Talk:Belagavi border dispute

This article relates to border disputes in Belgaum, a city in India. The Belgaum article links here, and editors are requested to add any matter related to this subject to this article alone, to leave the Belgaum article in an encyclopedic state.

This is not a forum for language-bias discussions or politics. Any such messages will be deleted.

This is an emotionally charged subject-somebody please monitor the article so that is remains NPOV

Kannada POV again?

I request admin to please keep a track of the changes.This article is again going to the hands of Kannada fanatics who are pushing K'taka's POV by emphasising on Anti-Maharashtra things and Mahajan report.Pl be adviced that I have REALLY GOOD citations to counter attack them but I want peace and hence all are requested to keep the article clean and void of any POVs. Thanks Mahawiki 14:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Mahawiki, as you can see above, this talk page has been clearly marked as "Not a forum to discuss language bias and politics". So you calling names such as "Kannada fanatics" , "Kannada POV", "K'taka's POV", "Anti-Maharashtra" etc are uncalled for. Yes, we all need peace, and peaceful edits and strictly need to be civil.

Feel free to add your citations and the corresponding information into the article. If you want to remove anything, please clearly explain why you are removing. Thank you. - KNM ^{Talk - Contribs} 14:45, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Reverts

Few users are changing the matter without any reason.Plz refrain from doing so. Mahawiki 11:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Plz see this difference.A user had removed cited info hence reverted it.

Mahawiki 06:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The diff you have given is actually a revert to User:Achitnis' version, and that has been clearly written in the edit summary. So, the user has not removed any cited info.

Also, if you believe any cited info is removed, please reinsert that information back along with the citation, instead of reverting the article itself. - KNM ^{Talk - Contribs} 16:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The information removed was-

• Attempts were made by Congress president Sonia Gandhi to rekindle discussions on the boundary dispute with the Chief Ministers of Maharashtra and Karnataka and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh <
• On March 15 2006, the Maharashtra government filed a petition in the Supreme Court, citing, in its opinion, "the feeling of insecurity among the Marathi speaking people living in Karnataka, in the recent days". Belgaum district along with Belgaum city continues to be a part of Karnataka state while Maharashtra awaits Supreme Court's verdict.

Hence I am going to revert it back.Plz note that these information was properly cited and verified by many neutral editors including a admin.See Belgaon talk page for more info. Mahawiki 06:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

These information has not been removed. These points are very much present in the article. However, they have been organised under the section "Maharashtra's petition in the Supreme Court".

Here are those information as mentioned under that section.

• In December 2005, attempts were also made by Congress led government at the Centre to rekindle discussions on the boundary dispute with the Chief Ministers of Maharashtra and Karnataka and the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh
• Finally, on March 15 2006, the Maharashtra government filed a petition in the Supreme Court.
• In its petition, Maharashtra staked a claim over Belgaum city citing, in its opinion "the feeling of insecurity among the Marathi speaking people living in Karnataka, in the recent days". Belgaum district along with Belgaum city continues to be a part of Karnataka state while Maharashtra awaits Supreme Court's verdict.

Please note that, all the points that you are claiming as removed, are present in the article now also. It is only reorganized under the section. Hope this clarifies. - KNM ^{Talk - Contribs} 06:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out.Plz check if the citation links are being disrupted in this procedure?

Mahawiki 06:46, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Non English Citations

Citations from other languages are allowed, subject to verification. Please see Wikipedia:Citing sources#When_you_add_content: "Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre. However, do give references in other languages where appropriate." utcursch | talk 07:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Utcursch, I see that you have reverted User:Naveenbm's version to User:Mahawiki's version containing non-English citations. While Wikipedia:Citing sources policy does allow non-English citations, it clearly indicates the following two points.

• Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to other language sources of equal calibre.
• If quoting from a different language source, an English translation should be given with the original-language quote beside it.

Now, does either of the above points apply for the given non-English citations? Is the cited information not available in English-language source? and, the current citations have not been accompanied by English translation along with the original-language quote.

I request your comments and action on this regard. Thank you. - KNM ^{Talk - Contribs} 15:10, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I reverted User:Naveenbm's edits because his only reason for removing citations was that they were not in English[1]. After it was explained that no translations have been provided[2], I didn't revert any citations. utcursch | talk 15:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Utcursch, for the explanation. Can you please make the necessary changes now, based on the fact that translation along with the original-language quote has not been provided? Thanks. - KNM ^{Talk - Contribs} 15:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The demand for translation relates only to direct quotes (so that noone should claim that a person has said something that they haven't really said), not citations in general. Its perfectly ok to use non-English citations, but academic material and mainstream newsmedia is highly preferable to blogs, etc. --Soman 15:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I think Soman is correct on this one. Merely citing info shouldnt be a problem but quotes should be well-sourced and verifiable.Bakaman _Bakatalk 19:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info.I hope this has cleared all the doubts of Kannada editors.I am using citations of reputed sources like Sakaal, Tarun Bharat and Pudhari.

Mahawiki 02:07, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, I feel citations from Vernacular press should not be allowed on such topics. There are enough English dailies which cover such disputes and should be used to cite information. Secondly, Wikipedia:Citing sources#When_you_add_content and Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources have a clear policy on using non-English sources. Citations from these sources is clearly not verifiable when the corresponding translations are not provided. How would you expect an editor of English Wikipedia to read and comprehend Marathi sources? Naveenbm 04:13, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately Maharashtrians are not avid readers of English media hence their views and stand is depicted in Marathi newspapers.We dont have Deccan herald.We have TOI and IE which has nationwide readership and their audience is especially metropolitan english speaking crowd so they dont give Belgaum issue much importance.

Morever the links given by the editor says 'translation is necessary' only when quoting.Since i am not quoting there's no need of translation.morever admin has cleared that their's no need for complete translation but only the part which I am using on this article. Mahawiki 04:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Look, one cannot ban using vernacular press references. If Naveenbm wishes to substitute a Marathi references with an English one, then it is his own task to dig up an English article with same/similar contents. The English wikipedia is used by people from all over the world, and various languages are used as sources. Not everyone can read every language, but one should rely on that for every language there are several editors that can double-check. And lastly, Marathi is not Chinese. If you have a basic understanding of Hindi, you ought to grasp at least the topic of the article. --Soman 07:07, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I never said we should ban vernacular press, all I said was on controversial topics, where there are enough English news sources, they must be preferred to vernacular press. This is inline with Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:Citing sources#When_you_add_content and Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources. I care less if the cited reference is in Marathi or Chinese, as there is no way for me verify them, since I am not editing a wikipedia in any of these languages. If you look at the article edit history, I have added English sources for the sections of the article, I have edited. In this case, the burden of providing the evidence (read Verifiability) lies with the editor who added the content and not me (Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence). Naveenbm 08:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Soman, it is not upto you or me to decide which sources are to be used. WP has a policy about non english sources and it clearly says that they are to be used where english language sources are not available. In this case however, English language sources are readily available. So there is no reason first of all to use Marathi sources. Also if they are used they should be accompanied by translations. And as far as I am concerned, Hindi or Marathi is as good as Chinese or Swahili. They are both foreign languages to me. Also there is nothing to say that if you know hindi you should understand Marathi or vice versa. If that is how it works for you, good for you. Sarvagnya 02:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The so-called readily available English sources are nothing but of deccan herald which rants againt Maharashtra.Since DH is confined to Mysore and few other K'taka cities it can dare to write fanatic pro-kannada material.Whereas Marathi newspapers enjoy a wider readership and Maharashtrians dont really need English newspapers for information unlike Karnataka's newspapers.So to balalnce this article we should use Marathi sources as well.

And regarding this guy Sarvagnya please ignore his rants against Hindi or Marathi.He argues for the sake of it.Mahawiki 05:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Sarvagnya seems to miss the point completly. Yes, if there is a choice between an English source and a non-English source, then the English source should be used. However, it must then be an English source stating more or less the same opinions/facts as the non-English source. You cannot remove non-English references without replacing them with corresponding English sources. --Soman 08:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think above explaination will silence all those u object Marathi citations.Thanks!

Mahawiki 10:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Please understand the point before making such comments. The objection is not on using Marathi citations per-se. You are free to use Marthi citations by providing translations on topics which are not covered by mainstream English media. The whole point here is there are enough english sources on this topic. Just because you don't find something which suits your POV, using a Marathi sources and that too without providing any translations is un-appropriate. Also, let us not divert the discussion by making it a language debate, personal attacks or discussing the merits and demerits of news papers like Deccan Herald. And I don't get this so called logic of You cannot remove non-English references without replacing them with corresponding English sources.. I have already stated that the burden of evidence lies on the editor citing a reference and not on the person disputing the reference ( Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence ) - Naveenbm 15:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Naveenbm is a relatively new user but seems to know every other Wikipedia rule ! The fact then, Mr.Nbm is that there are not enough English sources. The English papers you've cited are Deccan Herald which is a Karnataka paper. Mumbai's English papers, sice they have a wider audience do not cover Belgaon issues that much and hence Marathi references are needed. By the way, Soman has cleared the matter. So Marathi citations will come back. And I will see to it that no Kannada fanatic will be able to unfairly remove it. Mark my words. AryaRajyaमहाराष्ट्र 17:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Since the Marathi users are so keen on adding Mr citations, why dont mahawiki and arya give us a link to one of their articles? Like Soman said, Marathi is not Chinese or Somalian, or Kannada; its very true to its Hindi/sanskrit roots and should at elast be intelligible to a Hindi speaker.Bakaman _Bakatalk 04:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Also Naveen, you missed the actual policy Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Sources_in_languages_other_than_English.

“ However, foreign-language sources are acceptable in terms of verifiability, subject to the same criteria as English-language sources. ”

Bakaman _Bakatalk

Hi Baka, citation I am talking about was emailed to me by none-other than editor of Belgaon Tarun Bharat.I have emailed the pdf file to admins and I am happy to forward it to all who wish to take a look at it.Plz email me as I need to know ur email to send the file to u.Thanks. Mahawiki 05:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Marathi citation and its translation

As demanded by few of kannada editors I am giving translations of excerpts which I am going to use in this article.About the citation- The 'Simaprashna' special edition of Belgaon Tarun Bharat. I have the soft copy of it anyone who wants to have a look please email me.I have already sent the copies to admin Utcursch and Blnguyen.I will be translating and including the matter of citations step by step.please dont start edit war or personal attacks.Please discuss on talk page before editing.Pl feel free to contact admin if u have any problems. Thanks. Mahawiki 10:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Verbatim translation Pg.10

• राज्यपुनर्रचना कायदा १९५६ मुळे सीमाप्रश्न निर्माण झाला म्हणून १९५१ ची शिरगणती आधारभूत धरणे न्यायाचे असताना महाजन ह्यांनी १९६१ ची शिरगणती आधारभूत मानली.

Belgaon border dispute is a result of 1956 state recog. act so 1951 census should have been considered but Mahajan used 1961 census for his decision.

• महाराष्ट्राने १९६१ च्या शिरगणतीवर आधारित नकाशे सादर केले.त्यात बेळगांव शहर हे सर्व बाजूंनी मराठी प्रदेशाने वेढले आहे हे स्पष्ट होते.

बेळगांवच्या पश्चिमेला जंगल आहे हे ही खोटे आहे.

Maharashtra presented maps based on 1961 census which proves that Belgaon city is surrounded by Marathi speaking land on all sides.

Their is no jungle on the western side of Belgaon city.

• बेळगांव शहरात १९५१ साली मराठी भाषिक ५१.२% तर कानडी भाषिक २८.८% होते.

On 1951 Belgaon city had 51.2% Marathi speakers and 28.8% Kannadi speakers.

pg11 (infobox)

• लोकसंख्या व लोकसंख्येचे आकडे टक्केवारी महाजन आयोगाच्या द्प्तरातून घेतले आहेत.

Population and population percentage are obtained from Mahajan commission's repository)

• (pg10-pg11)

प्राथमिक शाळातील विद्यार्थाच्या संख्येशी माझ्या निर्णयाशी काही कर्तव्य नाही असे महाजन वेळगावबाबत म्हणतात तेच महाजन कासरगोडबाबत बोलताना म्हणतात की, कासरगोडमध्ये कानडी शाळा व विद्यार्थी यांची संख्या ल्क्षणीय आहे,मल्याळी भाषिक शाळाच्या संख्येपेक्षा कानडी शाळा व विद्यार्थायांची संख्या अधिक आहे.

Mahajan says 'my conclusions are not based on students of primary schools' about Belgaon but about (his conclusion of)Kasaragod he states that Kasargod has significant Kannadi schools and students more than Malyali schools and students.

• pg.11

बेळगांव शहराचे आर्थिक संबंध केवळ महाराष्ट्राशी नसून ते या परोसरातील कानडी प्रदेशाशी आहेत हे महाजन यांचे म्हणणे बेळगांव म्युनिसिपॅलिटीने आयोगाला पुरविलेल्या ‍ओक्ट्रॉयच्या उत्पन्नावरुन खोटे ठरविले आहे.महाराष्ट्रातून येणारया मालावरील ऑकट्रॉयचे उत्पन्न ८७% तर तर कानडॆ भागातून येणार्या मालावरील ऑकट्रॉयचे फ़क्त १३ % आहे.

According to Mahajan Belgaon city has economical relations with Kannadi land (and not only with Maharashtra).But Belgaon municipality's octroi report to commission says 87% octroi is collected from goods coming from Maharashtra while mere 13% from goods of Kannadi parts.

Mahawiki 10:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

===Table of 1951 census===( pg.10) (M=Marathi K-Kannada O-Others) Belgaum municipal corporation region M.52.5 K25.5 O22.0

Shahapur municipal corporation region M67.0 K23.2 O15.8

Belgaum Cantonment M43.6 K10.6 O45.8

Suburbs M30.9 K21.8 O47.9

TOTAL M52 K23 025

Population and population percentage are obtained from Mahajan commission's repository) Mahawiki 11:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

verbatim translation Pg11-12

• विधानसभा म्युसिनिपॉलिट्या निमसरकारी व बिनसरकारी संस्थांच्या निवडणुकीतील व बिनसरकारी संस्थांच्या निवडणुकीतील लोकेच्छा ही महाराष्ट्रात या प्रदेशाचे विलिनीकरण करावे हे स्पष्ट दर्शविन नाही असे महाजन म्हणतात,पण तेच महाजन कासरगोडच्या निवडणुकीबाबत म्हणतात की आमदार के.महाबळ भंडारी हे कासरगोडच्या मंजेश्वरी विधानसभा मतदारसंघातून तिसर्र्यांदा निवडुन आले आहेत.ते कासरगोड कर्नाटक प्रांतिकरण समितीचे उमेदवार असून कासरगोडचा समावेश कर्नाटकात व्हावा या मुद्द्यावर ते निवडुन आले आहेत.पण बेळगाव विधानसभा मतदारसंघात समितीचे उमेदवार सतत तीन वेळा कानडी उमेदवारांचा दणदणीत पराभव करुन निवडुन आले,त्या बाबत ते म्हणतात की समितीने बेळगावचे महाराष्ट्रात विलिनीकरण या मुद्द्यावर निवडणूक लढवली.कॉंग्रेसने बेळगावचे महाराष्ट्रात विलिनीकरण होउ नये या मुद्द्यवर निवडणूक लढविली नाही.

Mahajan says 'people's wish' in legislative assemblies, municipalities, NGO institutions elections doesnt imply for merger in Maharashtra but about Kasaragode elections Mahajan considers thrice win of MLA k.Mahabal Bhandari from Manjeshwari seat (as a canditate of karnataka prantikaran samiti) on the issue of merger with Karnataka.But about hattrick win of (Maharashtra Ekikaran)Samiti in Belgaum seat against kannadi candidates, Mahajan says although Samiti won the elections on the issue of 'merger with Maharashtra',Congress didnt fight on the against the issue (of merger with maharashtra) !

Mahawiki 11:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

• भौगालिकद्रुष्ट्या महाराष्ट्राशी सलग असलेल्या, मराठी भाषिकांचे स्पष्ट बहुमत असलेल्या या शहरावर महाराष्ट्राचा पूर्ण अधिकार असताना राज्य पुनर्र्चना समितीने जिल्हा हा घटक मानल्याने बेळगाव शहर,निपाणी , बेळगाव तालुका, खानापुर तालुका या मराठी प्रदेशासह कर्नाटकात ठेवण्याची शिफ़ारस केली.हा या भागावर मोठा अन्याय आहे.

Geographically connected to Maharashtra, Marathi speakers in clear majority yet Belgaon city,Nippani ,Belgaon taluka, Khanapur taluka were

made part of Karnataka state because State recog. act considered 'zilla' as a unit.This is sheer injustice to these parts.

• बेळगांव, कारवार, धारवाड आणि विजापूर हे चार जिल्हे १९५६ पर्यंत मुंबई राज्यांतर्गत होते.

Belgaon, Karwar, Dharwad and Vijapur these four zillas were a a part of Mumbai state till 1956.

• त्याअनंतर या राज्यांच्या सीमा आखणीची कामगिरी चौसदस्य समितीवर सोपवण्यात आली.या समितीत २ महाराष्ट्र सरकारचे प्रतिनिधी आणि २ म्हैसूर सरकारचे प्रतिनिधी होते.प्रत्येक मुद्द्यावर त्यांचे मतभेद झाले.मात्र भौगालिक सलगता या एकच मुद्द्यावर त्यांचे एकमत झाले.

States boundry drawing work was given to four member committe.It had 2

members from Maharashtra govt and 2 from Mysore govt.They disagreed on all points but on 'geographical integrity'.

pg12-13

• प्रथमपासून महाराष्ट्र सरकारने खालिल मुद्द्यावर जोर दिला

१.खेडे हे घटक

२.भौगालिक सलगता

३.मराठी किंवा कन्नड भाषिकांची सापेक्ष बहुसंख्या/ ओसाड खेड्यांच्या प्रकरणी त्या खेड्यातील बहुसंख्य जमीनमालक ज्या राज्यात राहतात त्या राज्यात ती खेडी समाविष्ट केली जावी

४.लोकेच्छा

Maharashtra govt has pressed for following points from beginning-

1. 1.Villages as a unit
2. 2.Geographical proximity/integrity
3. 3.Marathi or Kannad speakers 'relative majority' / In case of non-populated villages,it should be merged with that state where the owners of that land reside
4. 4.People's wish

pg13

• महाराष्ट्रातील जी खेडी वरील सुत्रानुसार कन्नड भाषिक ठरतील ती आपणहुन म्हैसुर सरकारला देण्याचे मान्य केले.

According to above points those villages which shall be of 'kannad majority', Maharashtra agreed to hand over to Mysore.

• म्हैसुरने कोणतेही सुत्र मांडले नाही पण जैसे थे च्या भुमिकेला चिकटुन राहिले.

Mysore didnt put forth any formula.It sticked to maintain 'status quo'.

• या संदर्भात १९५७ पासूनच्या विधिमंडळाच्या, नगरपालिकेच्या आणि ग्रामपंचायतीच्या सर्व निवडणूका महाराष्ट्र एकिकरण समितीने लढल्य आणि जिंकल्या.सीमा प्रदेशाचे विलिनीकरण हा एकमेव मुद्दा मतदारांसमोर मांडून त्यांचा कौल मागण्यात आला आणि त्याला मतदारांनी निर्विवादपणे मान्यता दिली.

After (4 member commitee) 1957 all legislative, municipal corporation and grampanchayat elections are won by Maharashtra Ekikaran Samiti.They fought the elections with only agenda of 'merger of border region' to which voters have responded positively and unanimously.

• बेळगाव शहराच्या या(महानगरपालिका) १३५ वर्षाच्या प्रातिनिधिक संस्थेच्या सुरुवातीपासुनचा कारभार मराठी भाषेतूनच होत आला आहे.सर्व रेकॉर्ड मराठी भाषेत ठेवण्यात आले आहेत.

Belgaon city's this (local civic body) institution from 135 years is using Marathi for its working.All records are in Marathi language.

Mahawiki 10:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Karnataka bundh

Hi added info about Karnataka bundh and hence provinding translation-

• http://www.pudhari.com/Archives/oct06/05/Link/rajyavartaE.htm

कर्नाटकाच्या अन्यायाचा सीमावासीय तित्क्याच ताकदीने मुकाबला करतील:आर आर पाटील Marathi speakers in border region will fight Karnataka's injustice with similar zest: R.R.Patil

• http://www.pudhari.com/Archives/oct06/05/index.HTML

बेळगांवात कन्नड वेदिके व इतरही संघटनांच्या कन्नड गुंडानी पोलिस संरक्षणात भगवे झेंडे काढ्ण्याचा भ्याड प्रयत्न करत मराठी फ़लक आणि मराठी भाषिकांच्या दुकांनांवर तुफ़ान दगडफ़ेक करुन हैदोस घातला.मात्र मराठी भाषक जनतेने जशास तसे चोख प्रत्युत्तर देताच या गुंडांना पळता भुई थोडी झाली. Goondas of Kannada Rakshana vedika with other Kannada organisations with the help of police attcked Marathi (saffron) flags and signboards.They also stoned the stores and business establishments of Marathi people and disrupted Belgaon.But when Marathi speakers gave tit for tat those goondas had to run away. Mahawiki 09:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yuvamelava

• http://esakal.com/esakal/10272006/2A0620CB0A.htm

कर्नाटकात न राहता महाराष्ट्रातच जाण्याचा निकराचा निर्धार आज येथे मराठी भाषिकांनी पुन्हा एकदा केला. Marathi people once again resoluted to join Maharashtra (in yuvamelava) मराठी माणसावर एक जरी लाठी पडली तरी त्याचे पडसाद महाराष्ट्रात उमटल्याशिवाय राहणार नाहीत. Atrocities against Marathi people will result in the similar response in Maharashtra.

हा अहवाल अंतिम नसल्याचे सांगून माजी पंतप्रधान राजीव गांधींनीसुद्धा तो बाजूला सारला. ex-PM Rajiv Gandhi kept (Mahajan) report aside and said that it is not 'final '.

कानडीकरणाचा वरवंटा फिरवून किंवा मराठी माणसाची गळचेपी करून लढा थांबणार नाही. Imposition of Kannadi or toubling Marathi people won't end the Belgaon struggle

महामेळाव्याची एक चुणूक दाखविली तर सरकारने बेळगावला उपराजधानी करण्याचा निर्णय मागे घेतला. A glimpse of Mahamelava and Karnataka cancelled its decision of making Belgaon the 2nd capital

• http://esakal.com/esakal/10272006/915110CB00.htm

आज रात्री उशिरापर्यंत सुमारे २०० हून अधिक मराठी भाषिक तरुणांना चौकशीसाठी ताब्यात घेतले आहे. पिरनवाडी आणि मच्छे परिसरातील सुमारे ५६ तरुणांना पोलिसांनी घराघरांतून जाऊन ताब्यात घेतले असल्याचे सांगण्यात येत आह

Till today night police has taken more than 200 people into custody. It is said that police captured 56 youths from their homes at Piranwadi and Macche .

• भगवे झेंडे, फेटा व कपडे असलेल्या प्रत्येकाला ताब्यात घेऊन चौकशी सुरू केली असल्याचे सांगण्यात येत आहे.

Police was interrogating and booking everyone with saffron flags and clothes. Mahawiki 05:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Do we need to add each and every meetings which will be held in both states? I can give citations from Kannada websites just like people do from Mathari websites and can add 100 more meetings and conventions like this. But the question is, is it really necessary?Gnanapiti 22:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Valid point. Don't know what is up next, minutes of meetings of every party meeting of MES?? If some one really wants keep a track of all such meetings and coventions, i suggest they start a new article MES meetings on Belgaum or Meetings by Marathi organizations on Belgaum and add these information there. I see no point in adding information on every other meeting in this article. - Naveenbm 04:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I heard MES is arranging Shivaji Maharaj 'the Great' fancy dress competition for kids in belgaum, khanapur, nipani. Editor of Ladari had told me on the phone. This article is missing that information. Please add it. Sarvagnya 05:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The yuvamelava was an important convention which was attended by over 40,000 people. Its an important event in border row. If Mr.Vatal Nagarajan calls for meet and if such response is received we can obviously include it here.

Sarvagnya i feel sorry for u.Are u angry beacuse 'dhakkan herald' or betal nagraj isnt arranging any fancy dress competition of great kannada comedian 'Rajkumar' or banglorean amma who's oldest freedom fighter of Karnataka!!!

Mahawiki 06:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

also by the way, editor of Ladari had told me that Mahajan gave Belgaum to Karnataka because he didnt get idly and chatnee in pune. this article doesnt mention that. this article is biased. Sarvagnya`

I'm adding some more valuable info for yuvamela section source-http://thatskannada.oneindia.in/news/2006/10/27/mes.html

Translation -

ಎಂ.ಈ.ಎಸ್. ಕಾರ್ಯಕರ್ತರು ಕನ್ನಡ ಫಲಕಗಳನ್ನು ತೆಗೆಯಲು ಮುಂಡದ ಕಾರಣ ಜಿಲ್ಲೆಯ ಖಾನಾಪುರ ಪಟ್ಟನದಲ್ಲಿ ಉದ್ರಿಕ್ತ ಸ್ಥಿತಿ ಶುಕ್ರವಾರ ನೆಲೆಸಿದೆ.

MES activista have created a tense situation by trying to remove Kannada boards from shops in Khanapura of (Belagavi) district.

ಆ ಯುವಕರ ಗುಂಪು ಕಲ್ಲು ತೂರಾಟ ನಡೆಸಿದಾಗ, ಲಘು ಲಾತಿ ಪ್ರಾಹಾರ ಮತ್ತು ಆಶ್ರುವಾಯೂ ಶೇಲ್ ಸಿಡಿಸಿ ಪೊಲೀಸರು ಗುಂಪನ್ನು ಚದುರಿಸಿದರು.

When the mob pelted stones (at public), police had to disperse the mob with lati charge and shells.

ಈ ಸಂದರ್ಭದ ಗಲಬೆಯಲ್ಲಿ 50ಕ್ಕೂ ಅಧಿಕ ಮಂದಿ ಗಾಯಗೊಂಡಿದ್ದಾರೆ. ಪೋಲಿಸ್ ಜೀಪು ಮತ್ತಿತರ ಹತ್ತರು ವಾಹನಗಳು ಜಖಂಗೋಂದಿವೆ.

More than 50 people are injured because of the violence. Number of vehicles including police jeeps are damaged.Gnanapiti 06:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Source : http://kannadaprabha.com/pdf/epaper.asp?pdfdate=10/27/2006

Translation:

ಎರಡು ಕಡೆ ಬಸ್ಸಿಗೆ ಬೆಂಕಿ ಹಚ್ಚುವ ಪ್ರಯತ್ನ ನಡೆದಿದೆ.

They(MES activists) tried to set the bus on fire on two occasions.

ಮೆಲಾವ ಮುಗಿಸಿ ಬರುತ್ತಿದ್ದ ಕಾರ್ಯಕರ್ತರು ಖಾನಾಪುರ ಬೆಳಗಾವಿ ರಸ್ತೆ ಮಾರ್ಗದುದ್ದಕ್ಕೂ ಅಲ್ಲಲ್ಲಿ ವಾಹನಗಳಿಗೆ ಕಲ್ಲು ತೂರಿದ್ದಾರೆ.

Activists returning from convention pelted stones at public all along the way from khanapura to belagavi.

ಮರಾಠಿ ಗುಂಪು ಅಪ್ರಚೋಡೀಕವಾಗಿ ಪೊಲೀಸರ ಮೇಲೆ ಕಲ್ಲು ತೂರಾಟ ನಡೆಸಿದರು.

Marathi fanatics pelted stones at police without any reason just to provoke.Gnanapiti 07:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Source:http://thatskannada.oneindia.in/sahitya/article/241105belgaum.html

ಮಹಾರಾಷ್ಟ್ರದ ಮುಖಂಡರಾದ ಬಾಪಟ್ ಅವರು ಉಪವಾಸ ಸತ್ಯಾಗ್ರಹಕ್ಕಿಳಿದಾಗ ಮಣಿದ ಕೇಂದ್ರ ಸರಕಾರ, ೨೫-ಅಕ್ಟೋಬರ್-೧೯೬೬ರಲ್ಲಿ ಮೆಹರ್ ಚಂದ್ ಮಹಾಜನ್ ಆಯೋಗವನ್ನು ರಚಿಸಿತು

When Maharshtra's leader Bapat resorted on hunger strike, central government formed Mahajan commission on 25th october 1966.

ಮಹಾರಾಷ್ಟ್ರದ ಅಂದಿನ ಮುಖ್ಯಮಂತ್ರಿಗಳಾಗಿದ್ದ ವಿ.ಪಿ.ನಾಯಕ್ ಆಯೋಗದ ವರದಿ ಹೇಗಿದ್ದರೂ ಅದಕ್ಕೆ ನಾವು ಬದ್ದರು ಎಂಬುದಾಗಿ ೧೪.೦೯.೧೯೬೭ರಲ್ಲಿ ಸಾರ್ವಜನಿಕವಾಗಿ ಹೇಳಿಕೆ ನೀಡಿದರು

Maharashtra's then chief minister VP. Nayak announced in public on 14.09.1967 that Maharashtra will adhere to Mahajan's report regardless of the decision taken.

ಮಹಾಜನ್ ವರದಿ ಹೊರ ಬಂದದ್ದೆ ತಡ ಮಹಾರಾಷ್ಟ್ರದ ನಿಲುವು ಬದಲಾಗಿ ಹೋಯಿತು. ಮೊದಲು ಆಯೋಗದ ವರದಿ ಹೇಗಿದ್ದರೂ ಸಮ್ಮತವೆಂದಿದ್ದ ಮಹಾರಾಷ್ಟ್ರ, ವರದಿ ಬಂದ ನಂತರ ತನ್ನ ನಿಲುವು ಬದಲಿಸಿತು.

Maharashtra's stance on Mahajan's report flipped right after the report got released. Earlier Maharashtra said they would agree on Majajan's report. But after the report released, Marathi fanatics changed their stance.Gnanapiti 22:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

also by the way, editor of Ladari had told me that Mahajan gave Belgaum to Karnataka because he didnt get idly and chatnee in pune. this article doesnt mention that. this article is biased. Sarvagnya`

ummm not because of that.Actually he gave away belgaum because he was amused by the laugh-riot movies of Rajkumar! Real impressive he is!!

Mahawiki 08:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Kannada citations

Thanks a lot for ur additions.I am editing and removing POV. If u see the Marathi links I have used only significat part and avoided sundry summaries. If u want to start the war, of course, I will be happy to balance the article.Thanks. Mahawiki 08:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

http://pudhari.com/Archives/oct06/28/Link/stbelgaonA.htm

बेळगाव व खानापूर येथे आयोजित करण्यात आलेल्या महामेळाव्यास मराठी भाषिकांकडून मिळणार्या उत्सफ़ूर्त प्रतिसादामुळे कन्नडिगांचे पित्त खवळले. Huge response to MES melavas at Belgaon and Khanapur has enraged and worried Kannadigas.

शहर म.ए.समितीचे कार्याध्यक्ष दीपक दळवी यांनी रात्री अटक केली. Citya MES leader Deepak Dalvi was arrested yesterday night.

खानापूर येथे युवामेळाव्यावेळी पोलिसांनी केलेला अमानुष लाठीमार व अश्रुधुर याच्या पार्श्वभुमीवर बेळगाव पोलिसांनी मराठी भाषिक कार्यकर्ते हेरुन त्यांना अट्क करण्याचे सत्र आरंभिले आहे. Police brutally beat up melava attendants and used tear gas and now they have started the mission of searching and arresting Marathi speakers १ नोव्हेंबरचा काळा दिन यशस्वी करण्याचा निर्धार म.ए.समितीने केला आहे. MES has resolved to make 1 November Black day successful. Mahawiki 10:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

My translations are perfect. Even I have used only significant part and avoided sundry summaries. You can ask anyone who can read Kannada. I can't take your translations as example because I can't read and comprehend Marathi. By the way what do you mean by whether I want to start the war? When Marathi editors do something, it becomes an edition. When I do some important editions with valid citations, how on earth it becomes a war? Nobody wants to start a war here except your last post, because that's not the intentions. If you are so pulled towards a war, go ahead and fight. God knows with who.Gnanapiti 17:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi,please see my edits after ur Kannada citations.I tried to remove POV but ur friend Sarvagnya reverted it. I dont want any POV whethere Marathi or Kannada on this page. I am forced to add inflammatory words like u did in ur edits. The citations I provided contain ample of POV (just like urs which says MES people were throwing stones to provoke etc) and I could use them as well. Using the word 'allegedly' will be more appropriate instead of passing judgements here.I am making changes and removing both POVs,revert it to original if u disagree. Mahawiki 17:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Kannada flag hoisting!

I am sorry Gnanapiti,I have removed ur Kannada flag section,which is not totally insignificant to find a place here. Mahamelava attended by 50,000+ members, Yuvamelava attended by 40,000 members are different than a mob of 15-16 people hoising Kannada flag in a taluk panchayat office.This is what I call edit war!I can write such dozens of meets and occasions!I dont know what is ur motive behind this addition.I hope u will come with some serious and significant additions. Perhaps we should see a admin now!! Mahawiki 20:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Mahawiki, please do not remove the information without having a consensus in discussion page, especially when the information is supported with the citation. I have just added back the information. Thanks. - KNM ^Talk 20:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Mahawiki, you can't decide the significance of an issue all by yourself. I consider this to be a major issue and that's why I added this in the article. Please refrain from removing the cited info which I edited with all the efforts.Gnanapiti 20:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

KNM, this additions are in bad-faith. There is certainly no problem adding pro-Karnataka stuff and to balance this article.What Gnanapeeti has added is just a revenge of my edits! the citations I provided earlier contains such incidents as well. You shouldnt add pro-Kannada stuff for the sake of it.Karnataka session and bundh have been taken into account.I hope Kannada editors will co-operate and add some significant stuff than this flag hoisting stuff!It certianly doesnt deserve to be a subsection. And about consensus i really wonder how it can be reached when there are few alleged sockpuppets in actions.I can add similar stuff in abundunce. Ball is in ur court!!Gnanapiti,I will wait for more 6 hours i hope u will contribute seriously with meaningful stuff,unless I will be forced to add such sundry pro-Maharashtra details too. Mahawiki 20:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Mahawiki, I'm serious. Consider this as a warning. I'm going to report against you to mods if you keep calling me and other editors as sock puppets. You got to prove before you claim something. Who are you to decide whether the stuff added by me are meaningful or not? You don't own this article. If this is a minor issue, then it won't be reported in a major news portal like OneIndia which is not at all related to Karnataka. Gnanapiti 20:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

nanapiti, keep your warnings to yourself. There is a sockpuppetry case going on against you and your comrades/socks. BTW, OneIndia is not a major portal. Anyway, we'll see what to do. AryaRajyaमहाराष्ट्र 04:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)