Talk:Melanin

Hi I have white spots on my skin and I was wondering if eating carrots would help me get rid of these. I have gotten them befor and stayed out of the sun as much as possible and they went away and now I have gotten some more but this time they won't go away no matter how much I stay out of the sun.

If you have any ideas to help please let me know.   my email address is oreo@iland.net  thanks Laura

Wikipedia is not a medical facility, but a dictionary! -FredrikM

Wikipedia is not a place to seek medical advise, but nor is it a dictionary. Wikipedia is, believe it or not, an encyclopedia. -- Hadal 16:03, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Observation

It is estimated that this color evolution in an immigrated populace takes approximately 10,000 years to complete.

If this is true, then wouldn't Native Americans that lived in northern Alaska/Canada and Tierra del Fuego have evolved lighter skin by now? To my knowledge, the Americas have been populated for about 10,000 years and for the most part, have the same skin hues. Something must be incorrect... --Bletch 22:39, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Maybe it was selective breeding? :P lysdexia 00:27, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Melanin Theory and melanin in biotech research

See my recent additions to Black supremacy for some provocative info re the melanin as a superconductor, Melanin Theory, and also for brief references to melanin in biotech. I think all this should be included this article. I'm thinking of doing a separate article on the Melanin Theory in conjunction with (or, possibly, separate from) the Cress Theory on Color and Confrontation. People think Minstrel show is potentially explosive. It oughta be interesting to see the reactions to this on Wiki. deeceevoice 12:01, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• http://www.csicop.org/si/9201/minority.html Wareware 01:12, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've seen the article on "scientific illiteracy" to which the above link connects. In that particular context, I've already noted that the Melanin Theory has little credibility in mainstream thought in Black supremacy. I'll likely do something similar here -- just in greater detail. In any event, Melanin Theory certainly bears mentioning in this article on melanin -- pro and con.

I could insert more information on melanin here as a superconductor, but -- again -- I'd like someone, perhaps more familiar with the subject than I, to do so. As it stands, this article is far too limited and addresses melanin pretty much only in the context of skin pigmentation. It needs to be broadened and brought into the 21st century. Research into nanotech and plastic electronics applications has been ongoing for some time now. [In fact, I think the 2000(?) Nobel Award in science went to people involved in this kind of research.] I've already inserted information in the Superconductor article on melanin -- but only a brief blurb. Hopefully, the more technically knowledgeable will flesh that out also (no pun intended). I left one contributor to Superconductor a note soliciting input. Unfortunately, most of the major contributors to Superconductor are anonymous -- but, hopefully, someone with some expertise in the field will drop by there and here. deeceevoice 03:38, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oh, goodness! One cognitive glitch, and all these changes! Anyway, I meant to say "semiconductor" -- not "superconductor." (See talk in Black supremacy for more information. And the additions regarding melanin are actually in organic semiconductor. I still intend to do a section on Melanin Theory here and, if no one else does it, a section on melanin research and biotech applications -- one of these days. deeceevoice 12:18, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cleanin' It Up

I fixed up the beginning a little to add some information about what melanin actually is. I also deleted a lot of irrelevant verbal diarrhea from the end. This article is garbage. It needs a lot of work. Babajobu 18:38, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've restored the section on melanin and race bias. There are people who think it's a fit topic -- and an important one -- for this particular article. You seem to think so, too. Otherwise, I don't think you would have stuck the sentence about bias on the end of the introductory information. If you have constructive comments, please offer them -- but "verbal diarrhea" is not helpful. Nor is deleting a section wholesale with nothing constructive to offer in its stead. deeceevoice 19:10, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The section on social and rase bias is psychotic. It's about as relevant to an article on melanin as a lengthy discussion of the biochemical properties of melanin would be to an article on the KKK. I saved the first sentence because I think some mention is warranted of the the fact that variable skin melanin distribution has an impact social organization. But a wacked-out, meandering diatribe that includes expostulations on the comparative prevalence of various race-based ideologies, the structural context within which such ideologies are expressed, comparisons of different country's hierarchical structures, et cetera et cetera et cetera ad nauseum??!! Holy Sh1t!! You gotta be kidding me!! But hey, keep it. I'll stay out of the ethnic pissing contests, and leave them to those who get off on such things. In fact, I think you should expand that section. Maybe add some pictures of lynchings. As for me, I'll throw down the beginning of a section on eumelanin. As for the link between Parkinson's and melanin concentration...I've not heard of any such thing...regardless, melanin concentration in the substantia nigra and in the skin are not correlated. Norwegian albinos have the same melanin concentration in the substantia nigra as do Ghanain non-albinos. Babajobu 02:03, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Did a clean up of this "verbal diarrhea". Wareware 05:41, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As someone said recently, "take a chill pill." This section has been substantially restored. Other contributors clearly believe a brief discussion of race bias is in order in connection with melanin; it simply makes sense and existed unchallenged since early October. But, gee, all of a sudden someone black decides to contribute -- and the subject is somehow suddenly no longer relevant? And no one is saying here that melanin concentration in the skin and Parkinson's disease are related; I don't know that they are. (I searched for info on the Internet, but couldn't find anything.) But keep in mind this is not an article about melanin only in the skin, but about melanin, in general. That Parkinson's is marked by a degeneration of melanocytes in the substantia nigra is a medical fact -- and, in fact, is one of the hallmark characteristics of the disease. So, the link to Parkinson's is also restored. deeceevoice 09:37, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This is an article on melanin and its properties. The prolonged discussion on race bias, racism, various kinds of supremacy belong in each of their articles, respectively. The article on race already has a dicussion on various kinds of apartheid, so it's extraneous to write even more of that here. No need to drag on this "verbal diarrhea." A mention about them and links to the related articles, which both have more in-depth discussion and relevancy, is enough. What's so hard to understand? Wareware 10:49, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

My ability to comprehend is not the issue; we have a disagreement. Apparently, other contributors to this article thought the information worthy of inclusion -- as do I. Will not get into a revert war over this. I'm confident that as time develops others will agree that color bias warrants more than the truncated treatment of the last edit. I'm patient. I can wait. :-p deeceevoice 12:02, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There are no melanocytes in the substantia nigra. The melanin in the substantia nigra is a byproduct of dopamine metabolism, because dopamine is synthesized and utilized in the SN and a form of melanin is one of the metabolites of this process. Because there is no melanocyte-mediated production of melanin in the SN, levels of melanocyte activity as observed in skin color don't correlate with what's going on in the SN. Parkinson's disease is a result of breakdown in dopamine synthesis and metabolism. It has nothing to do with melanin in the SN, except that depigmentation of the SN is a consequence of failure to go through the process of dopamine metabolism. I would be open to expanding the "race" section of this article...it just needs to be more tightly relevant. Babajobu 14:37, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So, you've stopped your scatologic ranting, 'eh? :-p Thanks for the clarification. I knew (because I read it recently online; other than that, I don't know squat about melanin & Parkinson's) that dopamine produces the melanin in the substantia nigra and that iron binding to the melanin has something to do with the disease process. But it didn't dawn on me that melanin actually could exist without the presence of melanocytes, that it is actually localed in the neurons themselves in the substantia nigra. But that's precisely why I've been hoping that someone with expertise would contribute. It does seem, however, that -- at least according to what Wareware contributed in the black supremacy discussion -- that there is a suspected correlation between darker skin pigmentation and a resistance to Parkinson's. If you have other information, though, please contribute it where appropriate. deeceevoice 18:45, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, well I enjoy ranting but have gotten to do ever-so-little of it thus far on Wikepedia because of the whole infernal "Wikiquette" thing. I couldn't resist the opportunity to indulge a little. :) Here's the dilly (or part of it) on dopamine, melanin and Parkinson's. Dopamine and melanin have very similar structures, and dopamine metabolism produces a form of melanin called "neuromelanin," which is different from eumelanin, pheomelanin, et cetera, but still certainly a melanin. Neuromelanin gradually accumulates in the neurons of the substantia nigra throughout a person's life. Kids have very little, elderly people have lots. When people get Parkinson's they start losing their neuromelanin, and their SN goes pale. The fairly recently-published histology and pathology books I'm using just take it for granted that the loss of neuromelanin is basically a side-effect of dopamine depletion. But I may have been a little too confident in assuming that that's the final word. I just checked the National Library of Medicine website and a bunch of new research is turning up more immediate connections between neuromelanin and Parkinson's than had been suspected. Also, it looks like they're also getting promising results in studies on therapies that involve endocrine manipulation of neuromelanin. Still, all of this specifically involves neuromelanin in the dopaminergic neurons of the SN, and I haven't personally learned, heard or run across anything stating that there is any connection whatsoever between skin melanin and Parkinson's. But I guess the take home message for me is that there is more going on here than I realized, so I can't write off the possibility that there is also--though I can't imagine how--some emerging connection between neuromelanin/Parkinson's and a person's skin melanin levels. Anyway, as you say, this article is about melanin generally, not just skin melanin in humans, so regardless the Parkinson's link is legit. Babajobu 19:57, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Actually, what you've just stated is what I'd already read on the Internet before adding info re melanin and Parkinson's to both melanin or black supremacy. In contributing info on melanin as a semiconductor/ neurotransmitter, it occurred to me it might play a role in Parkinson's, so I looked it up. I did my research. I simply misspoke in spelling of the "degeneration of melanocytes" in the substantia nigra in the discussion. The info in both articles is actually correct; I chose my words carefully, because I realize I'm way out of my comfort zone in writing about such things. But it seemed interesting and certainly provocative enough to mention. deeceevoice 20:14, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, interesting it certainly is. I think I'll pick a related abstract at the NLM website and link to it at the end of the article. Later when I have time I should add something on neuromelanin to the "different types of melanin" section. Babajobu 21:11, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

List of To Do's

This list was included in the article, so I've preserved it here. If anyone is interested in expanding the piece, here are some suggested areas of interest to contributors:

To be covered:

• eumelanin
• phaeomelanin
• Melanin Theory
• possible role of melanin deficiency in deafness and Parkinson's disease
• incidence of melanoma by "race"

deeceevoice 19:10, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Reorganization: crappy, but maybe a start

All of a sudden I was looking at the article, and I thought, "Shiznitz...this could end up being a really good article." If we ended up with good coverage of 1) melanin in humans 2) melanin in other forms of life 3) the emerging technological applications of melanin, and 4) an interesting and relevant "race and social" implications of melanin...well, that could be an extremely good article. I threw in the bare bones of that kind of structure, but collapsed the first two sections into a single "biology" section. Anyway, I was just playing around with ideas, obviously go ahead and make any changes you like or revert it back to the old structure. But I do think that four-pronged structure has potential. I think I'll go tinker around with it a little more.Babajobu 22:30, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As far as the race section: I have some ideas about things that I think would be interesting and relevant here...I also suspect that ultimately more people will join deeceevoice's side and the "broad social" stuff will win the day and be put in the race section. Even so, I think that there are other, tighter race issues that really should be included: what is the extent of melanin's role in skin tones and color? How much do other determinants matter (e.g, carotene, vascular density in skin, etc.)? How much is it a simple matter of melanin concentration, and how much do relative proportions of different types of melanin matter? How much do melanin concentrations influence subjective assessments of race, vs. other variables like facial bone structure, et cetera. Obviously melanin would have to be the focus of all this, rather than the other variables, but some comparative assessment is worthwhile, if any reliable ones have been made and are out there to be used. Anyway, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I don't have time for any of this sh*t. I'm never coming back to wikipedia again. See ya' later, suckaz. Catch ya' in another life. Babajobu 22:59, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

See ya. Wouldn't wanna be ya! :-p Actually, it's not as quite as crappy as you may think. But the subsection on melanin in other life forms is completely unnecessary. It essentially repeats info in the opening paragraph and is wa-ay too short to stand on its own. I won't delete it, because it includes a little bit of new info (what the hell are protista?) that I'm too fried at the moment to try to incorporate into the lead para (as it should be). And the renaming of the subhead on melanin and race and social bias to read simply "Melanin in Society" is just incredibly bland utterly meaningless; it says absolutely nothing. If your intent is to gloss over this subject and avoid the related issues as much as possible, you've succeeded. Wikipedia definitely can do better than that.

I also don't like the way you've renamed the section I began on "Physical properties and applications." When I added those items to the "to do" list and the info re the previously completely overlooked area of melanin biotech/nanotech research, I was hoping people would add to the info and not simply tinker with the wording of the subhead. There is a lot more that can be added. Melanin research is apparently booming. And then there are the applications in the less exciting, more pedestrian area of cosmetics, that at least bear mentioning. How 'bout "Physical properties and technical applications"? I like that better, since the info I added introduces the properties of melanin that are of particular interest in areas of biotech. (Since I didn't do the cosmetics part of it, I didn't make ref. to already presented info re melanin's ability to protect against solar radiation.)

Thanks for your contributions, but don't let the doorknob hitcha.... :-p deeceevoice 03:24, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm back for a sec...I agree that the headings were bland, and that it makes no sense to have a separate section for "melanin in other forms of life" when there is only one sentence on the topic. I was trying to define the basic categories into which the article should be broken down. The headings were merely descriptive, and--even if the article goes on to use the four categories I was thinking of--clearly the section names would need to be more interesting than "melanin in this area, melanin in that area", et cetera. So I changed the physical properties section back to your title, which I agree is better. As for race, I already let y'all know my thoughts on the original race section, and I deleted it once. But that's it. I'm not interested enough in the race issues to battle over the content of the section. Certainly I don't find affluent Americans' obsession with their luxurious "ethnic identities" and their rich-man fantasies of their own persecution and oppression (in the southern hemisphere every year six million children under five years-old starve to death: now that's opression, and it's got nothing to do with the fantasyland of rich, persecuted/oppressed Americans) to be worth any effort to "gloss over it," or obscure it or whatever. What's ridiculous is harmless. So in that spirit I've changed the title of the race and social section to something that more effectively broaches the fantasies Americans have about the social catastrophes in their own country. Babajobu 11:05, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Grumble, grumble, grumble! Clearly, you have an axe to grind -- and it bores me. You will note that the subsection on melanin-based racial and social bias treated South Africa, India and Brazil, as well as the U.S. And you cannot tell me that apartheid, India's caste system and Brazil's favelas aren't real misery -- or that those societies (and others) are not marked by entrenched systems, still, of disadvantage and privilege based on skin color. Nor can you tell me that race-based discrimination and deprivation still are not pervasive here in the States; they are, indeed. FYI, there happens to be no Richter scale for human suffering, misery and deprivation; those things, though somewhat relative are highly personal and subjective. Unlike you, I don't presume to measure one group's suffering against another or discount one person's suffering in favor of another. A hungry child is a hungry child. Families without healthcare or adequate incomes or adequate shelter suffer, regardless of their location in the world. I'll leave such arrogance and insensitivity to others. deeceevoice 11:31, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oh, one more thing...I put the section on melanin in other forms of life because I think in a complete article on melanin, that should be included. The one sentence already there is just an inadequate stub. Anyway, if you don't think the melanin article needs a section on its role in other forms of life, then go ahead and zap that mug. Incidentally, I like Americans, loved the time I've spent there, and like the ones I've met on Wikipedia. I was just making observations that are obvious to most southern hemisphere folk, but apparently invisible to Americans. Middle and working class Americans, who are in actuality hopelessly rich from any sane historical perspective, can't spend 17 billion dollars a year on ice cream, billions more than that on cosmetics, and so on, and then expect the rest of to buy their sappy, silly stories about how tough they got it. "Ethnicity" is just another Yankee luxury, nothing more. Babajobu 11:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"'Ethnicity is just another Yankee luxury, nothing more." What?. Ethnicity/color bias is a prominent factor in determining who the haves and have have-nots are in lots of countries other than the States. And to pretend otherwise is the height of intellectual dishonesty and just outright stupidity. And how naive your perception is of America and Americans! No, the streets here aren't paved with gold. Try telling a couple of hotel workers with two children who can't find a one-bedroom apartment for under $1,300 a month how good they have it. Or a marginally literate couple whose children attend a failing school. Or someone in an efficiency apartment on a fixed income whose rent ceiling is $5,000/month. Or a hungry, battered, elderly veteran who sells secondhand books lined along the sidewalk in front of a neighborhood supermarket, because he can't make ends meet, otherwise. Or a tattered, homeless person digging into trash cans along the street, scavenging for food. I'd really love to see that. Go ahead tell them how their disadvantage and deprivation are somehow a figment of their "Yankee" imaginations. If you had a conscience, you'd hang your head in shame first. deeceevoice

Responding to your "Grumble, grumble, grumble" post: Okay, I'll take the accusation of "arrogance and insensitivity." Maybe you're right. And I really have no gripe with Americans...if anything I'm a bit of an Americaphile. But I agree with you that a hungry child is a hungry child...this is why I insist that we do need to make comparisons between the suffering of different groups. There is no point in doing it in retrospect as a form of "We had it worse" one-upsmanship between groups...but we do need to do it in the present, so that we know where to devote out energies and efforts. How else would we decide where to start? What's worse? A 33 percent under-five mortality rate in Botswana, or comparatively (to Botswana) mild poverty in India (to say nothing of the U.S.)? We have to be able to answer that question. We gain nothing by pretending they are equivalent. Anyway, we've gotten off topic. And I don't want to bore you. Babajobu 12:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Now responding to your first "ethnicity is not a luxury post" (I'll respond to the expanded one after): Yes, absolutely, race, ethnicity and so on are important factors in many places to the extent that they're all wrapped up with "who gets what." The irony a much bigger than any of those things is the sort of inward myopia that allows ordinary Americans to blow obscene, unimaginable quantities of money on frivolous luxuries while south of the equator children are starving for lack of a few cents. This myopia belongs to Americans generally, and crosses all ethnicities. I don't know that the worst white, black, red, yellow or orange bigot in America has dehumanized his "ethnic" enemies as much as each American dehumanizes a Southern child by choosing a cute purse or whatever over that dying child's life. Babajobu 12:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

We are not in disagreement on the points you raise -- but none of that has anything whatsoever to do with your purposeful obtuseness (and vandalism) w/regard to addressing melanin-based bias in this particular article. Your comments have denigrated the subject -- and that's what I'm sticking to here; I intend to keep on point. Get a grip and stick to the subject at hand. deeceevoice 12:30, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I just wrote this response to your "America is not perfect" post, and then saw your new entry. Okay fine, as I said I accept that I am not well-positioned to write the "melanin and race" section. Or even to contribute to it. It's all yours. I'll just add my response here, and then I'll shut up on the topic. Here's the response: I know America is not perfect. No human society will ever be perfect. But America's problems (and I still have difficulty not putting quotes around the word) are utterly negligible compared to problems elsewhere. That's not something to be ashamed of...you all have the right to be proud of it, no one handed it to you. And there's no large ethnic group in America that can't claim a major role in contributing to that success. And as hard as this is to grasp for Americans--and I'm glad you mentioned homelessness, because it's a topic I happen to know something about--a homeless person in America, undesirable as his circumstances may be in many respects, has free access to resources that are unimaginable in any developing country. He has public hospitals that will see him for free. Yes, he has to sit and wait a long time, and the care he gets isn't as good as other Americans'. But having to sit and wait in a hospital emergency room for just-okay medical care is not the same thing as dying a gruesome death for lack of an innoculation that cost 25 cents. The homeless American has access to public benefits that may seem inadequate to him, but that are beyond the realm of comprehension to someone in, say, Bangladesh or Sudan. This doesn't mean he has a good life...just that he has more opportunities and resources than people experiencing a far deeper, more extreme poverty elsewhere. There is a cosmic gulf between America and the world's South. The internal disagreements in America--ethnic, economic, whatever--just pale in comparison to that gulf. That's why you drive everyone so goddamn crazy--even when they like you, as they usually do. Babajobu 12:46, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I can't help how others react to the ongoing push for a better life for everyone in this country. The implication is American citizens should be happy and just shut the hell up because there are others so much worse off. Heeding that advice woud have meant that African Americans would never have stepped up and changed the course of history of this nation for the better and set an example that has fueled all sorts of struggles of marginalized peoples for human rights, for self-determination and equality. That's unacceptable. Besides, I don't think that's what drives people crazy about this nation at all. I think they admire us for that.

What, I think, drives other nations crazy is when that drive to perfect a just and egalitarian society takes the form of self-righteousness, hypocrisy, paternalism and insularity: Bush and Condie Rice's determination to "spread democracy" throughout the Middle East; the U.S. pummeling other nations in the UN w/regard to human rights violations and then Abu Ghraib; Bush's push to spend billion of dollars for "democracy" in Iraq, but we here in the District of Columbia don't even have voting representation in Congress; the U.S. being the richest, but stingiest, nation when it comes to share of GNP devoted to foreign aid; its consumption of a ridiculous portion of the world's natural resources and its failure to ratify the Kyoto accord; the absolutely maddeningly, happy abysmal ignorance of Americans about the rest of the world, because they're too comfortable and complacent (and often arrogant) to give a shyt -- and on and on and on. And then there's just the sheer galling presence of a nation so gottdamned rich among those of such grinding poverty.

But like I said, I have no control over how other people of other nations react. As an activist, I deal with issues of social, economic and political justice all the time; and that's my answer. I'm one of those striving for perfection -- or, at least, something as close to justice as I can get. Resentfully picking at scabs and comparing suffering for the hell of being argumentative, to me, are pointless endeavors. And, again, all this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand and your obtuseness with regard to dealing with melanin and race bias -- one of most important driving forces in the shaping of the world today as we know it. deeceevoice 13:20, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Heh...well, most of my American friends would fall on the "liberal" side of the American political spectrum, and ironically the thing I've argued with them about most is the current American foreign policy. You would disagree with me, too, so I won't even start. So all I'll say is this: the world will survive Condi Rice and George Bush. And when Condi Rice meets European foreign ministers--stodgy old white men who represent countries in which the decision to let in a thousand black refugees kicks off national hysteria about the swamping of "our culture"--well, it's a titan meeting pygmies, Condi Rice being the titan, and the European FMs the pygmies. And no one would ever have had to guess whether it would have been Europe or America that produced Rice, Powell, et cetera. Anyway, my point is that the "drive for justice" among Americans in the U.S. has, in my opinion, reached a point of diminishing returns. Basically, I'm saying that you should be applying that drive abroad. Government aid is one thing, but Americans give nearly 2 percent of their personal income to charity (compared with say, the French who give .4%) But most of that privately-given money is given to domestic causes. I think it's time you guys looked around, said, "well, this is pretty damn good, now maybe its time to spread the love abroad." I don't know, obviously, you'll do what you like. I think you wield power as Americans, whether you have lots of melanin or no melanin. The internal divisions/preoccupations are now just distracting you from more meaningful use of your resources, in my personal opinion. Babajobu 14:10, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You probably don't know jack about the complexities of America's internal problems, so I'll overlook your ignorance about "diminishing returns" -- but not your presumptuous arrogance. Don't speak on what you don't know. There is lots that can be done domestically that hasn't even been attempted, let alone tried and failed. And it doesn't make any damned sense to give up on the serious problems confronting us in our own backyards in favor of dealing with those abroad. The problems this nation faces internally are far more than "distractions." The primary responsibility of any nation is seeing to the basic needs of its own citizens first.

Your approach is simplistic and ill-informed. The fact is, it's not an either-or choice; there's no dilemma between domestic priorities and international responsibility. After all, I was the first to bring up the stinginess of this nation, the disparity between America's GNP and what this nation gives in foreign aid. And there's one helluvah difference between American militarism in the service of imperialism and paternalism and getting up off our asses and dealing with the appalling situations in Sudan and elsewhere. It would seem precious little has been learned from Rwanda. Bush, Sr., and Clinton have made PSAs here for appeals for Americans to contribute tsunami relief, but I've heard little to nothing about Sudan, or the looming famine in Ethiopia. And I'm not one to wax all sentimental about the likes of Condi Rice. The woman is just plain scary. Bad foreign policy with a brown face is still bad foreign policy. Lies coming from the lips of Condi Rice are still lies.

You aren't here, and I don't think you have a clue what's going on in this nation w/regard to the numbers of families without access to healthcare or affordable housing, homelessness, people going hungry, the crappy public education system, the gang violence, the growing HIV-AIDS problem among "minorities." These are not "distractions." They are pressing problems that demand attention.

My comments on your changes stand; by and large, they have not been improvements. Quite the contrary. And, again, none of this justifies your obtuseness and puerile vandalism in dealing with melanin and race bias in this article. deeceevoice 14:39, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I have agreed with you several times now that I shouldn't contribute to the melanin and race bias section. I'm more familiar with the problems in the U.S. than you think. With all due respect, I think the difference is that I see them within a broader context. All Egyptian pyramids look pretty damn formidable when you stand underneath them, and I'm sure people who live in Luxor think theirs are enormous. But once you've been to Giza, well...Luxor looks a lot different. Gotta run, take care. Babajobu 15:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nope. We each have our own visions of a broader context. IMO, the problem is you've placed yourself in the position of defending an indefensible, immature, presumptuous and arrogant rant. If you had a true understanding of the nature and scope of domestic problems in the U.S., you would not have called them "distractions." deeceevoice 08:24, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In light of subsequent comments by Babajobu, the section on melanin and bias has been restored -- with some editing. deeceevoice 14:57, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why the hell would we need to have a lengthy description of what racism, racialism, black supremacy, white supremacy, all sorts of "caste" system on a page on melanin the biological molecule? What's this crap? In light of Babajobu's comments? He didn't even support this idea of writing so much crap and not much science on it. Give me a break. The readers should be referred to the individual articles, which there are plenty of, instead of treading through this dreg. Wareware 18:41, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You are mistaken. This page is about melanin as a broad subject -- not just about the "biological molecule." Babajobu later acknowledged that a discussion of this subject was probably warranted and that he was probably not the person to deal with it. He admitted he was simply venting in his earlier comments. The readers are, indeed, referred to other articles via the links provided when the various subjects are mentioned in the body of the text. To truncate the treatment and then give two or three examples is inadequate. A brief -- and it is brief, even shorter than it was before -- discussion of the role of melanin in race (or ethnic) and social bias is completely within the purview of this article. The information is restored. deeceevoice 19:09, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't think anything can get through your thick skull that's so preoccupied with race, racism, racialism, and all sorts of related crap. Look, what is the point of mentioning the apartheid systems (already covered in racism article) and redheads/blondes with melanin. Because the readers are directed to more thorough information in their respective articles, there's no need to explode into more discussions about them. If they want to know more about racism and skin color, just go to their own pages. Most of people who want to know more about melanin care about the molecule of melanin, not about apartheid in India or South Africa. It's been really difficult to reason with you. I'll quit arguing and just revert whatever extraneous info you come up with. If you're so adamant on projecting your race-related vent then why don't you go ahead and make an article on Melanin (social bias/racism/racialism/apartheid/etc). Give me a break Wareware 03:40, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wrong again. When one erroneous argument fails, you resort to censoring. It is not for any of us to presume to know what someone wants to know about a subject, or to determine what we want them to know, based on our own predilections, and then tailor an article accordingly. Once again, this is an encyclopedia, the purpose of which is to treat subjects in their entirety. The information provided on melanin in race and social bias is important, as color bias has been one of the most important, driving forces in human civilization. The information as it is presented is minimal, listing, in text form with links for the reader desirous of reading more, various examples of color-based bias. It does not treat them exhaustively, nor does it explain how these constructs function, but it does provide options and direction to the reader.

Your complaints accompanying your last two reversions are groundless. The section on race and color bias makes perfect sense, and I have now tweaked the two sentences on "black supremacy" even further.

One more revert, one more intemperate comment, and this matter will be referred for mediation, and you will be recommended for suspension. deeceevoice 06:42, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Racism is important, but it doesn't belong in every article. Let us keep the short version. pstudier 06:57, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)

Hear that deeceevoice? Oh my god! Big Black Momma is coming to report me for suspension! Holy jesus I'd better run. Seriously, you're not getting the message here, but insist on inserting every racism/racialism/black supremacy/white supremacy every chance you get. Why don't you re-read my previous comment, as you seem to have totally missed the message Wareware 07:11, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wareware, keep in mind that the average Wiki user doesn't follow me from article to article to read my contributions. Each article to which I contribute should be viewed separately and the merits of my contributions judged as one would judge those of any other contributor. My interest is my interest, and my intent is my intent. I am no different from a music aficionado following his or her interest to articles related to that broad subject. Wareware, you keep harping on my "preoccupation" with matters of race. My stated intent is to bring a black perspective to Wiki articles -- which is sorely lacking on this website. And you seem to have a problem with that. Not my problem. The preoccupation, in fact, is yours; because you repeatedly follow me around Wikipedia like some lap dog to snipe at my contributions, becoming increasingly belligerent with each post. Get some common sense, some self-respect. Get a life. deeceevoice 09:53, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

PStudier, "every article"? Only one article -- this one -- is currently under discussion. And, indeed, in an article on melanin, treatment of color-based racial/ethnic and social bias should be mentioned, and in a meaningful and informative way that provides sufficient context and also links to pertinent topics -- not simply in passing. deeceevoice 09:57, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I guess I should've made myself clear. Your preoccupation is inserting pov information on race, not some innocent neutral black perspective. Your ridiculous edits on Afrocentrism is the prime example of it. And the crap about each article should stand on its own. Well, that depends what kind of contributor is writing those articles. You gotta be kidding me to have made that statement. But hey, I need my daily dose of comedy, and your various edits and comments provide plenty of those. And that I'm increasingly belligerent? Just take a look at the talk pages of Afrocentrism and see who was repeatedly requested to act with some basic civility? It's rather pathetic of you to accuse somebody of being belligerent, you know. Wareware 10:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I could bring up all kinds of garbage here about your conduct and your racist remarks. But I won't. Try to focus, Wareware. Under discussion is this article, this discussion thread and your conduct herein. And if there's something POV in this article, then point it out. Straighten up. deeceevoice 11:31, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You know what, you need to come up with some good reasons on why the hell you're reverting the article, but I guess that is out of your league. And you've accused me of being a racist for I don't know how many times now; I've even predicted on several occasions that you'll do such. The only remotely racist remark I've made so far is the one on africans and apes, and that's after you made a fool of yourself by saying Asians have small penises and made a long and biting derision out of it. That was a long time ago and you're kidding yourself if you say you can bring up all kinds of my purported racist conduct. God, the probability of your accusing someone of being racist approaches one on almost every discussion, it's funny and pathetic at the same time really. Wareware 16:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, I said no such thing. You're delusional. First, you assumed I was a male and made a comment about the size of my genitalia, and I simply suggested that, as an Asian, you might not wanna go there. What you read into it is your business. :-p Hey, I'm not the one who started talkin' under people's clothes. lol (A lesson. If you don't wanna go there, don't open the door.) And it was then you made the classic, racist reference to apes and black folks. And "racist" is a word I use very sparingly; this discussion thread is the first place I've characterized your comments as "racist" -- the very first. If you recall, at the time of the dispute, I simply laughed at your ignorance and called you "my misguided Asian brother." Your memory needs a little help. Got ginko? :-p

What? Still no example of my POV contributions to this article? Not surprising, because there isn't one. My contributions, as usual, have been substantive and useful.

Ah, but all this "he said, she said" is tiresome -- and it comes off like whining. You should understand very well why I've made the reverts. I've explained my actions thoroughly -- while you, on the other hand, simply have complained ad nauseam about your perception of my cumulative comments in various forums over time. Like I said, my concern is this forum, now. Specific, though brief, mention of various forms of melanin-based color bias in human societies across cultures and continents is useful information; and it should be included so that readers have specific references for further reading, should they be inclined to follow up. If they're not interested, they probably won't bother to read past the subhead; that's one of the reasons it's there in the first place. And that's their choice. But at least they have a choice. deeceevoice 17:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You still haven't explained any logical reason besides more bullshit. "The reders have a choice" to continue reading or not. Well, that kind of reasoning justifies just about every and any adddition of extraneous info. I can insert all sorts of crap into articles and then say "well, the readers can choose what to read or what not to read." And "melanin-based color bias." That craks me up. Jesus, you're like one of those people who like to add more adjectives and make new terms to make something sound bigger than it really it is. For your information, human skin color is based on melanin. Can you tell me any other __-based color bias? Also, color bias is the most likely cause for and is almost racism itself, so the readers should be redirected there, unless you tell me that blacks are discriminated against because they have thick lips, so more information should be spent here on melanin-based racism. Can you tell me the difference between "melanin-based color bias" and any other kinds of racism? Or are you just playing with words here? Really, why is your skull so thick? Why insist on inserting so many references to racism? Are you on a crusade or something? This is not black-o-pedia or something for you to add substantial racism-related vents when the articles call for none. Look at the article on human skin color, it's got a even shorter mention of race relations than this one. I'm thinking about doing it that way and get rid of the subhead altogether like that. Why don't you add more racist info to lips, hair, eyes, evolution, apes, human skin color, melanin, melanoma, sickle cell disease, crainiology, human intelligence, and so forth? Look, when a reader wants to know about racism, he would most likely search for, say, racism, racialism, prejudice, discrimination, miscegenation, racial superiority, affirmative action, racial intelligence, and so on, but NOT melanin. You're not the one with at least some logic here, and I don't think it's a "black" thing, so why don't you open your eyes and clear up your brain, and stop reverting. Wareware 18:51, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what "racism" is. There is absolutely nothing racist in the section you seem determined to excise. Nothing. Further, no. I read your changes and, when I consider them to be an improvement, I incorporate them. Your first reaction, on the other hand, in every single article you follow me to is to mindlessly revert everything --including the obvious typos I correct. Seemingly, your raison d'etre on Wikipedia is to follow we around like some deranged stalker. How sad. deeceevoice 20:23, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nah, I just like correcting dumb and racist (reversed) people's edits. It doesn't take as much time and energy as you'd think. Wareware 00:01, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Polyacetylene

There's a note that this article should include material from Polyacetylene. That article is a stub and I'm not sure how if belongs in this article. Does anyone know what needs to be merged into this article? RJFJR 02:08, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Melanin is biological polyacetylene, in much the same way latex of Brazil is polyisoprene. They're two names for the same family of polymers, but one word is used by biologists and the other by materials scientists. I put the merge there (somewhat naively) thinking that materials scientists like myself should know more about the vast quantity of work that's been done on polyacetylene by biochemists. Really, the page should just become a redirect to this one...I'll try to take care of that sometime in the next week if I have the energy. Anyone interested in electronics applications should read this article.--Polyparadigm 06:30, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's clearer to me now. (The external link nicely shows the polyacetylene chain). So PolyacetyleneS is being used to refer to any molecule with a long chain of carbons with alternating single and double bonds, even if has a lot of side bonds (even ones that form rings with the back bone). The Polyacetylene chem-stub needs a diagram (prefereably, or at least a good description of what happens when you polymerize acetylene). The Melanin article might benefit from drawings of the two monomers. (Anyone have an opinion on whether this would clarify or would it just distract?) Depending how the structure is drawn the polyacetylene backbone may or may not be obvious.

Polyparadigm, I inserted a link to organic semiconductors at the bottom of the page, which I inserted a while back. I also wrote the paragraph referring to electronics applications, with a reference to "plastic electronics," a field for which there doesn't appear to be an article yet. Perhaps it exists on Wiki under another name? If not, perhaps you'd want to tackle the subject. I certainly don't know enough of the field and what's happening research-wise to do so. If there is an article on the subject, but under a slightly different name, perhaps you can insert an appropriate, working link in its stead? Thanks. deeceevoice 17:34, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Chemistry

There seems to be a lack of chemists on Wikipedia...

Poly(acetylene), like all polymers, is named for its monomer. The correct notation includes the word poly followed by the name of the monomer surround by parentheses. The word polyacetylenes is a widely accepted term for a class of polymers that are derived from acetylenes. It is completely incorrect to refer to all structures containing alternating sp3/sp2 (single/double bonded) carbons as a polyacteylenes. Latex is most certaily not a polyacetyele. It is a polyisoprene, which is a completely different classifcation of molecules. Isoprene is a naturally occuring 5 carbon unit used in biological systems to construct molecules ranging from vitamin A to the compound that gives rise the smell of oranges and lemons (limonene, the enantiomers of which smell like orange and lemon). It is extremely difficult to teach someone who has not completed a college organic chemistry series how to classify polymers and exactly how incorrect it is to refer to a poly(isoprene) as a poly(acetylene) because to classify a polymer you have to do some retro-synthetic analysis.

In the definition of melanin it states that melanin is comprised of indolequinone, and dihydroxyindole carboxylic acid units. Neither of these are acetylenes therefore melanin is NOT a poly(acetylene).

Above comment was added by Fearofcarpet

So, is Melanin a organic semiconductor? pstudier 19:25, 2005 Mar 17 (UTC)

Actually, the comment in the above section does describe latex as natural polyisoprene. But it also describes melanin as a polyacetylene. Can someone check the stub at polyacetylene, please? RJFJR 20:21, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

-It does refer to poly(isoprene), but seemed to be lumping it into the same category so I wanted to make the distinction. I realize the way I worded it was poor, but I simply meant to draw a contrast between the two. Fearofcarpet 21:26, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I see. Thank you for clarifying. Since you seem to know something about organic chemistry did you happen to look at the polyacetylene stub? RJFJR 21:55, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

-I have looked at the poly(acetylene) stub and it needs help, but I don't have the time right now. If someone has the Handbook of Conducting Polymers (which I'm too poor to afford) handy it should have an appropriate discussion of poly(acetylene) in the context of its importance in the field of conducting polymers. Someone brought a sample of doped poly(acetylene) to a seminar (it looks just like metal foil... Very cool) and we snapped a picture which I will upload if I can find. At any rate, though not the first conducting polymer made, experiments with poly(acetylene) probably contributed more to the fundamental understanding of organic semiconductors than any other polymer and deserves more than just a stub. Fearofcarpet 19:55, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See talk:black supremacy for info/links re physical properties ongoing high-tech research

I'd like to refer those who have an interest in this subject to the talk page of the above-referenced article. I've brought in some additional information regarding melanin-related deafness in mammals, as well more info regarding current melanin research in the fields of quantum chemistry and plastic (or organic) electronics that should appear in this piece. And, yes. Melanin is an organic semiconductor -- a fact which has been known since 1970. deeceevoice 08:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected

This article has been protected for too long, and in any case there is no discussion here in the past week. Unprotected. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:24, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Restoration of disputed text

For obvious reasons, I feel user Wareware's objections to the disputed language for the section on the role of melanin in race and social bias are groundless and motivated by something other than the quality and thoroughness of this article. With User:Jiang's block removed, unless there is further and substantive objection, the relevant passages will be reinserted within a few days' time. deeceevoice 11:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• You asked for comment so I'll put my two cents in. Please read with many grains of salt. While melanin is the pigmentation chemical in human skin, I view this article as chemistry, material sciences and biology. But I view the material you want to add as either psychology or sociology. (Melanin molecules have neither psychology nor sociology, only humans have these). A link to other articles on human's perception of skin color, etc., is appropriate. If the material you are seeking to add already exists elsewhere in the Wikipedia then we don't need to duplicate it here but can just link to that material. This raises a related question: does that material exist in one article or is it distributed through many articles? RJFJR 02:06, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in. The problem with your view, however, is that the article is about Melanin -- not the Chemistry of melanin. I don't understand why people don't get that; for me, it's a no-brainer. That's like arbitrarily saying an article titled Dog should deal with only the physical attributes of the animal and nothing else. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so the subjects it treats should be dealt with encyclopedically. Melanin-based color bias has been (and continues to be) one of the most important phenomena in shaping world history, in determining who are the haves and who are the have-nots: the trans-Atlantic slave trade, white supremacy and racism, segregation and discrimination in American society, India's caste system, rampant color-based bias in Latin America, colonialism, imperialism, etc., etc., etc.

This may not have anything to do with your reaction to the inclusion of such a brief discussion of the matter in this article, but I have to ask: what is it with white folks and racism -- particularly these folks on Wikipedia? Are they afraid of the issue? Is this a means of censoring subject matter and keeping articles confined to only those matters with which certain people are comfortable? I think a major dose of intellectual honesty is in order here.

If you read the disputed text, it is barely an outline of examples of such bias in human societies. It is a way of mentioning related topics in their appropriate context and an intelligent way of guiding readers to these related subjects (rather than via a rather meaningless, "see also list") without going into detail about any of them. I have to say I think your objection is completely wrong-headed and based on an unjustifiably narrow interpretation of what the scope of this article should be. deeceevoice 06:27, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

From the beginning of the article: Melanin is a polymer of either or both of two monomer molecules: indolequinone, and dihydroxyindole carboxylic acid. Sounds like Chemistry of melanin to me. Most bias in society is not based just on skin color but also on history, culture, etc. Therefore these things should be discussed elsewhere.

Why do you assume that the people who disagree with you are white folks? pstudier 22:54, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)