of publicity is whether someone has been featured in several external sources (on or off-line). Less well-known people may be mentioned within other articles (e.g. Ronald Gay in Persecution of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and the transgendered). See m:Wikipeople for a proposed genealogical/biographical dictionary project, and Wikitree for a project that aims to be the family tree of the human race. Wikipedia is not the white pages.
3. Directories, directory entries, TV/Radio Guide or a resource for conducting business. For example, an article on a radio station generally shouldn't list upcoming events, current promotions, phone numbers, schedules etc. (although mention of major events or promotions may be acceptable). Furthermore, the Talk pages associated with an article are for talking about the article, not for conducting the business of the topic of the article. Wikipedia is not the yellow pages. See Yellowikis for a project with that goal.

It's totally valid to have links to other articles that link to here

see here

I am reinstating the text. There's no reason to keep deleting this material. When you delete something controversial, its customary to move it to the talk page and discuss it... this is a discussion, that is turning into a dispute. Let's resolve it between us rather than escalate to more formal procedures which would have the same result. If you have a reason to delete it, show me a policy that really says its justifiableto remove it, and if you can't, I am going to have to agree that this text should stay. This edit war has gone on long enough, let's end it. A vote was called and it seems that support for inclusion ran about double to support for exclusion, no real consensus, but policy is clear, and the policy does have consensus. You have to abide by policy if you want to go forward with work on the encyclopedia, it doesn't work any other way. If you disagree with the policy, edit the policy page and see how welcome your changes are. User:Pedant 08:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry it came to an edit war, but I tried to bring it up for discussion, which failed because two parties must partake in a discussion and I was the only voice here except for the rare comment. I do disregard edit summeries because I do not think edit summaries equate valid comments on their own when the material is disputed. There should be talk page comments to further explain the reasoning behind a disputed edit and a person should reply to other's reasoning even when they are not editing the article. I am more than willing to discuss policy and relevance and how relevant the section in question is, if there is someone who cares to dispute and actually discuss it here instead of simply reverting it with the edit summary being the sole forum of reasoning. This btw is how an edit war starts, when the only medium used by one or more parties is the edit summary.

I would rather quote essays than policy. Essays help interpetation of policy and is further from wikilawyering. I quoted several essays above. One key essay is Wikipedia:fancruft. It states basicly, fancruft is relevant only to a small portion of wikipedias population. Although not a reason for deletion by it self, it does support deletion of the section. The section itself is also poorly written. One such example is this: They also appear in Empires: Dawn of the Modern World. The sentence is short, does not explain any context except to say it is featured. Such a line would better fit in a database or list of games that feature this weapon. Even then, why say The also appear in instead of just listing the game? One can also write a list by saying The appear in: (a list of games). This too would be a type of directory. Also, it is not abnormal to delete such lists, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_computer_and_video_games_that_use_Bink_video is one example. Plus, why is one game not worthy of being mentioned in connection to this game while others are not?

Also, I would like to change the perspective. Right now, we are looking for reasons to delete it, but I would like to look for reasons to include it, as if it were not added yet but someone thinks it should be. Please explain how it is relevant to the weapon. Explain how the information is notable and how is it interesting. If no solid reasons can be found, then the inclusion of the games should not have happened and that is enough reason to remove the games now.

Thank you for a timely reply. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 10:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Pendant, I think there are many people who would vote nay to the inclusion of a advertising bit of a minor reference to an object in even a significant game. If the reference was a major one, fine, but it appears as one unit among dozens/hundreds. It's verifiable that they use guns and knives in many, many games--should they all be listed in the corresponding pop culture sections? How about a list of all the movies where characters are shown with money in the article on money? These might sound ridiculous--and there might still be an argument for keeping the section in this article--but what exactly would the criteria be? Do we set an arbitrary number and include references if it's beneath that? Then do they all disappear when that one more game is found that uses it?

It seems that the people on this talk page (which make up at this point over 50% of the people weighing in) would not be in favor of it. Perhaps a request for comments is in order? That followed by another informal vote might get a consensus going--one way or the other. —LactoseTI^T 13:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I think an RfC would be the fairest course of action since starting an actual discussion has been a trying matter. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 13:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This is an example of a suitable format for an RfC section on an article discussion page.

The inclusion or exclusion of games from the article Hwacha

This is a dispute about if or not games that feature the weapon, a Hwacha, should be mentioned in this article.

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• While i respect your point of view i disagree, in fact, i would be very instructive to a user or reader to find information which is bidirectional instead only monodirectional. References should complement to each other, like Brownian motion and Tyndall effect, and i feel games are part of it. --User:HappyApple 15:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• Information should not be bidirectional simply because one article references another article, the other article should reference the first article. Wikipedia is not a link exchange. --User:OrbitOne 15:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
• The general concensus is this is non-notable, but I admit this is a split between those who say it is and those who say it isn't. But this also falls under a policy, Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not; Wikipedia is not a software directory and what was removed was a list of games, a directory, which featured this weapon. --User:OrbitOne 15:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• You don't remove data unless it's irrelevant, or unverifiable, not according to policy. This isn't a directory of software, it's a paragraph in the section relating the ancient weapon Hwacha to other significant cultural artifacts. If these games were not significant, they would not have articles on wikipedia, and if this was a mere directory it would be different... It's very common to mention references to popular culture in any number of different articles... --User:Pedant 08:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

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