Talk:Sultanate of Hobyo

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Date Hobyo sultanate was founded, the red flag and coat of arms.

The sultanate of Hobyo was founded in 1884. This is congruous with the primary academic sources available and the historical timeline of Yuusuf 'Ali, the founder of the sultanate, who was involved in a bitter political tussle in the Majjerten interior in the years prior to 1884. As a resolution, 'Ali left his home region for the coastal town of Hobyo and established the sultanate of Hobyo. Where David Lea's 'A Political Chronology of Africa' offers a comprehensive look at African history but misses the mark with regards to the specific date of the formation of the sultanate, WK Durrill's 'Atrocious Misery: The African Origins of Famine in Northern Somalia, 1839-1884' provides a detailed account of the Majjerten sultanate, the rivalry between Yuusuf 'Ali and his cousin (the king of the Majjerten sultanate,) and how Yuusuf 'Ali fled to establish the sultanate of Hobyo in 1884. I believe this particular scholarship is more authoritative with regards to the inception of the sultanate of Hobyo.

As a side discussion, the flag and coat of arms were unsourced and so was the map showing the alleged territory of the sultanate. Can a source please be provided or can it otherwise be left removed until such a time a source is provided. Thank you Originoftruth (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Firstly the sultanate was founded in the 1870s this is clearly presented in the same source you've quoted called "A Political Chronology of :Africa" used before you reverted the stable version of the article.

Text corncerned: 1870s: Kenaadiid returned to the Majeerteen, accompanied by a Hadhrami army, he conoured the local Hawiye clans, and :created the Sultanate of Hobyo

This is a direct quote from the source provded. As you can see it clearly states the sultanate was founded in the 1870s, not 1884.

Found another source stating the exact same thing, that Sultanate of Hobyo was established in the 1870s https://books.google.ro/books?:id=0xzLttlApVwC&pg=PT29&lpg=PT29&dq=sultanate+of+hobyo&source=bl&ots=sQxAkxP9ja&sig=D0YH3c2qCD_W45QwxVmIEr3JVfI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjo9_mMrdPbAhVDAcAKHYOqAjY4FBDoAQg5MAQ#v=onepage&q=hobyo&f=false

I think this is conclusive evidence that justified it being in the article.

Secondly, the coat of arms is supported by this source from the UK depicting the various flags in the history of Somalia, there source is here :https://www.flagmakers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Flag-of-Somalia-A-Brief-History-Download.pdf. As you can see at the bottom of the :page it clearly depicts the Sultanate of Hobyo and the current coat of arms correctly used in this article, Although not sourced in the past, :it clearly is sourced as i've added the source in to support it now.

Pepsmiand (talk) 14:13, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Hello and thank you for the swift reply. I think you might have misunderstood the aim of my discussion. I brought up 'A Political Chronology of Africa' initially to call into question the date that it states the sultanate was founded - which is a diminutive part in that comprehensive encyclopedia. I presented what I believe to be a more authoritative piece of scholarship that dealt with Yuusuf 'Ali more intimately and whose entire focus was the region to which the sultanate of Hobyo belonged, as opposed to, the totality of African history. If you read 'Atrocious Misery: The African Origins of Famine in Northern Somalia, 1839-1884' pages 304/305 it says the following,

"To Revoil, the Majeerteen country appeared "constantly at war."
These battles involved single lineages and villages and were smaller and less
organized than those of 1868, probably because the struggle between the 'Ismaan
and 'Ali Suleymaan lineages had become open warfare by the end of 1880. By
December, 'Ali Suleymaan leaders had accepted protectorate status and perhaps
military aid from the Italian government. In addition, Yuusuf 'Ali claimed
twenty-five hundred to three thousand new client-warriors who had shared in the
booty from the two shipwrecks that his clan looted. 'Ali Suleymaan leaders,
therefore, were able to attack 'Ismaan from their base at 'Alula. In retaliation, the
sultan attacked 'Alula and succeeded in taking it on January 15, 1881. But Yuusuf
'Ali and his army escaped. They retreated into the adjacent Siwakron territory
where Yuusuf 'Ali convinced the Siwakron to join him against 'Ismaan. Worse
still for the sultan, Yuusuf 'Ali persuaded the large 'lise Mahamuud lineage
to participate in a general attack to surround and destroy 'Ismaan and his
army. The 'lise Maahamuud dominated the Nugaal Valley, and their chief,
nominally subordinate to the sultan, controlled his own force of fifteen hundred
horsemen.
Whatever the exact outcome of these battles, the 'Istnaan Mahiamuud and 'Ali
Suleymaan'lineages reached a military stalemate by 1883 and finally compromised.
'Ismaan confirmed Yuusuf 'Ali's position as 'Alula's legitimate chief. In return,
Yuusuf 'Ali accepted the sultanate's paramountcy, presumably agreeing to abide
by an 'Ism'aan monopoly of booty. To ensure the deal, the sultan married Yuusuf s
daughter, Aisha. Each would reign supreme in his own sphere, but Yuusuf 'Ali
temporarily disclaimed greater ambitions because 'Ismaan held his daughter as a
pawn. This solution did not last long. In 1883, with Italian support, Yuusuf 'Ali
organized a sultanate of his own at Hobyo on the south coast below the Majeerteen
border, which left many in the 'Ali Suleymaan lineage stranded at 'Alula and
especially vulnerable when 'Ismaan moved his permanent residence there"

Not only has this history dealt with Yuusuf 'Ali personally but it also provides specific dates and a detailed timeline of the events prior to the founding of the sultanate of Hobyo, which would have been impossible in "the 1970s" as Yuusuf 'Ali was fighting a war with his cousin for leadership of the Majjerten sultanate. Only after this war, and as compromise did 'Ali flee to establish the sultanate of Hobyo in 1884. The references that form this timeline, which places Yuusuf 'Ali in the early 1880s in the furthest most corner of the Horn of Africa, away from Hobyo, fighting a war for leadership, are from British and Italian colonial and non-colonial figures. At the bottom of the pages 304 and 305 you can find these references. To me this is more exhaustive and credible than a passing mention in an encyclopedia. I hope you and other curious readers will agree.

If you disagree however with my reasoning or with what is written in 'Atrocious Misery: The African Origins of Famine in Northern Somalia, 1839-1884' (which was a reference for another item already in this wiki) then please do share.

As for the flag and the coat of arms: 'flagmakers' leads me to a commercial website that makes flags. Also, I could not find the plain red flag which is purported to be the flag of the sultanate - not on flagmakers nor anywhere else for that matter. The coat of arms would be better presented in my opinion as an emblem, seeing as it was not used anywhere except on letters - this is a small detail of course. The red flag however should be removed, in order to be as factually correct as possible.

Originoftruth (talk) 00:40, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

This is a direct quote from the Source i've cited , A Political Chronology of Africa -> "1870s Kenaadiid returned to the Majeerteen, accompanied by a Hadhrami army, he conquered the local Hawiye clans, and created the Sultanate of Hobyo ". Its not a matter of me disagreeing, the source explicitly states Sultanate of Hobyo was established in 1870s and therefore I've included it in the article. Your 'reasoning' is just that, reasoning, there is no source provided prove sultanate of hobyo was established in 1884 on the other hand, there is sourced content outlining explicitly that the establishment of the sultanate happening in the 1870s, I don't think the source referenced can be any clearer and i've added it into the article

Pepsmiand (talk) 18:49, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I think my 'reasoning' is entirely valid and it is how consensus is formed on the talk pages of wiki articles about key facts but what you're implying is that you are not interested in constructive discussion. Which by the way is no discussion at all, so refrain from disruptively editing the wikipedia unless you actually bother to address the point of the discussion and explain why your 'source' is convincing except for the fact that you've used the word source and made some text bold. Originoftruth (talk) 14:04, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Originoftruth and Mohamed958543 are likely to be sockpuppts. They are removing content they don't like. Pepsmiand Brazal5 (talk) 08:26, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

That's a outlandish accusation. And ironically, if one looks at the history of this article, there is a succession of fishy individuals hellbent on reverting (and possibly edit warring) the article back to a "stable version". A few of these individuals have been banned for edit warring and sock-puppetry in other Somalia-related wikis.

As I have noticed, these individuals appeal to authority by using buzzwords such as "stable version" and try smear others as sock puppets with the apparent aim of shutting down debate. Accusing me -- without evidence -- of sock-puppetry will not get me banned for the simple reason that I do not sock puppet, but it does make you look a part of this aforementioned cohort. Also, I only remove something when it is not reasonably evidenced. Maybe it is you who doesn't "like" that. I have started a discussion here on the talk page only to discuss some key facts about the Hobyo sultanate. If you cannot contribute to this discussion, refrain from making disruptive charges.

Pepsmiand, I will go ahead and make the minor edits with regards to the emblem, but I will wait on you to provide more information about the plain red flag and share your view with me about the date the Hobyo sultanate was founded. Looking forward to it. Originoftruth (talk) 07:54, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually, never mind about the coat of arms/emblem. It is described as an emblem already within the source of the image Originoftruth (talk) 08:00, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Separate discussion between Mohamed958543 and Brazal5

Stop adding unsourced information. I have only undid the sources information you have removed. I also removed where it says “Preceded by majerteen sultanate” it’s not sourced and it is not true, majerteen did not rule hobyo Before hobyo sultanate was established.

You should also stop writing none sense in my personal user page accusing me of being “sock puppet”. You’re probably the same sock puppet named “Zakaria” who has been busted over 30 times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohamed958543 (talk • contribs) 12:16, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Hobyo sultanate map.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:06, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Flag/Map/Coat of arms

Similar to the Majeerteen Sultanate article, the flag, map, and coat of arms provided should be removed as they are not referenced in credible sources. The citation provided [1] has no mention of a map, flag, or coat of arms. Koodbuur (talk) 20:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The map is based on the description provided in the book. The source regarding the flag can be found in the image source. The source regarding the emblem can be found in the notes of the articles. Felinepaw (talk) 20:05, 27 May 2020 (UTC)