User talk:Mutt Lunker

I'm sorry to delete MacDon't worry. It's a mistake.

Sorry, that's a mistake. I accidentally deleted it because I thought I could erase it because I didn't need it. I'm sorry. 도성전 (talk) 14:09, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

John Martyn edit

Hi Matt, The source for the John Martyn edit is English births, deaths and marriages on Ancestry.Com. His mother Beatrice Elizabeth Jewitt's birth was registered in South Croydon(1921). Her mother's maiden name was Hawkins. As both Hawkins and Jewitt are unquestionably English surnames there seems no reason to believe in Martyn's whimsical claim to Belgian Jewish ancestry. Regards Rae — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rae Donaldson (talk • contribs) 07:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

That's an interesting hypothesis and may well be worth pursuing but a fundamental policy of Wikipedia is that original research can not be included. If the record is definitely for Martyn's mother, those details can be included in the article: birth name, date etc. but any extrapolation from that which is not included in a reliable published source can not. Also, I'm sure you're aware of people of immigrant backgrounds adopting new surnames, for reasons of assimilation, ease of spelling or pronunciation, alterations or mis-spelling in official records, so this can not be conclusive in itself. You might also find Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth of interest. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:00, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I've added citations from the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and Graeme Thomson's acclaimed and recently-published biography which support his mother's Belgian birth and Jewish ancestry, the latter ref in some detail. The full name and birth date are also different to what you state. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:51, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

John Martyn

Hi Mutt, So, if I understand you correctly, I could order copies of the relevant birth certificates and that wouldn't be admissible as proof that Martyn was having us on about his mother's identity? Not that it matters so much to me that I would ever do that. I guess I'll just have to leave this one as it is! If I ever see a copy of Thomson's book I'll be interested to see what proofs he offers in support of Martyn's claim. Regards RaeRae Donaldson (talk) 18:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

It would be admissable as proof purely of the actual details on it - name, d.o.b. etc. I don't see how this would say anything about whether she had Belgian Jewish ancestry or not. What details are given? Speculation about not having the right sort of surname is not convincing and clearly does not trump mention in two reliable sources. Would you, for instance, dispute Arnold Brown is Jewish on account of his name? Did you see the refs I provided and the quote from Thomson? Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:32, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

John Martyn

Mutt, you may not see how official certificates prove ancestry but unfortunately that's often all we have to goRae Donaldson (talk) 07:32, 1 August 2020 (UTC) on. If I got a marriage certificate for Martyn's parents and then followed the maternal line back through both the mother and father to birth certificates for both of them and discovered nothing Belgian-or indeed inferably Jewish-I'd say we were onto something, wouldn't you? Yes, of course I'm aware that people change their names in order to fit in but I think you'll find this is less common in the UK than it is in the United States where, for example, the surname Smith is as likely to be of German as of British/Irish origin(Brown/Braun is another case). In this part of the world, the idea that Smith might indicate German ancestry would be regarded as fantasy without some reputable proof to the contrary. Regards Rae Rae Donaldson (talk) 07:32, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

What we have to go on in Wikipedia is summed up as: "we publish the opinions only of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves".

I should have said earlier that, as this discussion regards the content of the article, the more suitable place to have it would be the talk page of the article itself so that the whole community is aware and can participate, should they wish. If you have anything further to say on the matter, please direct it there rather than here from now on.

Also, it isn't necessary, and probably best avoided, to put a new section heading every time you leave a post if it is just a continuation of an existing thread. Readability of the thread is aided by indentation, using colons, per this guideline. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:07, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

names/terminology

Thank you, Mutt Lunker. On my mother's side, many are Scots for the most part, maternal and paternal, originally from Isle of Skye and Edinburgh. My relatives on that side use names/ terms interchangeably. But it is fair to remind contributors of wiki's protocols (while lingering on Samuel Butler's explanation of a definition: the enclosing a wilderness of ideas within a wall of words). Prattlement (talk) 14:19, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Dunoon

Hi @Mutt Lunker: It is policy to put references to notable people, even in these types of lists and has been more ten years, now. It don't how many times, people have complained to me, add a reference. Please do not remove the tag. scope_creep^Talk 10:48, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

There was references on it before it was reformatted. scope_creep^Talk 10:50, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok, as this regards the article, please post on its talk page. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:56, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I've elaborated here. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Fit

I don't mean to nitpick, but it's not exclusively a North American English use of the word. Just trying to help avoid other unnecessary changes.

Please see:

https://www.lexico.com/definition/fit

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fit

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/fit_1

Apologies for using revert and missing the commas, no offense was intended.

Jonathon A H (talk) 02:21, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, having checked six online British dictionaries, I think I found two or three that indicated support for the existence of "fit" rather than "fitted" as an acceptable form in this context. The others did not. The 3 you note may have been them; the others were Collins, Chambers and Longman. You were perfectly justified in reverting that part of my edit, per WP:ENGVAR/MOS:TIES, hence my compliance, per my edit summary. I would have done the same and regularly make reversions of pointless MOS edits that have been made in either direction. That said, unless I have missed the pertinent sections, on re-checking the dictionaries you list, they simply don't note any regional variation in the term used, rather than state that they are universally commonplace. The usage is not usual in British English and at best sounds colloquial, as you may have discovered elsewhere on the internet. I can't vouch for the reliability of the other two sites but the AMA style guide ought to hold some weight: [1], [2], [3].

By the same token, those dictionaries will have made you aware of the valid use of "fitted" in the context and that the characterisation of my edit as "gramatically incorrect" was inaccurate; "unnecessary" I have no dispute with, having since researched the matter. It may have been unintentional but a straight reversion of my edit and classifying it as minor would indicate your belief that mine was uncontentiously vandalous or not in good faith; not something to dish out casually. Thanks for the apologies. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:47, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

FSoS

Why did you revert my edit on United Kingdom page? The First Secretary of State is the second most powerful political office in the UK Government, so I don’t get why it shouldn’t be there? Ciaran.london (talk) 22:36, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

My primary reason was that you had already made this edit and been reverted. Per WP:BRD, you have been bold, you have been reverted, please now discuss it at the article. Do not make the edit again unless and until you have gained consensus to do so. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:11, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Barack Obama

Can you give me the name, date and place of birth of President Obama's Scottish ancestry. I'm of Ancient Egyptian ancestry btw. I don't have any evidence to prove that, but I can just claim it I guess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reefyj (talk • contribs)

As you are aware, having blanked them, there are numerous citations for all aspects of his ancestry, including those attested to be of Scottish ancestry.

I'm not sure if by your logic one has to be born in Scotland to be Scottish American, whether having a Scottish parent qualifies you but presumably having a Scottish grandparent does not count. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:52, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Facts

I won't bother editing Wikipedia anymore as people like you are clearly not interested in factual accuracy, only hearsay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reefyj (talk • contribs)

Noted. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:55, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Paul Sloane page

Your comment at the top of the page asks for a link to show he is an author. The requested link in your note is a Google Books Link.

I have added the Google Books link

You have now deleted it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gjones19 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

No, that isn't what it says. Per the links given (the text in blue) it is a proposal that the article be deleted on the basis that it fails to demonstrate that the Wikipedia:Notability criteria are fulfilled, as laid out at the WP:AUTHOR notability guideline. Simply proving that someone is a published author is not sufficient to fulfil WP:AUTHOR and that is already established for this subject anyway, per the Selected publications section. Look at the criteria at WP:AUTHOR to see what would be required.

Do you also edit as User:Badly~enwiki? Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:49, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Gjones19 The notability page asks for significant coverage. The delete panel asks for evidence - including a link to "books" from Google.

The link I provided was from Google Books as requested.

That links shows significant numbers of books.

You can't ask for significant coverage of notabality and then say that a significant number of books on Google Books is not acceptable when the delete panel itself asks for Google Books.

I do not edit under any other name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gjones19 (talk • contribs) 17:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, there is no further need to establish that he has authored books. That is already shown amply in the article and it is not what is requested.

The links given in the panel are Google searches for potential sources (newspapers, news, scholarly articles etc.) which may establish that the subject has received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject. All of these hits for books are by the subject himself, so do not (presumably) cover him as a subject, are not secondary etc. or independent of him. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Gjones19 The links in the Delete panel SPECIFICALLY link to Google Books. A listing on Google books is independent of the subject. The page has external links independent of the subject as well. —Preceding undated comment added 06:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Have you followed the links I've provided and read the guidelines?

Yes, when a WP:PROD template is placed on an article it automatically does a series of searches based on the article's title and displays a link to those search results in the panel. Then it's just a click away to check if any of the automatically-generated results provide "significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject". All of the hits are to Sloane's own books which are primary sources and are presumably about his subject rather than him; as far as I can see there are no secondary sources amongst the hits, let alone ones that provide significant coverage of Sloane as a topic.

Instead, all that the search engine has produced is proof that he has written books which is neither in dispute nor sufficient to establish WP:AUTHOR. What is required is that other authors and publications, independent of him, are talking about him. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Scots Wikipedia

Hi! If you're interested, the Scottish Wikipedia seems to be in need of experienced Wikipedians who can speak Scots. The news made the rounds today that nearly half of the articles were created by someone who doesn't seem to have that much experience with the language, so a cleanup effort may be needed. More details are at this slightly hyperbolic Reddit thread. Please let me know if you're interested in helping out! They're also looking for administrators for the wiki, too, as a side note. Enterprisey (talk!) 21:21, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

It's years since I've been active there, though I was aware that, since then, only non-Scots were making signiciant contributions, with predictable results. The Reddit thread rings true to me, I'm afraid; it doen't sound hyperbolic. I think the best first step would be persuade that editor to decease from editing in a language they clearly have insufficient, if any, grasp of, then roll back all their contributions, even if that means mass deletions of the bulk of articles. No specialist knowledge of the language would be required for that initial stage. Any finer adjustments at this stage would be to polish a turd, I'm afraid. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your response and the advice! If we do implement such a rollback – should be pretty easy, technically speaking – I was wondering if you had any further suggestions for improving the wiki after that. Or, if you were interested in maybe contributing a bit more time to the wiki – even just having a native Scots speaker supervising the cleanup work would be immensely helpful, I think. Enterprisey (talk!) 07:27, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm open to taking any broad queries that require a native speaker that may come up in the clean-up process but I don't feel inclined to the donkey work or to devote large quantities of time.

It may initially seem odd from someone who regards vernaculars in general as vital to the culture of communities and who speaks, writes and reads in their own on a daily basis but I'm unconvinced about the worth of directing significant effort towards a work of reference for people who already have a work available to them, orders of magnitude larger in its material, better composed and with much more scrutiny upon it, in a lingua franca that they are all also fluent in. It's a lot of work to construct something which, as a tool, people have available to them in abundance already. The current version is a ludicrous word-by-word-from-a-dictionary embarrassment with an emphasis on artificial maximal differentiation of the vocabulary from English when a term common to both tongues may be the more suitable and commonly-employed. It is not Scots; I'd much rather see a radically slimmed down version with integrity. If a well-written Scots Wikipedia with anything approaching the scope of the English one could be magicked into existence, that would be fantastic but realistically I can only see it being very small in scope if the articles are to be well-written, or larger but crap like it is now. Sorry, but that's the reality of the situation. I'm not sure if it adds anything further but I talk about the same here. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I've just seen this by the way. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:26, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• I also just came here to suggest you may want to RfA there, based on requests at meta to get more Scots speakers; I recognised your username in the list of Scots and Scottish English userboxes, so thought I'd ask. I know you've said you're against it, but if you're not interested in the Scots Wikipedia being deleted, maybe think on it some more? Kingsif (talk) 23:22, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Noted. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)