User talk:Swarm

This user replies where s/he likes, and is inconsistent in that respect.	@This user can be reached by Wikipedia email.	~~~~Swarm signs their posts and thinks you should too!

Swarm
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Thanks For The Rollback!

Hello Swarm, DoABarrelRoll.dev has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Go on, smile! Cheers, and happy editing!
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Still mad?

You still mad at me? I still feel bad, and guilty about the whole ordeal. I really do. That's why I tried to apologise to you through Fluquonebam. I'm really sorry :-(

Would you please forgive me? Please? Please talk to me something. At least decline my rollback request. But please would you be my friend? I feel bad and guilty for all that happened between you n me. :-( —usernamekiran(talk) 03:37, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Personal attacks

I expect a response: [1]. Thank you. James J. Lambden (talk) 16:26, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Well? If you're handing out poor blocks for personal attacks like "baloney" then surely unfounded accusations such as "uber creepy," "stalking," and "harassment" merit a response. Mr Ernie (talk) 19:03, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I have not received an answer. I ask again per WP:ADMINACCT: I was attacked and harassed in that same discussion. Anythingyouwant's most recent comments summarize that, as well as the attacks against him. Explain why you choose to ignore it.

No fair reading of that thread or the talk page discussion which prompted it could see Anythingyouwant as aggressor or instigator. James J. Lambden (talk) 01:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

User:SPECIFICO has since turned up on my talk page warning me I may not be "at large" for much longer. What does this mean? Why are you not taking action or responding here any longer? Mr Ernie (talk) 02:16, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

You're framing the fact that I didn't block VM as an admin action in need of some sort of justification. You're presenting me with quotes in which a user accused you of stalking them. I and no other admin is going to issue a block based solely on an accusation of misconduct without investigating the matter. The simple fact of the matter is that I have not devoted the time to investigate your behavior to determine whether the claims are justified or constitute personal attacks. Nor do I plan to. Nor am I required to. I stepped in as an uninvolved administrator to issue a block with a limited scope, I will devote time to explaining the block but I'm certainly not going to get more involved at this point. Swarm ♠ 04:24, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

No. You blocked Anythingyouwant for making personal attacks towards other editors. I presented personal attacks made towards me in that same thread. I list them again:

• Stop acting in an uber-creepy way
• Your behavior has crossed the 'uber creepy' threshold some time ago
• Lambden's obsessive actions and stalking have been creeping the fuck out of me for a few months now

These aren't content or policy complaints – they're offensive personal attacks. You blocked for mild personal attacks. I assume you read the thread where Anythingyouwant made his sanctionable comments before blocking him. If you did you couldn't have missed these. That contradiction requires explanation. James J. Lambden (talk) 04:43, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

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What was the personal attack you blocked for? (I see no diff.) Was a warning out of the question? El_C 04:51, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

• Block has been explained in greater detail on the talk page. Swarm ♠ 07:06, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

What talk page? El_C 07:21, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

How hard would it have been to note the diff of what the block was for? Maybe someone else can help with that, since you clearly seem disinterested in explaining yourself. El_C 07:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

It's on the talk page of the blocked user in question. Is there something further you're asking me for? I have repeatedly explained the block on that page and have posted diffs. I'm not sure how I'm being uncooperative as you're suggesting. Swarm ♠ 08:25, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

No, I'm not seeing it. I'm asking what the user was blocked for: just humour me and let me know what it was. El_C 08:51, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

How can I find which edit the user was blocked for (diff, please), because obviously I still don't know what it was. El_C 08:53, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for any confusion; if you look at User talk:Anythingyouwant#May 2017, I've subsequently explained the block in painstaking detail in my comments there and diffs are provided. Regards, Swarm ♠ 09:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

The confusion continues into what it was. The exact passage. Was it just cut out your spin doctoring? Because if so, I'm just not seeing that rising to personal attack block—maybe a warning. Maybe. El_C 09:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Really, eight diffs?(!) Just quote the most offensive remark, if you will. And please explain why you didn't choose to warn first. I'm a breath away from approving the unblock request, mostly because your block seems rash and not even-handed. El_C 09:36, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

---

I approved the unblock request and unblocked the user. Hope that's okay. I did go through the diffs you provided, but I also gone through the other user's listed items of misconduct. Sorry, but your block was not even-handed and there should have been at least a warning, to both users. In general, please consider adopting a policy of warnings for personal attack blocks to avoid unnecessary drama. And please remember to try to be even-handed in heated disputes. Thanks. El_C 10:13, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

User:El_C thanks for the measured response. I and several other users yesterday begged Swarm to respond appropriately, but he seemed quite content to drop a match on a tinder box and then walk away. Swarm please consider this event with how you approach blocking during heated discussions moving forward. Mr Ernie (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

For the record, I don't think your lecturing tone toward Swarm is appropriate. This block was a reasonable exercise of administrative discretion, and is readily justifiable in that removing Anythingyouwant from the dispute in question immediately improved the situation. I take the point that his personal attacks could have been handled with a warning rather than a block, but I think that argument ignores context (specifically, Anythingyouwant's well-documented decade-plus history of disruptive behavior on partisan political topics). The main argument here seems to be that other editors deserved sanction also, which is really not a reason to unblock Anythingyouwant.

I think this unblock fell short of administrative standards, in that it was undertaken without significant feedback from other uninvolved admins, and really the only input into the discussion around the block has come from people intimately involved in the disputes which led to it. I think that dynamic creates the false impression that Swarm's block was unjustified. More concerningly, the unblock will likely be interpreted as validation by Anythingyouwant, when his behavior was clearly inappropriate and a net-negative in terms of productive discussion. So I think we've succeeded in enabling disruptive behavior while attacking an admin who was willing to address it.

(For the record, I'm commenting here not as an admin, but as an editor; I've played a role in identifying and cataloging Anythingyouwant's inappropriate behavior over the years). MastCell ^Talk 16:28, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Is is really that difficult to look at Anythingyouwant's contribution for the prior week? Here are some highlights.

Personal attacks

• "VM only confirms here that he is a liar"
• "I retract "liar" now that you've been caught at it, and substitute that you're careless and indifferent to facts, insulting beyond belief, and among the most counterproductive and contrary editors on Wikipedia. "
• "As usual, MrX is either delusional or simply doing whatever he can to get rid of me, or both, given that my proposal at the talk page in question was to move a section to which I contributed absolutely nothing."
• "Was MrX lying above? Of course not, he is merely deliberately mistaken; does that sound nicer when I phrase it that way? "
• "MrX, you ought to know better than to put slanted POV-pushing garbage into BLPs, but you do so (or support it) all the time. "
• "you have the gall to come here now to hound me about a bogus 1RR accusation that is as stale as mazoh. NeilN must have been high on something when he vaguely suggested that Ad Orientek might have been mistaken about it."
• "I inserted Grassley into the lead while omitting Feinstein in order to hopefully avoid deletion of the whole thing by POV-pushing leftist editors. "
• Refers to user Neutrality as (non) Neutrality
• "Please stop propagandizing in the lead."

General hostility and politicizing disputes

[2][3]

In my experience, this would be enough for a 6-month-to-indefinite topic ban had it been taken to AE. Swarm's block was both reasonable and proportionate. AYW's conduct has been declining for about two weeks, I suspect because they are frustrated that they have not been able to gain consensus for many of their edits. A block is exactly what is needed when someone's poor conduct escalates without any indication that it will stop.- MrX 15:07, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

The topic in general had been on ANI for a few days, with a separate posting on AN. No admin cared to weigh in (aside from User:MastCell's very thought provoking comment). So after a few days of no admin help, with the situation continuing to escalate, User:Swarm jumps in with a block, no warning, no attempt at defusing the situation (he's perfectly within his rights as an admin to do this), and then accuses someone (seems like me) of having a personal affinity with Anythingyouwant - with no attempt to justify this accusation. I'm sorry that I took issue with this, but I just don't think these actions were the right admin actions. I'll leave this topic behind now - thanks to User:MrX for your comments here too. I disagree with you regarding blocks - I don't think they're ever needed when people get heated over content. Sometimes a few kind words is all it takes. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:02, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

• @El C: I accept that blocking an established editor for personal attacks is controversial and usually attracts an admin sympathetic enough to unblock and I hope the whole episode will have some sort of an impact on AYW's behavior in the future, but had this not been an established editor, a 72 hour block would be considered highly lenient for that level of conduct. It's a little hard to accept that it's normal or acceptable to approve an unblock request that falsely denies any wrongdoing, while you yourself are repeatedly asking what the block was even for. In fact, I've never seen any unblock request in which a user falsely claims innocence approved without any question like that. Have you, El C? Especially when I repeatedly and at great length explained that the block was for a persistent behavioral pattern, and provided evidence of clear personal attacks over the course of multiple days, something this user denied outright in their unblock request and claims a lack of diffs as evidence of their innocence. Yet, when I provided the diffs as was demanded, you said "Really, eight diffs?(!)" It's as if you ignored the clear pattern of personal attacks. Perhaps you just unblocked because I didn't "quote the most offensive remark"? Or because I didn't explain why I didn't warn? (Spoiler alert: I did.) You chose to ignore my repeated explanations of the block and dismiss it as "rash". You chose to ignore the fact that they lied in their unblock request and you still approved it. MrX has kindly done the work of quoting the personal attacks so I don't have to. Did you see all of that? Because you offered no agreement that there was anything wrong with their behavior. Just mine, right?! I explained why I only blocked the one user, why did you dismiss that as a "one-sided block"? Why did you ignore everything I said in justification of the block, while simultaneously accepting an unblock request that literally made false claims about the situation? I continue to stand behind the block and second that the poorly-reasoned unblock approval was highly irregular and suspect, given the fact that I had thoroughly and repeatedly been responding to concerns that were brought up. Swarm ♠ 18:16, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Swarm I think it's time for you to drop this. People don't all agree with your block in the first place. I don't see a good resolution if you insist on continuing to litigate this issue. You still haven't provided any diffs or justification to your claim that some of us have a "personal affinity" with AYW. Mr Ernie (talk) 19:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

I apologized for the "personal affinity" remark in my subsequent edit, and again I apologize, it was not meant to be a specific accusation but an exasperated response to your implication that there was some sort of behavioral issue on my part. However, please don't tell me what to do on my own talk page, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop commenting here. I bear absolutely no ill-will towards you, nor do I intend on continuing an extended argument over this block, but I have every right to respond to the overturning of one of my administrative actions. Swarm ♠ 19:15, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I hope this issue works out to your satisfaction. I'll see myself to the door. Mr Ernie (talk) 19:52, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

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I stand by my unblock. This was a rash and not even-handed block. Personal attack blocks without warnings are problematic in and of themselves. But when you do so in a way that is not even-handed —a fact which you continually fail to address in any meaningful way— it compounds rather than diffuses a dispute. This was an ill-conceived block because of that. It is not how admins are supposed to handle disputes with established editors. Both users needed to be warned; you blocked just the one, and entirely ignored the other. That was a mistake that needed to be remedied. And most editors familiar with the dispute agree. Next time: warn first, block second. And be even-handed. I can't stress that enough. Be even-handed. El_C 00:11, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

See, it's hard to take this seriously when you're lecturing to me in a professorial tone about basic blocking policy and norms and decline to respond to any of the reasons I disagreed with your decision. You involved yourself in this situation without actually weighing the relevant facts, already prepared to take the side of users who were already on his side in an ongoing dispute. You condescendingly and bizarrely repeatedly claimed that you couldn't find any explanation for the block, despite the fact that explanations were plastered all over the relevant user talk page, my big black signature standing out obnoxiously at the end of every comment. You decided to unblock before I could even reply. Let's be real, this was the classic example of a legitimate action against a highly established editor, and as per usual, enough of a kerfuffle was created until an admin comes along and unblocks with a vague, almost nonexistent rationale supplemented by an authoritative and belittling tone. Let me state this again: you ignored the reason for which this block was issued, and accepted an unblock request that literally lied about the situation. If you think that's just no big deal because AYW is "established", it's you who needs the refresher course. Not cool, man. Swarm ♠ 06:26, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Talk about a belittling and condescending tone. No, it is you who are ignoring—ignoring the two pivotal negatives that you're responsible for: no warnings having been issued and not being even-handed with a one-sided block. Yes, I initially had a difficult time orienting myself with the grounds for this block, largely because you, yourself, failed to note what you blocked the user for, to the confusion of multiple editors who were scrambling to find out your rationale. Yes, then you explained at length, finally. But also, it did not detract from nor respond to there needing to have been a warning issued to both users in this rash, un-even-handed block, one which multiple editors familiar with the dispute were questioning. And for good reason. Both users commit personal attacks and rather than warn both and see if that helps, you block the one?(!) I can continue repeating that, and you can continue deflecting and ignoring it. As for "literally lied"—that seems a bit much. I'm not sure it's productive for me to continue to engage you, at this point. El_C 06:58, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

• El_C, when you've finished bullying Swarm, go block some vandals to cool off, otherwise I will start pointing out whose conduct is unbecoming for an admin. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:59, 23 May 2017 (UTC)