Talk:Republika Srpska

Name

sh: Republika Srpska (RS) = de: Republik Serbland = en: The Republic of Serbland

one-word name: sh: Srpska = de, en: Serbland

(Srpski jezički priručnik, Beograd 2004)

more info here: http://www.rastko.org.yu/filologija/bbrboric-jezik/bbrboric-jezik5.html

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2004 discussion is archived at /Archive 1.

Wait until things actually happen

The article is stating that RS Ministry of Internal Affairs (entity police) and the entity Ministry of Defence (RS military) were abolished in mid-December of 2004 and integrated with BiH ministries. This is not quite true - an agreement was reached in autumn 2004 to establish a joined military command on BiH state level for two entity armies, but the agreement said that this should happen in three years. OHR (Peddy Ashdown) in mid-December proclaimed that this would now happen by autumn 2005, but the RS authorities rejected this, stating that the agreement was already signed. The same goes for RS Ministry of Internal Affairs (and the Federation Ministry of Internal Affairs) - Peddy Ashdown simply proclaimed that it is to be abolished (he did not abolish it officially, though - note the difference) and integrated into a new BiH state-level police, organized into five regions that are not following entity lines. However, this caused a big political crisis in RS and BiH, because the Serb politicians flatly rejected this. Thus, the best thing to do is to leave things as they are, maybe provide an indication that they might change but wait with article changes until things actually (officially) happen (the jury is still out on the final arrangements, and Bosnian Serb Army and RS Ministry of Interior exist unchanged at the moment; according to the article they are already state integrated/abolished, which is not the reality of the situation).

'Regions' in Republika Srpska officially do no exist

What is the source for the article claim that Republika Srpska is composed of 'seven regions'? There is no evidence that these regions exist in any official capacity - Republika Srpska is internally composed only of municipalities. Please provide some evidence (there is no word about existance of 'administrative regions' on any official Republika Srpska pages, nor can this be found on OHR pages) or erase the claim from the main article.

Intolerant name? Intolerant insignia?

There is a new addition to the article that goes like this:

"To some, the name and insignia of Republika Srpska are inherently intolerant towards other Bosnians and evoke very negative connotations of war-time problems for them. While I can understand the clause about the negative connotation 'other Bosnians' (I presume Bosniacs and Croats) have towards symbols (and the very existence of) Republika Srpska, I am not sure I follow the first statement. How can name and insignia be intolerant (?), and in what way are they intolerant?

Would the author please qualify? Thank you.

First off, this is not a new addition, it's from this commit back in September last year. Secondly, the notion of Republika Srpska being offensive to non-Serbs is much older, and fairly obvious to others -- this constitutional nation of BH decided that parts of BH are to be named and marked "Serbian" (which is what the adjective srpska means), and they used e.g. the eagle and the crown above the coat of arms, a symbol of the royalty of Serbia (which is on the other side of the Drina).

This shows a lack of tolerance for the other two constitutional nations which do not adhere to this kind of politics. Granted, having checkerboard and lilies on the flag of the Federation is similar, but at least they didn't name their entity after themselves and they combined those two different symbols on the same flag which indicates that they aren't being so exclusive.

Couple this with what went on during the war, and it'll be even more obvious why there's animosity. --Joy [shallot]

• I am not an expert on heraldry and vexillology, but as far as I can see the insignia of Republika Srpska (such as the flag and the coat of arms) are just a variant of national symbols that Serbs use in general (Serbia now does the same, but Republika Srpska had these insignia way before Serbia reintroduced them last year). Are they intolerant by their very existence to those in Bosnia who are not Serbs? What would that imply in the long run?

The crown and the eagle are used in reference to the Serbian kingdom of the House of Obrenović, AFAIR. I'm sure that there are other Serb symbols that don't necessarily conflict with the fact that the country is a republic and that it's called Bosnia and Herzegovina... heck, that's being lenient, even. I can't think of many countries that would look favorably at the inclusion of national symbols of other countries on their flags. Compare the situation with the wartime statelet of the BH Croats "Herceg-Bosna" — it had the Croatian tricolor and the Croatian coat of arms, and everyone frowned upon it as something that was inherently detrimental to the territorial integrity of Bosnia and Herzegovina. --Joy [shallot]

• Again, without claiming to be an expert, I have never heard of any other Serb symbols beside a tricolour flag (red-blue-white) and the cross with four Cyrillic "S" letters on a shield with or without a double-headed eagle. They are Serb insignia in a general sense. I am sure the Kingdom of Serbia used them before but that does not mean that the symbols are explicitly referring to the state of Serbia - they are symbols of the Serbs as a nation (or an ethnic group) in general. This is the context of their use in Republika Srpska - not Serbia under the Obrenovici dynasty. The same goes for the Croats (their tricolour flag and the red-white chessboard shield; it is indeed used by Croatia, but these symbols are national symbols of the Croats wherever they are).

Well, you go ask those same Bosnian Serbs whether they want to avoid any reference to the state of Serbia... I cannot see much effort to distinguish their nationhood from their statehood in this matter, only the contrary. Which is okay in theory, but not when they need to live in a multi-national state such as BH. --Joy [shallot]

• With regards to entity's name (Serb Republic), insignia and so forth: I always thought that Republika Srpska is supposed to be a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs at its core. I am not sure that there is any other purpose for its existence. If the entity cannot be called Serb Republic, if it cannot have Serb insignia and so forth, that would imply that it effectively cannot be a form a territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs. Its very existence would then be pointless - wouldn't that destroy the terms of the negotiated peace at Dayton?

We're describing a public opinion here - the existence of the Dayton Agreement does not imply that the public opinion cannot doubt some element or aspect of the Agreement. In other words, the people may adhere to the rules laid out in the agreement, but that does not mean that they may not dislike (parts of) the agreement. --Joy [shallot] 21:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think there is an overarching fact that needs to be said. Republika Srpska may have been envisioned as a form a territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs but in 2002 (the year may be wrong) there was a constitutional amendment that recognized that Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats are constituent nations of Republika Srpska. It is what you are logically concluding that by this amendment the purpose of Republika Srpska is pointless and the terms negotiated at Dayton are defacto destroyed. This is an absurd of BH and RS politics in general. Regarding the issue of "intolerant name and insignia" is that under same name and insignia Republika Srpska conducted ethnic cleansing and genocide (which they addmited recently) over other Bosnians while name and insignia does not reflect the essence that Bosniaks and Croats are also contituent nations of RS. It is logical response by Bosnians that those simbols evoke very negative war problems for them. Hence the court case was filed in BH constitutional court recently that asks for the change of the name and insignia. Perhaps saying that insignia and name itself are intolerant could be rephrased but it is merely a grammatical semantics. Also, please sign your comments so that we know who we are responding to --Dado 19:14, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Dado, let me try to get this right: you are stating that Republika Srpska was envisioned as a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs, and that it indeed existed as such a number of years following Dayton (until 2002?), but that this is now somehow not true because non-Serbs were added to the constitution? I think that you are mixing up a form with essence here. There are many countries which are clearly national entities (such as France or Germany) that are not defined in their constitution as such (they have a civic constitution instead, going for citizens of the country instead of a specific ethnic group). Nevertheless it would be ridiculous to argue that Germany is not a German national state because of the wording of its constitution. On a sub-national level, there is a Balkan example of Kosovo, which is not defined at all as a form of ethnic Albanian national autonomy but everyone would agree that it would be pointless to argue that it wasn't. I said that Republika Srpska is at its core/essence a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs; the constitution might state otherwise, but that doesn’t change some realities on the ground. As an administrative division of Bosnia that has 90% (or whatever the number is) of the population as Serbs, it would be fruitless to argue otherwise - especially given its history and origins. If Republika Srpska is not a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs, what it is then?

First it is not my statement that RS was envisioned as a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs but I was repeating it after you. I was simply stating that it is a bit absurd for an entity to bear a name of a single nation if it has declared itself as a "multinational entity". It is more absurd to justify its name and existance as such entity was created through genocide and ethnic cleaning. Per same logic Germany would still bear the name and insignia of the Third Reich today regardless of its history. You may be confusing the situation on the ground with the facts but that seems to be the trend these days in RS.

• Dado: are you are now stating that Republika Srpska was never envisioned as a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs? What was it supposed to be then (you lost me here completely)?

• Also, I went online to find out details about the court case you were referring to. As far as I understand this, Sulejman Tihic (a Bosniac member of the Bosnia's presidency, and the leader of the largest Bosniac party) started a case against Republika Srpska in front of the Constitutional Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina. His claim is that everything that ties Republika Srpska to the Bosnian Serbs is unconstitutional - Republika Srpska's name, Republika Srpska's flag and the coat of arms plus all other Serb-related insignia used by various entity's agencies, all place names in Republika Srpska that have "Serb" prefix in it, Republika Srpska's holidays (which are based on Serb Orthodox Christian calendar) etc. etc. etc. Frankly, the list only stops short of proclaiming Bosnian Serbs themselves to be unconstitutional. You might claim that this is about multiethnicity, but it seems to me that the real goal is to completely divorce Republika Srpska from the Bosnian Serbs, and sever anything that ties the two together. If the court sides with Sulejman Tihic Republika Srpska would become a pointless structure (and could be abolished as such), because it would stop being a form of Bosnian Serb autonomy on any level. This would effectively be the end of the Dayton system - with unforeseen circumstances. The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that this is the real motivation.

What you forgot to mention is that Sulejman Tihic is pursuing the exact same thing for Croats and Bosniaks in the federation, so it's a bit foolish to say that he is seeking to "proclaim Bosnian Serbs themselves to be unconstitutional" when he's hoping to achieve the same for all three ethnicities. A fairly effective analogy would be saying that France's policy on secularism in public schools is intended to "proclaim Islam unconstitutional." As for the symbolism, it cannot be compared to the heraldry of the Republic of Serbia for several reasons. First and foremost is that in the Republic of Serbia these symbols represent important historical states and periods, whereas these banners first flew over one half of Bosnia after the ethnic cleansing of its non-Serb population. Thus, it is fairly evident that they simply represent the Serb people which, like Dado said, is offensive and discriminatory to the other two constitutional peoples of Republika Srpska. The comparison to Germany and France is faulty. Once again, the symbols of Germany and France have a historical basis on the territories of Germany and France, and as democratic tri-colors they are not necessarily specifically attached to any of the particular coutnries' ethnic groups. Furthermore, whereas France and Germany do not list any constitutional peoples, the Republic of Srpska's constitution does, and thus it has a responsibility to all three of its constitutional people equally.

And by the way, the name of the ethnic group is spelled Bosniaks, not Bosniacs. Thank you. Asim Led 23:59, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Asim: There are many interpretations regarding Tihic's court case, but however you word it the bottom line is that the case is against the Dayton system itself. Tihic's court case is challenging the concept of ethnically based entities; it is a matter of fact that Dayton peace accords legalized the internal ethnic division of Bosnia-Herzegovina into two separate entities. For the last ten years all major news networks acknowledged this fact by informally referring to the entities as 'the Muslim-Croat Federation' (FBiH) and 'the Bosnian Serb Republic' (RS). It is clear that everybody recognized the entities as forms of ethnically-based territorial autonomy (RS in case of the Bosnian Serbs; FBiH in case of the Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Muslims/Bosniaks), and it would be pointless to argue that, somehow, everybody was simply wrong for the last ten years. If the courts side with Tihic (by the way, it would be a legal absurdity for a court created by the Dayton agreement to decide that most of that agreement is unconstitutional, which does not mean it won’t happen), we are than talking about a major revision of Dayton through the 'back door' (as opposed to revising it openly, with a Dayton-like international conference). This would apply that the West (OHR and so forth) is actually behind the process (using a willing Tihic), because such a fundamental change could only be brought by whomever Ashdown is representing.

This statement that name of Republika Srpska is insulting for somebody is only POLITICAL anti-Serb statement and should be deleted. Does the person who wrote this consider that name of Bosnia-Herzegovina is insulting for Serbs? Think a little why the names of cities in Republika Srpska, which had prefix "Bosnian" were changed. So, Serbs accepted to live in Bosnia-Herzegovina (no matter that this name is insulting for Serbs) and non-Serbs also have to accept that they live in Republika Srpska. If somebody does not like this name it is only his problem (because this name is official one) and that doesn’t mean that we should to include this statement into article. What if you post this kind of statement for every country? We can post that name Romania is insulting for Hungarians who live there, we can wrote that name of Germany is insulting for Turks who live there, etc. In fact I have proposal: both names, Republika Srpska and Bosnia-Herzegovina should be changed (We can give former names to these lands: Vrbaska Banovina and Drinska Banovina). I am sure that nobody would think that these names are insulting, but the whole world would laugh at us. PANONIAN

The reason for a statement that name and insignia is intolerant to other Bosnians is clear from above conversation and it deals with most recent history of RS and the way and conditions under which it was created (ethnic cleansing and genocide). In history many names and insignia of countries were changed due to problems that its meanings represented (ie. Third Reich, USSR etc.) . I think that further discussion on this topic is pointless.--Dado 19:07, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This little tirade about the name "Bosnia and Herzegovina" being offensive to Serbs is laughable. Partly because of the sheer stupidity of the faulty analogy, and partly because it simply isn't true. Dado has pretty much echoed my thoughts on the matter. Asim Led 19:25, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

For Dado: There is nobody here who wants to deny that genocide in RS happened, but RS is not isolated case here. Genocide also happened in Croatia and BIH Federation, and this genocide was against Serbs. So, if name and symbols of RS are controversial because of that, then names and symbols of BIH Federation and Croatia should be considered controversial too. Imagine that Serbs from Croatia demand that Croatia change its name, flag and coat of arms because genocide against Serbs, which happened under that symbols. However, it is not democratic that any minority anywhere impose its will to majority. Since Serbs are majority in RS, I do not see why minorities should to decide what would be a name and symbols of that entity. As for your statement that many names of states in history were changed because of similar reasons as RS, I want to hear what that states are (Third Reich and USSR didn’t changed its name, but collapsed as states, find some other example, please). For Asim: If you do not believe that name of Bosnia is insulting for Serbs, then ask Serbs who live there. I live in Vojvodina and I know some Serbs who come here from Bosnia and I can tell you that name of Bosnia is quite insulting for them (They even never saying that they come from Bosnia, but they saying that they come from Republika Srpska). For many of them Bosnia even doesn’t exist. PANONIAN

Genocide by RS was proven at ICTY. If you can find a credible court system that will prove the same for BIH Federation and Croatia I will support the move to take any necessary measures to right the wrong supposedly commited by that entity and country. Those responsible for genocide should bear the stigma of genocide, and it should serve as a warning to those who may in future contemplate the commission of such a heinous act. Until you and your friends realize what that means I won't have to waste my time trying to prove you anything.--Dado 05:25, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Genocide in Croatia is commited at least during WW2 as stated by Encyclopedia of Holocaust. Republic of Srpska's constitution has a responsibility to all three of its constitutional people equally. --81.93.75.129 10:11, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Republika Srpska: a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs or not?

I decided to open a new headline because in the discussion above (Intolerant name? Intolerant insignia?; please read for context) we came across a very important question which needs to be answered. As I said before, I always thought that Republika Srpska is supposed to be a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs at its core (without this element there is on other purpose for its existence as far as I can see). I say "at its core" in de facto context, recognizing that there is a discrepancy in real life between what something is on a piece of paper and what it really is on the ground (examples are constitutional definitions). Now Dado is raising a possibility that I had a wrong impression about Republika Srpska in the last ten (or so) years since I first heard about Dayton and Bosnia's entities, and that Republika Srpska never was (or never was envisioned; by whom?) a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs. I would now like to hear input from other people on this issue as well. Is Republika Srpska in its essence a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs, and if not - what exactly is it supposed to be?

I did not intend to claim that RS was or was not a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs. That was besides my point and an assumption that you have made.--Dado 01:36, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ok. In that case let me ask you directly to avoid any confusion: Dado is Republika Srpska a form of territorial autonomy for the Bosnian Serbs?

I refer the answer to your question to whoever wants to answer it. My intent was to take claims assumed in my name out of this context.--Dado 02:25, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Pictures from the camps in the main article?

Hm. We now have a picture from a camp in the main article. If the trend continues, next there will be mass graves and beheaded bodies. I am concerned that this is turning the main article into a propaganda page - even a Wikipedia entry for Nazi Germany has no pictures of camps and atrocities, and there are plenty. This really has no place in the main article. A Wikipedia article about war crimes and atrocities committed by the Bosnian Serbs (and others) should exist, but it should be a stand-alone and link to this page. Please do not post such pictures here because it is not appropriate, but create a separate article and provide a link.

I agree, I made a stub for Omarska. --Joy [shallot] 21:28, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sorry guys but I was just trying to make a point regarding the definition of the concentration camps vs detention camps. It also seems that some want to negate the significance and the level of attrocities commited by RS which is also not a part of the neutral point of view. I support a stub for Omarska and moving the picture to its appropriate page.--Dado 22:13, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A Map of Greater Serbia added? ("Early History" section)

Well now we have a map of what looks like a map of Greater Serbia with a support text that seems to justify the creation of RS. I don’t want to get into implicit reasoning of the person that added this to an article but his claims seem to be limited and simplistic to say the least. This addition either needs to be heavily edited or removed completely. By the way the territory of the RS was created by a GPS mapping software in Dayton, Ohio that calculated the 49% territory of BH in real time (it is a quite impressive piece of machinery by the way) with a final option calculated on a 20th day of the Dayton negotiations. The territory of RS has nothing to do with the history or geography of the region.--Dado 19:24, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I removed the riddiculeous early history section of the Republika Srpska. Highly missleading and grossly POV. The fact of the matter is that the Republika Srpska does not need an early history because it was created for the first time in the 1990s. With countries such as Bosnia and Herzegovina you can trace its development throughout history, through yugoslavia, to the banovinas in the early 20th century, to the austriohungarian province, to the Ottoman pashaluk, etc. With Republika Srpska you need to go no further than the war in the closing decade of the last century to find out where its boundaries and statehood comes from.

As for the map, it is completely wrong; a medieval joke that's already been debunked everywhere on wikipedia except articles where Serbian editors reign supreme. Like Joy once said, "(the map is) wildly inaccurate and prominently features the pan-Serbian mythological Serbia that spanned gobs of territory." See the De Administrando Imperio page for more information. Asim Led 21:08, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Before you proclaim DAI to be "a medieval joke", I would suggest you read "Constantine Porphyrogenitus and His World" by medieval Oxford scholar Arnold Joseph Toynbee (ISBN: 019215253X). Books like this are made for people who think they know (but they don't). Nevertheless, I agree that such a map (and its context) should be in an article titled 'History of Bosnia' (or similar), and simply link here.

Sorry Dado and Asim, but seems that you both do not like RS much, and that is why you object, because I posted facts about early history of RS. But what I posted are only historical facts, and there is no scientific or historical reason to delete those. You can’t deny that Serbs in RS have early political history. So, as I said above, your reasons to delete this are only political and anti-Serb. So, both of you, try to show some tolerance, please. I didn’t go to Bosnia history page to delete history of Bosniaks, so, why you deleting history of Serbs? I reverted this page (and I will do this again) until anybody can show any scientific proof that I posted anything what is not a fact. I do not want to listen this Bosniak "patriotic" anti-Serb crap here. User:PANONIAN

And I don't want to listen to yet another round of pathetic attempts to stake a claim for the Serbdom of various regions to nourish modern day sociopolitical concerns and fears. There is no reason for an early history section of the Republika Srpska because, quite frankly, the Republika Srpska has no "early history" to speak of. The area of the present day Republika Srpska has previously not been united into a single unit (or even several separate units for that matter) based on statehood, ethnicity, religion, or political trends. In short, a wikipedia reader does not need to know anything before the war in Bosnia from 1992-1996 to understand what processes resulted in the formation of the Republika Srpska. What is being done here is comparable to making a page about the history of the United States during the middle ages. Considering that the section on this page purposely deals only with the Serb people in an "ethnic analysis" through a series of unrelated and obscure mentions of Serbdom we can further extend that analogy to a page on the "medieval history of the United States" that dealt only with various speculative European settlements and explorations of the time.

The "facts" themselves are equally ridiculous. "Serbs settled this region." Right. First of all, that is false. It is true that Serbs probably settled the sporadic eastern half of the Republika Srpska. The bulk of the western half however never once fell under control of Serb tribes or Serbian rulers, instead being a key component of Croatia until it was conquered by Bosnia. The region was even known as "Turkish Croatia" for years. Second of all, exactly what does it matter which age of migrations tribe loosely settled the region? It doesn't. Not anymore than the fact that the region was settled by Illyrians before them. The question of the tribal proto-ethnic make up of 7th century Bosnia is only significant to quasi-scholars who seek historical justification for today's geopolitical situation. If your sense of ethnic identity rests on some 7th century barbarians radically different from you in nearly every possible way, well I pity you.

Then on to the "Serbian" states of Zahumlje and Travunija. Let's assume this statement is true. So what? We're talking about medieval political units that probably fought and contested each other for power regardless of a mutual ethnic identity, not some vanguards of "Serbdom", a concept that wouldn’t truly be defined for almost 900 years. And what about the many other political units that controlled Republika Srpska at this time that were unrelated to Serbs? And "between 9th and 15th centuries, some parts of present day Republika Srpska were parts of Serbia." Yes, and? Many parts weren’t, and that rule by Serbia of the eastern reaches of Bosnia hardly left an impact felt today. The land was conquered by Bosnia, and it remained an integral part of it until today. Furthermore, for the past several centuries Bosniaks have made up the major ethnicity in a bulk of this area that once, 1000 years ago, happened to be ruled by Serbia.

And then the Drinska banovina. On its page you claim that most of this banovina is today part of Republika Srpska. Incorrect. Perhaps the majority of the land is part of the RS today, but nearly half the land today belongs to the federation (Kanton 10 and 1). This situation is similar to the two other banovinas whose territory today is partially in Republika Srpska. I know it's tempting to look for a historical predecessor to the Republika Srpska, but it really does not exist asides from the varying degrees of presence of Bosnian Serbs on its territory. As for De Administrando Imperio, Constantine continously contradicts himself. I do not need to read a book on the subject to see that the work has dubious information and faults identified by many modern historians.

There are two levels to my objection to this section. Number one is that it is shamelessly POV, looking only for various referances to the Serb name to imply that this region somehow "belongs" to the Serb people as some sort of "ancestral land". If we were to actually waste time writing a nonbiased "early history of the Republika Srpska" there'd be hordes of mentions of the Croat and Bosniak influence on the region, as well as numerous other historical states and empires that have had little direct impact on the formation of the present day entity. Naturally in a region that just loosely winds from one end of Bosnia to another we'd just basically be repeating the history of Bosnia and Herzegovina up to 1992 and the section would lose any value that people who originally had wanted it in there had intended it to have. Second, and far more importantly, is that its impossible to truly write the "early history of Republika Srpska". Instead we're left with the "early history of the regions that today make up the entity known as Republika Srpska" or, as mentioned above, "early history of one half of Bosnia and Herzegovina that is nearly identical to the early history of the other half asides from having more Serbs". Such a section is blatantly unnecessary and a magnet for pitiful nationalistic vandalism, nothing more. The section would bring 0 value to the article. Period. Asim Led 00:43, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Asim and Panonian: I have a suggestion on how to solve this. We have the "See Also" subsection in the main article. Perhaps Panonian could make a new article titled "History of the Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina" or "History of the Bosnian (and Herzegovinian) Serbs" (or something similar), and provide a link to it in the "See Also" section (Panonian could use the text and the map he posted as the starting point for the new article). That way, anybody visiting Republika Srpska article would have a chance to read about the Serb history in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but that would not be a part of the main article itself. How this sounds?

That sounds like a good idea, and far better than the early history section here. I have nothing against Serbs and I realize they've played an enormous part in the history of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'd be willing to help write it and as long as it was reasonably npov and respectful of the other two nations I'd be all for it. In fact, we have a similar article on the Bosnian language wiki written by Mir Harven that I'm sure would suit the puurpose[1]. Still, I'd be opposed to using that map. Asim Led 03:46, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• I have no problem with the map, because it is in circulation ever since Toynbee first published his book on Constantine Porphyrogenitus and DAI in 1972. The version in Toynbee's book is very similar to this one (if not the same), and so far the map hasn't been contested as an inaccurate illustration of the situation described in DAI. What one does with it in terms of political (ab)use is a completely different matter; nevertheless, I would see no objection to its use in a potential article about the history of the Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina, because it illustrates DAI - one of the basic texts for the study of region's medieval history. --66.139.77.214

Ah, one book from one scholar has something like that, and you've not seen it contested, and that makes it, and whatever else people extrapolate from it regardless of context, the universal truth. Rrrright. --Joy [shallot]

I have already explained why Image:Cpw10ct.gif is a piece of completely hyperbolic wishful thinking with regard (at least) to the western border at Image talk:Cpw10ct.gif and the linked Talk:History of Bosnia and Herzegovina#pictures_recently_uploaded_by_Jwalker_and_ARD. It's amusing that this is revisited, but the distinction between amusing and annoying is quickly disappearing... --Joy [shallot] 09:55, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Joy: I transferred this discussion to the Talk page under the map itself - there is no point of having it here anyways. I added some more historiographical sources you can take a look at if you want to have a serious discussion about the DAI map. It seems to me that you tend to dismiss the map because you don't like what you see on it (which is about impression, not historical accuracy).

Well, judging by what you wrote at Image talk:Cpw10ct.gif, I could say the same thing... --Joy [shallot]

Perhaps I will open new article about history of Serbs in BIH/RS, if my free time allow me to do this. However, I am more interested in history of various political or geographical regions in the territory of Former Yugoslavia, then in the history of nations who live there (including history of Serb nation). So, I want to focus on two most important questions about history of RS: (1) it is not appropriate to start history of RS with the year 1991. It should to be at least some brief history of the region before 1991. This history could be titled: early history of the region, and we could at least wrote to which countries territory of present-day RS belonged in history (In 2 or 3 sentences at maximum). I will not insist that we include history of Serbs here, but we can wrote that territory of present-day RS belonged in history to Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Austro-Hungary, etc. (2) Vrbaska banovina is clearly an political predecessor of RS (They even shared same capital city), and it should be mentioned in this early history. User:PANONIAN

I completely agree with what Asim Led wrote about the present "Early History" section. It may be fixable, but as it is now, it's just silly. I can see why someone would want it, but it's still silly. The articles on the history of BiH and the article on the Serbs are appropriate, existent, and sufficient. --Joy [shallot] 22:48, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I see no problem to make a serious discussion about what to put in early history of RS section, but I do not agree with statement that early history of RS is covered with articles about history of BIH and history of Serbs (History of RS is completely other subject then history of BIH or history of Serbs). Now, look these articles about some other regions of Balkans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvania You can see that both, Dalmatia and Transylvania have their own early histories written here (Their histories are not covered with articles about history of Croatia or Romania). RS is not different then any other region of Balkans and it should to have its own early history section too. Here is what I will do: I will open early history section again, but I will post there only few (I hope) undisputed facts from the recent history. So, I will leave space for other people to fulfil this section with more facts, which they regard as important. User:PANONIAN

Panonian, your comparison with Dalmatia (at least) does not make sense because the region of Dalmatia was *called* Dalmatia several centuries before the Slavs came, whereas the statelet of Republika Srpska has been called Republika Srpska since 1992, and never before in recorded history. A section about what came before can perhaps be alled "origins", but not "early history". And those origins are in the Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina, are they not? Was it not the argument of those same people who founded the RS that they were being ignored as a constitutional nation of BiH when the republic's independence was being voted on? --Joy [shallot] 11:35, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have a feeling like I am taking crazy pills here. Dalmatia and Transylvania have early histories because they existed for several centuries and there is something to say about it. The information that you provide in Early History of RS is to say the least limited and false. You conviniently took out of the context few episodes in region's long and complex history and presented them as historical facts that are supposed to proove... what?? I don't see any relation of Vrbaska banovina (whose history is also quite missguided by the way) with today's RS. Your activity on this article is clearly done in a bad faith in order to misguide the truth about RS, which is pure and simple. There was no RS before 1992 and there was no RS history before 1992 (other than history of Serbs) nor there was a historical precedent that would justify creation of RS before 1992. Please move your assumptions and suppositions to an appropriate article where they can be verified agianst the complete set of facts about the region and people that inhabit it. --Dado 19:44, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

For Dado: I want opinion about this issue from somebody who is not Bosniak or Croat (And who is not enemy of the Serbs and enemy of RS).User:PANONIAN

This bit is particularly enlightening to your attitude... Please stop imagining excessive hostility towards the Serbs and the RS where there is none. There has been little or no excessive partisanship in this article, only the occasional exchange of provocations that were soon reverted. The article clearly was not written from a POV that bashes RS, but one that analyzes it fairly normally. --Joy [shallot]

My opinion is that current version of RS history is anti-Serb and it sends certain political message. So, you and your friends here are the one who want to prove something with current version of RS history. You want to justify your political opinion that RS should be abolished.User:PANONIAN

Where do you find this opinion justification issue? Maybe in "A revision or withdrawal of the Dayton Agreement would not cause a discontinuation of Republika Srpska [...], only a democratic consensus."? If you are able to find this opinion in the article text that merely points out facts, maybe you yourself are afraid that the opinion is warranted and feel a need to counteract it? --Joy [shallot]

So your one-sided version of RS history tends to create a false impression that RS is genocide state. Serbs and RS can’t be charged for any kind of genocide, because genocide was only committed by one regime and isolated individuals, who have nothing to do with Serbs and RS. Statements about concentration camps (and similar things) have no place in normal and neutral history of RS!!! And you do not see relation between RS and Vrbaska banovina only because you do not want to see. I will not argue with you about this any more. You can continue to spread anti-Serb propaganda until some Serb who lives in RS come here to deal with you (I am not much interested in this article). User:PANONIAN

And Dado, I noticed that you wrote large historical section about history of Bosanska Krajina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanska_Krajina So, an non-existing region such is Bosanska Krajina could to have its own early history, while RS (which is more state then region) can`t. User:PANONIAN

You are wholly incorrect about that. The history section for the region of Bosanska Krajina begins at the point where that territory acquired its name - it explains how it was called before when it became a territorial unit in itself (not just an unnamed part of other units) in *one single paragraph*, and then starts talking about it under that name. --Joy [shallot]

Panonian: I would suggest you to cool off and refrain from any more personal attacks (ie. fascists and hypocrite) as this clearly falls under Wikipidia's vandalism definition.--Dado 22:00, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What ever you say. You will--Dado 04:09, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)--Dado 04:09, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC) not see me again in this talk page. User:PANONIAN

I said that I will not come to this talk page again, but I have to answer some claims here. I will not discuss here any more history of RS, but, Joy, just look this again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanska_Krajina See what is written there: "The numbers are still not determined but it is estimated that anywhere between 10,000 and 30,000 Bosnians were executed as part of the ethnic cleansing campaign of the Bosnian Serbs". The person who wrote this (I will not name this person) accused the whole Serbian nation (not only responsible individuals) for ethnic cleansing against "Bosnians" (What ever "Bosnians" are in this case). Yet, the same person didn’t wanted to say that Serbs were ethnically cleansed from parts of Bosanska Krajina (And many Serbs were executed too). We know that Serbs were majority in Bosanski Petrovac, Drvar, Bosansko Grahovo, Glamoc and Kupres. It is obvious that Serbs were ethnically cleansed from that parts of Bosanska Krajina, but somebody didn’t wanted to mention this. And you claim that these articles are not anti-Serb.User:PANONIAN

Well, the sentence you quoted is narrow in scope, but it appears to be true (Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats and whoever else count as "Bosnians"). If there was other ethnic cleansing, please edit the article to include that. The above claim does not actually *contradict* yours. Just because someone is describing what happened to one's own people that doesn't make them anti-<other people>. On the other hand, when someone says that Serbia reached up to Una river in the 10th century, this *contradicts* the other texts that says medieval Croatia was there instead. --Joy [shallot]

Ok, you don’t have to trust me, I do not live in RS, but ask some Serb who live in RS and he will tell you are these articles anti-Serb or not. And I will not write article about history of Serbs in BIH/RS (If somebody else want to write this article, he is free to do that). My intention only was to write an early history of RS, but I can`t work with people who have political attitude. RS is mainly populated with Serbs and I regard every attempt to delete history of Serbs from early history of RS as attack on these Serbs.User:PANONIAN

But it's not the entire history of the Serbs that is being deleted, merely those narrow statements. The word Serbs is linked very early on in the article and when one clicks on it they get to the history of the Serbian nation. If you wish, we can make that explicit by saying For the origins of Republika Srpska, please see Serbs#History in the history section. --Joy [shallot] 12:12, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

For example, you will never see me to write anything about Serb history in Kosovo page of wikipedia, because Kosovo is mainly populated with Albanians (And you will also never see me to delete history of Albanians there). Unlike some people, I am tolerant towards other nations, but I have zero tolerance towards certain political attitudes. User:PANONIAN

I have copied the last edit by Panonian to the Bosanska Krajina discussion page. Please if you have any objection regarding that article to use the appropriate discussion page as this topic is getting out of control. --Dado 04:09, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps we are close to consensus here about the origins section, but I have to note that article about Bosanska Krajina is not history, but more geography. User:PANONIAN

autochthon history of RS

Maybe we found some compromise about early history of RS section, but the discussion about this question is far from over. All regions (and countries) in this World have two kinds of histories: "autochthon history" and "imposed history". Term "imposed history" means history of region in the periods of time, when that region was under foreign rule (term foreign rule could be defined in many ways, including the definition that even some present day regions are currently under foreign rule of country where they are located). On the contrary, autochthon history means history of region in the periods of time, when that region or its present constituent parts were independent or autonomous. Only autochthon history is a true history of any region in the World.

I admit that my knowledge about history of RS is not significant, so, I suggest that people who have more knowledge about this subject then me should to write the true autochthon history of RS. All independent or autonomous political creations, which originally existed in the territory of present day Republika Srpska, are important for this autochthon history.

So far, I found this:

1. Principality of Travunija (Trebinje) existed in the territory of present day RS in the 9th century.

2. Principe Pavle Radenovic ruled in the territory of present day RS in the 15th century.

3. Sandzak of Zvornik was administrative unit of Ottoman Empire in the 16th century.

4. Banja Luka County was administrative unit of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes between 1918 and 1922.

5. Vrbaska oblast was administrative unit of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes between 1922 and 1929.

6. Vrbaska banovina was province of Kingdom of Yugoslavia between 1929 and 1941.

7. Republika Srpska was established in 1992.

If anybody know more facts about autochthon history of RS (no matter if this autochthon history is connected to Serbs, Croats or Bosniaks), it would be good to post this information here, and then we can open new article about autochthon history of RS. User:PANONIAN

Regions in RS - again!

Where are you people getting this idea that Republika Srpska is divided into administrative 'regions'? There is no such thing as 'regions' in Republika Srpska, there are no offically existing administrative divisions in RS other then municipalities.

Srpska - noun and adjective

You have said "using the previous precedents such as the word "hrvatska" (which means both "Hrvatska" - Croatia and "hrvatska" - Croatian as an adjective, f.), the word Srpska was also declared to be a proper noun". There is no precedent with the word "hrvatska". In Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian language almost every name of the state is both noun and adjective - Bugarska (Bulgaria), Madjarska (Hungary), Grcka (Greece), Njemacka (Germany), Francuska (France), Engleska (England), etc. So, the noun "Srpska" was not declared to be a noun. The noun Srpska, as the name of the state, the republic or the entity is completely based on language rules and the spirit of Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian language.

I propose that you either delete this part (from the words "because the word" to the words "declared to be a proper noun", or to explain the creation of names of states in Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian language.

Stevo

One-word name

sh: Republika Srpska (RS) = en: The Republic of Serbland = de: Republik Serbland

one-word name: sh: Srpska = en, de: Serbland

(Srpski jezički priručnik, Beograd 2004)

some info here: http://www.rastko.org.yu/filologija/bbrboric-jezik/bbrboric-jezik5.html

Greater Serbia Link

This is the second time I have had to revert the anonymous deletion of the link to Greater Serbia. It is NOT conjecture or speculation that the geographical area comprised by the Republic is claimed by Serbian irridentists as part of a "Greater Serbia" - this is an objective fact. The link is highly relevant to anyone interested in the article and the causes of Balkan wars or Serbian irridentism, irrespective of whether that article or this one have ongoing debates with respect to neutrality. Anonymous users should not be constantly logging on and deleting RELEVANT links to other articles because of some bizarre POV they may have. The issue is quite simple: (a) There is (and has been for some time0 such a thing as Serbian irridentism, characterized by a wish to establish (or re-establish) a Greater Serbia. (b) A variety of geographical areas which are not currently part of the Republic of Serbia are claimed by adherents of Serbian irridentism to be part of a Greater Serbia (it may be obvious, but claiming certain geographical areas outside of current borders is required and definitive of and for the very existence of Serbian irridentism). (c) Republika Srpska comprises some of the geographical territory claimed by Serbian irridentists. (d) Therefore, a link to that article from this one is *most* appropriate. These are the objective facts. Please stop deleting links anonymously and from an obviously non-neutral POV that is simply interested in dissassociating this article from the claims made by Serbian irridentists. --Nicodemus75 21:26, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

---

• Geographical area comprised by the Republic is also claimed today by Croatian extremists as part of a "Greater Croatia" - this is also an objective fact. If Greater Serbia link should be here, so should a Greater Croatia one as well. To check the validity of my claim, see the Ustaše article, especially the Neo-Ustašism section and external links to present day Ustaša sites

---

One more thing: the area of RS is also claimed by adherents of Bosniak irridentism to be part of a Unitary Islamic Bosnia. If article have link to Greater Serbia, then should have links to Greater Croatia and Unitary Islamic Bosnia as well. The greatest threat for peace and stability in Bosnia are those people who want to turn this country into "Islamic Emirate". User:PANONIAN

---

That's fine, but there is no article for Unitary Islamic Bosnia, so it really is absurd to have a red-link to a non-existant article.--Nicodemus75 17:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

---

You are right about that. There is also no proper article about Greater Croatia as well, since it is only redirect to the Independent State of Croatia, and that is not the same. I do not claim that Greater Serbia ideology do not exist, but it is not neutral to present only this ideology and not to present ideology of Greater Croatia or Unitary Bosnia. All these ideologies are equally destructive and somebody should write articles about last two for the sake of neutrality. User:PANONIAN

---

Chronic bad reverts and changes by anonymous user 81.93.75.129

Please stop making these unsubstantiated reversions and changes on a daily basis. Firstly, (and most importantly) your changes are riddled with grammatic errors which demonstrate a clear lack of understanding of the English language and the meaning of some of the original text you keep trying to change, which you erroneously dub as "vandalism in action" (whatever that means). "In 2005, goverment of Republika Srpska refuse proposal for integrated police systems." Sentences of this poor nature have no place in the article, considering I have already expressed the rejection of the integration proposals in a grammatically correct manner. Secondly, your repeated reversions with respect to Banja Luka being the capital is a product of two things: an apparent lack of understanding of the unreverted paragraph which states that Banja Luka is the capital in the first place, and your refusal to provide a documented source that the constitution has been amended. Article 9 of the constitution names Sarajevo as the capital of Republika Srpska. I can find no evidence of an amendment to article 9 of the constitution in 2003 or any other time. The WP article already states that Banja Luka is the de facto capital of the state, there is no need for your constant (and grammatically incorrect) reversions stating an unproven change of capital in this manner. Your other changes are simply POV and nothing more, the fact remains that other Bosnians as objectively offended by some of the insignia. I have no horse in that race (not even being Slavic) - it is just a fact. Also note that this has been previously debated.--Nicodemus75 13:56, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

1. www.icty.org call Omarska, Tropolje and Manjaca detention camps so to call them concentration camps is untrue and that is vandalism. --81.93.75.129 09:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

This is a semantic irrelevancy. "Detention Camp" and "Concentration Camp" are the same thing.--Nicodemus75 10:23, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Due to oxford dictionary, it is not. So, please use official ICTY terms. --81.93.75.129 10:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

2.To some, the name and insignia of Republika Srpska are inherently intolerant towards other Bosnians and evoke very negative connotations of war-time problems for them. This is also irrelevant because Republika Srpska is constitutional entity in Bosnia and Hercegovina. To some Serbians existence of Bosnia and Hercegovian envoke very negative connotations of war-time problems to them. But that sentence STILL don't appear in Bosnia and Hercegovina article. You add that sentence there and I can perserve old sentence (with evident grammar errors) here. --81.93.75.129 09:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

This issue has already been debated and concensus reached by previous editors. The content of the article on Bosnia and Hercegovina is irrelevant to the contents of this article. I could care less what is or is not contained in that article or indeed if it has an article at all, for the purposes of stating factual and verifiable information in this article. "I" am not going to go "add" sentences to some other article because you want them there - if you wish to edit some other article, go ahead but contents of other articles have no relationship to your chronic unsubstantiated and poorly worded reversions here.--Nicodemus75 10:23, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I cannot see any concensus. If you don't have such sentenced in articles like Croatia (WW2 genocide in Croatia), in Germany, etc. it means that it don't have sence here either. --81.93.75.129 10:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Finally, you continue to revert out information regarding the capital of Repulika Srpska, despite my specific request to demonstrate that Article 9 of the constitution has been amended. If you do not stop making this blatantly POV reversion, I will have to file a complaint asking your power to edit this article be restricted. --Nicodemus75 10:23, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Go ahead - I have my opinion, you have yours. It don't SHOW that you have right. I must remind you that you had been suggested to use official ICTY (www.icty.org) information about war crimes in former Yugoslavia and you had been refused. So it might mean that you are biased. --81.93.75.129 10:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Constant changes and editing in "update-deduce" mode

I appreciate attempts to keep this page up to date, but I would also like to point out that Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia rather than a news service. Changes that occur over time should be reflected in the article, but updating does not mean simply erasing the content that was previously true. To explain: last time I visited the page, it stated that the entity (RS) has its own army and ministry of defence. Now the page is only stating that the new state-level ministry is in charge, and that the entity armies are to be abolished - without any reference to the fact that the entity had its own army and ministry of defence during the 1992-2005 period (?). Next thing I suspect is that there won't be a word about entity's army in the article at all (with everybody wandering who was fighting the war there). This is not really updating - it is updating with constant deduction of important information along the way, and in my opinion this is not a way to do it. If there are changes (certain government branches are abolished, changed somehow or whatever), the new reality should indeed be reflected by the article but the old state of affairs should still be there as a reference (stated in past rather than present tense). I see that the main cause of these updates-deductions is user Dado, so I dedicate this comment (mostly) to him.

Unitary vs. united

I re-introduced unitary into the text, because this term implies a state that has no autonomous regions of any kind - only the state level and municipalities (thus, a highly centralized state rather than a federal/confederal arrangement). Bosnia without entities would be a unitary state. United Bosnian state means something else - it implies that there is in fact more than one Bosnian state which are supposed to unite, and that is not the case here.

A clear example of this would be the USA (the United States of America) - it is a federal state, but that does not mean that it is not united (or that it is disunited). If there were no state levels of government in the US that would imply a unitary state (centralized).

Ridiculous claim about the composition of the population

What is exactly the point of quoting erroneous information in the population segment of the article, and stating that the Serbs are 60% of the population when everybody knows that the Serbs are 85-90% of population in Republika Srpska, and that relocation caused by war on all sides is the fact of reality throughout Bosnia? There are no 27% of Bosniaks in Republika Srpska, and there are no 10% of Croats in Republika Srpska - this is science fiction and wishful thinking, and it should be removed from the article as such. Wikipedia is not a political forum but a collection of facts - some of you need to realize this.

Latest POV problems

• Ethnic cleansing/Population transfer - doesn't matter to me, it just gets reverted with everything else.
  • It is ethnic cleansing. The word is used in all official documents in relevant institutions (Human Rights Watch, ICTY etc)

• Languages - People who named the republic were speakers of a certain language and have named it in that language, and if it happens that some other languages have same grammar rules, it's completely irrelevant, be they official or not. For example, it may well happen that Slovene has the same rules, but it's irrelevant.

First of all, RS was officialy recognized in Paris in 1996. as a Bosnian-Herzegovinian entity with three official languages. So it is relevant. Emir Arven 13:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The name was not coined in 1996, but in 1991. Yes, three languages are official, but two of them had no influence on the name. Nikola 15:34, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

It makes no difference who coined the phrase. If you want to look at it that way than official language in RS is Croatian as the name was taken to parallel the Republika Hrvatska. --Dado 16:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

When explaining origin of a phrase, not only that it makes difference, who made the phrase is central issue. Croatian was not an official language, and the name is not parallel to Republika Hrvatska. Nikola 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Now, explain for instance why are you using words "international community" to describe NATO? Nikola 04:10, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I have reverted Nikola's edits for following reasons: 1. He is removing critical factualy correct information from the article. 2. Edits were combination of reverts and edits manipulated in a way that one cannot track changes done by Nikola while questionable information is being sneeked in and other removed.

Both things are complete lies. Nikola

Do not resort to personal attacks. I have stated why I have issues with your edits and you should explain them (as you are doing) --Dado 16:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

No, you didn't explain why you have issues. You lied about my edits. And the third lie - I haven't made a personal attack. Nikola 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

If you want to dispute the article as it currently reads we will need to go point by point. Please list your issues here before editing the page again. Thanks --Dado 09:35, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

• First, the two things mentioned above.
• Official languages in RS are Serbian, Croatian and Bosniak, as is stated in the Constitution of RS.
  • In english there is no such thing as Bosniak language. It is Bosnian language --Dado 16:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Sorry, but there is. Bosniak language is translation of phrase "Bosnjacki jezik" from Serbian. Nikola 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
      • And Bosnjacki jezik does not exist. It is a nationalistic extrapolation of Bosanski jezik as a pathetic attempt to discredit all things Bosnian. And why do you think we need to translate the word from Serbian language. We can go back and forth on this and I will not even attempt to change your opinion.--Dado 04:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
        • "Bosnjacki jezik" is phrase used, actually, prescribed to describe certain language in Serbian language. I think we should use the translation from Serbian because the constitution of RS is written in Serbian language. Nikola 19:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• You are deleting info about UNHCR census, which is very important, as it is the only objective assessment of today's population of RS.
  • I have no problem with this data only if it is used in conjuction with data from 1991.
    • Don't see why not. Nikola 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

• "Those responsible for concentration camps remain in positions of local authority." - who are they, who says that, etc. If they are responsible, why would Hague not indict them? If there is no evidence, then there is no evidence.
  • Some of them are indicted by the ICTY. Many are on lists scheduled for indictment at BiH courts. The section could be rephrased but the removal of the issue that the camps existed and were run by authorities of RS are facts.
    • If they are indicted, why are they not imprisoned? If they are "scheduled for indictment" (the first time I hear that there is such a thing), why are they not indicted? The issue remains. Nikola 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Are you claiming that concetration camps did not exist in Bosanska Krajina region and that RS authorities did not run it. There were several convictions at ICTY against people who participated in runing these camps. I will find more detailed info on it.--Dado 04:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
        • No, I'm only claiming that there's hardly someone who was a cook in one of them and isn't arrested by now. Nikola 19:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• "name and insignia -- even the existence -- of Republika Srpska remains a matter of great controversy in Bosnia and Hercegovina, especially among the Bosniak population, many of whom view Republika Srpska as a state founded on genocide" - this would be funny if it would not be so mean. It is in fact Bosnia which is founded on genocide, for Serbs would likely be majority population in it had there not been genocide perpetrated upon them in WWII. Not to mention that for most Serbs even appropriation of words Bosnia, FBiH, Bosniak, Bosnian language etc. are a matter of controversy, yet respective articles don't mention it.
  • issue about name and insignia was disscussed before. Read the discussion. It is relevant to state that probably 70% of population of BiH considers RS to be founded on genocide. The genocide was proven at one occasion (Srebrenica) and indictments were issued for genocide on general teritory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Yes there was a genocide over Serbs in WWII and it was conducted by fascist government of "Independent State of Croatia" which was defeated and disbanded. Bosniaks also suffered a genocide in WWII conducted by Chetnics predominantly in eastern Bosnia. Portraing name of Bosnia as equivalency for RS in historical context is misplaced and generaly manipulated by nationalist propaganda.--Dado 16:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Well, I have, and I disagree still. We of course should write about feelings of 70% of BiH population, but it is not NPOV if, especially in this article, we write only about that and not about feelings of 90% of RS population (which, by the way, should be done in articles on BiH and FBiH as well - would you do it?). Your other points are irrelevant yet wrong - ICTY has no credibility whatsoever, the ISC government has employed local population to commit the crimes, Chetnik crimes are an order of magnitude or two smaller and could hardly be described as genocide, especially given reason for them. Nikola 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
      • We are talking about institutions here. Bosniaks dispute the RS institution (not necessarily Serbs) as much as ISC institution was (rightfully ) disputed in WWII. Again feelings about Bosnia are misguided and unjustified and used only to support nationalist politics. Also by claiming that ICTY has no credibility you have just lost all credibility. An intelegent person would not make such remark. We may have a creative revisions on hands here --Dado 04:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
        • No they don't. Bosnian Muslims dispute RS institutions much more than they have ISC's in WWII. And most Serbs dispute not only Bosnia as institution but even the very existence of Bosniaks, Bosnian language, their use of name "Bosnia", misappropriation of fleur-de-lis, etc. and you know that. And they would say that feelings about RS are misguided and unjustified and used only to support nationalist politics. And yet I have never felt the need to go to articles about Bosnia or Bosniaks and insert lengthy paragraphs about it.
          I don't know is is "intelegent" to claim that ICTY has no credibility, but it is true. ICTY is completely illegal, illegitimate, and doesn't have even a semblance of impartiality. It has no credibility whatsoever. Nikola 19:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• "On December 15, 2003, the government of Republika Srpska established the Commission for the Investigation of the events" etc. - out of place, POV, and wrong. First, this is covered heavily in article on Srebrenica massacre, which is linked from this article. It is POV because that paragraph has around one fifth of its section, and it is heavily POV to create impression that the most important event in the war in which tens of thousands people were killed was a single massacre of 8,000, not to mention that the number is disputed; and it is heavily POV to devote so much space to it without devoting any space whatsoever to Serbian victims of the war. Finally, it is wrong, because the commission that the government established didn't actually arrive at that conclusion; but after that there was heavy political pressure, another commission was formed, and even then its member were pressured, etc. So, conclusions of the second commission can not be taken for granted, nor could the government's "acceptance" of them.

• Large text below the map is overkill.
  • The texs is relevant. Perhaps it can be edited but not removed.
    • It is on the image page of the map and the caption says "click for more detail". Nikola 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

• Two versions about Dayton are similar, and I'm OK with both, though I think that it must be explicitly stated that cancelling of Dayton agreement would not cause a discontinuation of RS.

• NATO and EU are not the international community, so the other version is factually inaccurate. Further, if the parliament is under pressure then it can't agree to anything. If someone points a gun to your head, do you agree to give him your wallet?
  • decisions were made based on influence by OHR which is UN appointed agency. UN is generally considered and international community. You obviously never had a gun pointed to your head to recognize the difference between a gun and political pressure.--Dado 16:49, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Are you suggesting that you can not be killed by political pressure? OHR is also mostly influenced by the same set of countries, so it still does not represent international community. Nikola 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

• The banknote is, as I said, not needed. There are no images of banknotes of countries in articles on their subdivisions.
  • The banknote is an RS issued version of official banknote in use in RS and BiH.
    • OK then, but it should have been in the caption. But the image says "Central bank of Bosnia and Herzegovina"? Nikola 00:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Nikola 15:34, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Nikola asked me to look at this heating conversation and to give my oppinion. I've read the posts, and do have my comments, but some of these discusions are more/less closed by now, so I'll try to avoid heating them up again, and I'll just say that I mostly agree with Nikola's oppinions. -- Obradović Goran (ta^lk 21:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't say that the discussion is closed, but that both Dado and Emir were unwilling to discuss. Anyway, as we agree, I have edited the article to conform with the points. Nikola 09:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Let’s review shall we:

• You are changing the name of Bosnian language to Bosniak language. Last time I checked we were speaking English and this is a Wikipedia in English language. Name Bosnian language is prescribed name. Serbs could call it Martian in their language for all I care but in this situation (or any other concerning English language) it is Bosnian.
  • English language doesn't have a body which prescribes words in it. Term "Bosniak language" is used in English alongside "Bosnian language", though more rarely. And the Constitution of RS uses term which in English would be translated as "Bosniak language". Nikola 11:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

This is just Serb nationalism, again. Serb policy during the war in Bosnia is responsible for Srebrenica genocide killing more than 8000 people, because of their names and their identity, including language which they called Bosnian. The name of the language is defined in ISO-639 standard in English as Bosnian. All software (operating systems e.g. Windows XP and applications, including email services) use Bosnian language, because they act according to ISO standard.

Well, that bit about standards is all nice and true, but unfortunately, the constitution of Republika Srpska does not follow ISO 639 standard. Nikola 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

You are not improving the article, you are just continuing to spread nationalism, fascism and lies. And that is obviously your mission, according to your user page. --Emir Arven 13:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

My user page says that "My interest is in spreading knowledge about Serbs, Serbia, Serbian culture and history." Apparently it is YOU who has some problems when you read "Serbs" and think "fascism". Nikola 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

• You are removing the paragraph that talks about the name of RS. There are two court cases regarding this issue. First is a court case filed in the Bosnian constitutional court that asks for name of Republika Srpska to be changed as it clearly has a mono-ethnic connotations. For same reasons many cities in RS had to be changed to its original name. Second court case is in the International Criminal Court as part of the BiH vs Serbia Montenegro case for aggression that stipulates that aggression was conducted on Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina which resulted in creation of illegal entity of Republika Srpska. (Federation of BiH could be considered illegal as well). Until these two cases are settled and judgments are made it is at least valid to point that there is a dispute about the name and existence of RS.

• • You are muddling the issue here. First, language rules for the creation of names of countries in Bosnian, and Croatian languages are irrelevant because the name is created in Serbian. Now, you don't want to hear my opinion about neutrality of Bosnian constitutional court or the International Criminal Court; either way, that paragraph is irrelevant POV commentary. As I said, for most Serbs even appropriation of words Bosnia, FBiH, Bosniak, Bosnian language etc. are a matter of controversy, yet respective articles don't mention it. I have not inserted such info in them because I don't think it is relevant, and so the same should apply here.
  • But, you know what, we might have reached an agreement here. If you still believe that that commentary is relevant, I'd let it stay in the article, but I'll also add equivalent commentary to articles on Bosnia, Bosnians, Bosniaks, Bosnian language etc. However, as I believe that they might attract vandalism, would you agree to revert such vandalism? If not, I can't let the commentary stay here as well as it would imbalance the article. Nikola 11:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

As I said before you are just nationalist which is opsessed with Serbs, so you are not acting in the spirit of Wikipedia, so you are ready to spread incorrect information. But there is a cure for such behaviour. Emir Arven 13:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• You are removing paragraphs about Srebrenica investigation which can only be seen as vandalism. I don’t understand what is your reasoning for removal of those valid and correct texts.
  • I shall copy the relevant paragraph from when I have first started the discussion, which has not been answered to:
  • "On December 15, 2003, the government of Republika Srpska established the Commission for the Investigation of the events" etc. - out of place, POV, and wrong. First, this is covered heavily in article on Srebrenica massacre, which is linked from this article. It is POV because that paragraph has around one fifth of its section, and it is heavily POV to create impression that the most important event in the war in which tens of thousands people were killed was a single massacre of 8,000, not to mention that the number is disputed; and it is heavily POV to devote so much space to it without devoting any space whatsoever to Serbian victims of the war. Finally, it is wrong, because the commission that the government established didn't actually arrive at that conclusion; but after that there was heavy political pressure, another commission was formed, and even then its member were pressured, etc. So, conclusions of the second commission can not be taken for granted, nor could the government's "acceptance" of them.
  • As you don't mention other issues, I hope they are no longer a problem now. Nikola 11:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Just a sick person can deny genocide in Srebrenica. Emir Arven 13:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Just a demented person can believe that everyone will believe something just because ICTY said so. Nikola 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Or let me give it a shot: It seams to me that your primary goal here is to portray RS as a state which is not quite independent but it sure would very much like to be independent but unfortunately it is hindered by piles of corpses that it was founded on and, darn it, it is part of a legally recognized country already. So the first thing to do is to disassociate RS with anything that refers to its legal “guardian” BiH or which is being identified as Bosnian. More perversely the next thing is to eliminate all those pesky corpses that are stifling our progress towards independence so let’s just shove them under the carpet (or secondary mass grave). Pathetic. --Dado 18:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Why would I have to do that when RS was created when Bosnia was still not a legally recognised country, and the Other Entity also has some piles of corpses on its own? Nikola 11:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Bosnia was recognised as independent country in april 1992. So you have again showed your Serb nationalism, spreading lies. But this is not strange becaue the ICTY is full of Serb War Criminals who have identical story. Emir Arven 13:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Republika Srpska was created in January 1992. Last time I checked January comes before April. Nikola 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Nikola, I am not muddling the issue. It is as clear as day. There are cases in the court that talk about the name and existance of RS. To me it means that not only there is a public and political perception of the issue but there is also a legal backing for the claim. Comparison to the name of Bosnia is laughable. If you had a valid argument, one that is paralell to the one that I presented than you may had a point. On the other hand name Bosnia, Bosnian, Bosniak are internationally recognized and not disputed by anyone in any legal institution. Per your logic I could claim that there are many who dispute the name Serbs, Serbia, or Serbian (I would not do it because it would be equally rediculous).

I was referring to how you covered several issues at the same place. Yes, the issue exist, and I know that it exist, but I don't think it should be presented in this article, especially if similar issues are not presented in other articles on related topics. That there are no court cases in opposite direction is not surprising, legal system is not applicable to them. Nikola 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Even your claim that most Serbs disdain name Bosnian is dubious. I know many Serbs who don't object or in the worst case don't even have an opinion on the name. What you are talking about is a radical fringe (which you may be a part of); hardly a mainstream opinion.

Not the name, but the use of it. Nikola 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Interestingly on your personal page you are stating that you speak Bosnian language but you would not want to see the same noted on here as well.

Well, this page isn't about me, is it? Nikola 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the removal of Srebrenica section. The section could be edited and reduced since there is a comprehensive article on Srebrenica that this article is refering to, but what you are doing is trying to completely disassociate RS involvement and responsibility for Srebrenica by deleting the entire secion. It is a worst case of warcrimes and genocide and it deserves to be mentioned. Your other comments and claims are simply wrong, pushing POV and pushing agenda.--Dado 15:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

No, sorry, it is not certain that it is the worst case, and even if it would be, it would still not warrant mentioning if other cases, some of them quite bad as well (for example killing of around 2500 Serbs in Kazani), aren't mentioned. RS certainly isn't dissociated with Srebrenica by removal of it, it is linked in the previous paragraph. Nikola 19:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The "so-called" IEBL line (why "so-called"?).

Why are some users constantly trying to present IEBL (Inter-Entity Boundary Line) as a "so-called IEBL" in the main article? IEBL has full official existence recognized through international agreements - there is nothing "so-called" about it (?). Please stop with this nonsense.

RS population information

Republika Srpska population info that I posted in the article can be found in a purchased copy of CIA 2005 factbook (September 20th, 2005). Basic scaled-down country information (in this case for Bosnia-Herzegovina) can be found online. Please do not remove information as 'poor' and 'unconvincing' - it is available in print and official.

I was referring Nikola's edits and mistakenly deleted your edits. Sorry for confusion. Could you also sign your edits. It feels strange talking to an IP address. Thanks --Dado 16:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

RS Municipalities

For the RS government's list of municipalities, see [2].

For the Constitutional Court decision (in English), see case U 44-01 decided September 21, 2004, at [3]. 24.30.82.211 18:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

For the list of new names established after the decision, see [4] (turn off Javascript, the page will redirect you to main page) Nikola 06:03, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Republican Administrative Units

Could person who added the section about Administrative Units clarify the name Republican. In english this word has different meanings from what may had been the intent of adding the name in this article and as it is currently used in the article it may be missleading and unclear. Plase provide original untranslated word. Thanks --Dado 21:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

In every case, the word is "republički" ("републички"). The translation "republican" is taken from the official English translation supplied by the OHR's legal department. The Law on Ministries ("Zakon o ministarstvima"/"Закон о министарствима"), available here: [5]. 24.30.82.211 19:23, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Reason why I asked is becaude word "Republican" in most commonly used in the US to mean a member of or pertaining to the US Republican party and it is a first thing that comes to mind when reading about Administrative units you added. Eventhough, the article is about Republika Srpska it is the first thought that comes to mind and makes the section very strange to read. Also this wikipedia follows the original name of Republika Srpska and not the translated one so it would be a good idea to stay consistant when describing the Administrative units as well. I have added that administrative units pertain to RS. --Dado 03:47, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Emir Arven

"Incorrect! it was never recognised as a state. if u have something relevant to show (as an international official document) show us! and dont delete parts before discussion"

First you learn what an state is and then talk. Republika Srpska is internationally recognized as an "entity", but this entity is a state, not independent one, but it is a state within the Confederation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. User:PANONIAN

Bosnia is defined in the Deyton agreement not as a confederation, nor RS is defined as a state. Maybe you have some other official documents? Emir Arven 13:46, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

• So what if it is not defined in the Dayton agreement. It is not only thing which could define a state. Bosnia have attributes of an confederation and Republika Srpska have attributes of an state.

User:PANONIAN

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As for the discussion, you deleted part about expelled Serbs from BIH Federation with no discussion. You want to hide the crimes of Bosniak government during the war, do you? User:PANONIAN

Well it was not true and this is not the article about Federation. Momcilo Krajisnik, one of the many Serb leaders that are now awaiting the trial in ICTY for War Crimes, invited the Serbs to move from Federation to RS. This saying is recorded, and DISS (Serb organization from Sarajevo) said that Serbs moved to RS because of his invitation and they are now sorry for that. Emir Arven 13:46, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

What is not true? Is in not true that Bosniak government during the war killed and expelled numerous Serbs? Please... Of course it is the truth, and those expelled Serbs escaped to Republika srpska, the only place where they were safe. And of course that Serbs were invited to move to RS, it was only place where they were safe from persecutions. User:PANONIAN

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The opinion of hard-line Bosniak nationalists should Republika Srpska exist or not is not relevant for this article. The Bosniak government during the war was no better than the government of Republika Srpska and terrible crimes against ethnic Serbs were commited on the territories controlled by Bosniak government. PANONIAN 02:03, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Bull shit. The government in Sarajevo was the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the only legal and multiethnic government which was recognized by UN and the international community. On the other hand Serb rebellious government commited genocide in Srebrenica, and confessed that in 2005. Emir Arven 13:46, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

LOL. Multiethnic givernment? Dont be ridiculous. It was Bosniak islamist government, even Osama Bin Laden was the guest of that government. And you forget to say that Muslim army from Srebrenica commited genocide against Serb civilians in neighbouring villages, did you? User:PANONIAN

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Relevance of the claim about existance and name or RS is pointed out several times on this talk page. Please read it. Iterestingly most of the crimes commited against Serbs in Bosnian war happened in late 1993 and 1994 nearly two years after Serbs commited their crimes. One could consider it as retributions (although that does not excuse it). Also comparison of level of crimes of Bosniak government as same as level of crimes commited by Serb government is hardly valid and accurate keeping in mind that in 1993 and 1994, when majority of so called Bosniak crimes took place, Serbs held 70% of teritory of Bosnia while Bosniaks were fighting for the remaining 10% (20% being controlled by Croats). Bosniaks reported by far most casulties from the Bosnian war. It is also evident from ICTY that Serbs are by far most convicted for war crimes (some 75% while 5% of Bosniaks are convicted) --Dado 07:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Also what is "Confederation of Bosnia and Herzegovina"? RS is an entity. End of story. Read Dayton agreement if you need proof--Dado 07:13, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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Interestingly, the first victim of the war was ethnic Serb (the wedding in Sarajevo). One could consider later killing of ethnic Bosniaks as retributions (although that does not excuse it), dont you agree?

As for the entity, entity is a state, I have nothing to talk with non-educated people who do not know what an state is. Texas is a state, Bavaria is a state, Tamil Nadu is a state, and Republika Srpska is a state. All of them are states, just not independent ones.

Also, Dado, and Emir, you should consider that your "crusade" against Republika Srpska here is finished. I did not have time before to deal with you, but I have it now, so I will greatly improve the article about Republika Srpska, and when I finish with it, the article will contain 0% of Bosniak POV and nationalist propaganda. User:PANONIAN

You shouldnt behave like a vandal. Wikipedia is not a place for wars, I understand that Serb nationalists think so, but it is really sad. You should give some useful contribution, not just lies and propaganda. The whole world is aware what has happened in Bosnia during the war. There is ICTY and around 120 Serbs, War Criminals, there. They had the sam story that you tell us here now. Don't be so pathetic. Emir Arven 13:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I am fed up with Serb nationalism and their lunatics who spread lies and incorrect information. You didn't show us any relevant document which says that RS is a state. It is just your POV. Entity, canton or a province are not the states. The first victim was not a Serb, they were Bosnian Croats in the village called Ravno in 1991, when Serb army destroyed the village and killed their people. After that there were Bosniak victims in Bijeljina and eastern Bosnia. And Radovan Karadzic in October 1991. said that the Serbs would killed Bosniaks and destroy Bosnia and Herzegovina. Emir Arven 13:29, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Emir, maybe you should, at least from time to time, engage in discussion, and not just ramble about Serb nationalists. Just a suggestion. Nikola 19:46, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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I should not behave like vandal? Emir, you and Dado vandalizing this article for very long time with your nationalistic POV. I decided to make this article neutral in accordance with Wikipedia policy of neutrality. Am I nationalist because I want to clean the article from Bosniak nationalist POV? Please say what was nationalistic in my edits? You cannot, do you? But I can say what was nationalistic in your edits: fact is that ALL sides in Bosnian war commited war crimes and ethnic cleansing. It is against the Wikipedia policy to present here only Serb crimes and not to present Bosniak and Croat crimes against Serbs. I moved history section to separate article simply to prevent revert wars here, but if you want revert war with me you should know that nobody ever won in revert war with me. You are welcome to try of course.

I will not lower myself to your level of discussion about the question who started the war and who is convicted for war crimes. It is irrelevant. The important thing is to make neutral article and not one-sided Bosniak nationalist POV. Talking only about Serb cromes and not about Bosniak crimes is not a neutral manner of presentation. You talk about Srebrenica, but you do not talk that Muslim army from Srebrenica burned numerous ethnic Serb villages around the city and killed numerous Serb civilians in these villages before Serb army decided to capture the town to stop these attacks. The proper neutral manner of writing is to write about that too. There are only 2 manners to make neutral article:

• 1. To write about things in neutral manner
• 2. To post Bosniak POV and Serbian POV together, not only Bosniak one.

As for the question is a Republika Srpska state or not, the something which is named "Republic" cannot be anything else but a state. Every republic is a state. PANONIAN 18:14, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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One more thing, I think that we should continue our discussion here: Talk:History of Republika Srpska. PANONIAN 19:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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Dispute

"nobody ever won in revert war with me" are you people 5 year old. Take your blinds off. Nobody presented a counterarguement since my last comment--Dado 21:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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Just joking about revert war, but I am quite often on the net, so I can revert pages quite often too. What your last comment you have in mind? My intention only was to prevent further revert wars on Republika Srpska page, and to move the dispute about history of RS to the appropriate article. I left only few sentences about history here, which do not include POV or the "speech of hate". The article about Republika Srpska should only say what Republika Srpska is, not to represent the opinios about its history. Besides this the history section was one-sided Bosniak nationalist POV and it is against the neutrality policy of Wikipedia. What is your counterarguement to this? PANONIAN 22:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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Perhaps you should say something I can comment on and not generalize eveything as "Bosniak nationalist POV", whatever that it. Lets clarify something. What do you consider a "speech of hate". Be as specific as possible and state particular words and sentances that were noted on the article that made you come to such a conclusion. --Dado 22:39, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

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Well, what can you comment on anyway? Maybe this: the neutral way of presentation is to have article, which is not insulting for any of the 3 nations, which live in the Republika Srpska. Your version of the article is insulting for Serbs. Why? We know that all sides are guilty for the war crimes. If you write only about war crimes commited against the Bosniaks and do not talk about war crimes commited against the Serbs, then you send the message that Serb life is not important, you send the message that Serbs are minnor race, which should be exterminated.

Second thing, you can see that I did not deleted nothing, but simply moved history section to the new article. Since I moved it there, we do not need to have all that written here too. What I object here is the manner of presentation. The article about Republika Srpska should be neutral and should not represent the points of view (either Serb or Bosniak ones). An encyclopaedia article should have some important facts about its subject, in this case the subject is RS. Also, the article should not be insulting for people who live in RS (for all 3 peoples who live in RS). My version of the article is not insulting for any of these 3 peoples, but your version is (if my version is insulting for anybody, please say so).

Third thing, what is a Bosniak nationalist POV? For people who do not know this (you are not one of those people, of course), Bosniak nationalist POV is the point of view which have goal to spread propaganda to achive certain political purpose. The political goal of Bosniak nationalists is to create unitary ethnic state of Bosnia and Herzegovina only for ethnic Bosniaks, while Serbs and Croats would have only a minority status in that country (It is against the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which say that all 3 peoples, Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats are 3 nations of this country). Since it want to create unitary state, the Bosniak nationalism also want to abolish political entities, which make a country of Bosnia and Herzegovina (This is also against the constitution of this country, since the constitution recognize 2 political entities - Republika Srpska and BIH Federation). To achive the goal of "unitary state with no entities", the Bosniak nationalism spread propaganda against Republika Srpska, since RS as an entity is a barrage for creating unitary Bosnia. With this propaganda, the Bosniak nationalists want to "prove" that RS is "a genocidal creation", thus, because of "its genocidal nature it should be abolished". It is clear that they do not care about "genocidal nature" of RS, since if we use this view, the other entity (BIH Federation) would be also a "genocidal creation", as well as many countries of modern Europe. The obvious conclusion is that only problem, which Bosniak nationalists have with RS is that RS exist (no matter how the RS is created). So, every attempt to present RS as a "genocidal creation" is nothing but a Bosniak nationalist POV, which have one certain political goal - the abolishment of RS.

According to Wikipedia policy of neutrality, which do not support such political ideas, this kind of the presentation of the history of RS is not acceptable for one Wikipedia article. There should be separate articles which should speak about war crimes commited during the war against all 3 nations of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but this article should be only neuntral and non-biased representation of Republika Srpska, and which will not support political ideas of nationalistic politicians. The article should be written in the spirit of peace and tolerance and should not be insulting for anybody. I think that my version of the article is neutral and if somebody think that it is not, he should say this. PANONIAN 00:51, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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One more thing, it is clear that the history of RS was tragic, it is clear that all peoples of RS - Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats suffered in the past, but we should not polute the present and the future with this tragic past. What can somebody think about the people who want to use this tragic past to achive their political goals? Those people who use the victims of Srebrenica for political purposes actually killing them for second time. Every crime have a name and a surname. People who commited crimes are charged for these crimes and they are now in prison (if they not, they should be there of course). But what can someone think about people who use the mischance of the war victims to create new conflicts or new wars. It is pathetic and it is sad. PANONIAN 01:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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You are still rambling about nationalism. I have asked you simply what specific things in the article allow you to make a conclusion that article is written with bias and that there is a “speech of hate”.

I do not care for your perceptions of what Bosniaks want. I don’t care what they want nor what you want for RS. I do care that relevant facts about Republika Srpska are prominently placed on this article, facts which you are removing, hiding and censoring. These facts which are currently removed need to find their way back in the article

1. Involvement of RS in Srebrenica genocide commited in its name as defined by ICTY and supporting organizations.
2. Involvement of RS in the amount of war crimes commited in its name during the Bosnian War
3. Involvement of RS in running of concentration/detention camps as they were reported by Human Rights Watch
4. Involvement of RS in ethnic cleansing on its territory as it was reported by Human Rights Watch and proven by ICTY and numerous other agencies
5. Involevement of RS in destruction of Bosnian-Herzegovinian heritage and culture on the teritory they currently occupy with facts collected by Anex 8 Commision for Protection of National Monuments of Bosnia and Herzegovina
6. Dispute about the name, insignia and hymn of RS as the court case is filed with Bosnian Herzegovinian constitutional court and
7. Existence of RS as it is disputed through the case filed at the International Criminal Court that accuses Serbia Monte Negro for aggression on Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and de facto occupation through an illegal entity.

Once we have those truths established than we can talk about what you call “the spirit of peace and tolerance”.

For all equivalencies that you are pointing out, some of which need to be verified for accuracy, you are free to present them at their appropriate articles (Federation of BiH) --Dado 01:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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I think that I explained very good the nature of Bosniak nationalistic POV. Your last post here is just another example of this nationalistic POV. I will repeat, these things which you want to put into article represent the one-sided biased way of presentation. You want to write about crimes commited against Bosniaks and you do not want to write about crimes commited against the Serbs. You want to post here only the Bosniak point of view. It is not disputed that some of the things you mentioned happened in the past, it is disputed should we include these things into this article or not. First of all this is article about Republika Srpska, not about history of Republika Srpska. I do not see why these things from the history should be mentioned in this article, since we have separate article about history of Republika Srpska, where these things are already mentioned. Why you want to place these things into this article? Can you explain your reasons? Do you want just to prove your political point or what? Here are your words: "Once we have those truths established". Well, did you know? Wikipedia is not a place for "establishing the truth". It is place for encyclopaedic presentation of subject. If you are here to prove some political point, please find another place for this. Also, these things from the history of RS are completelly irrelevant for the RS article. It is part of the RS history and proper place for this is RS history article. Also, I do not know what I can talk more with you. I just want to other people on Wikipedia know the nature of your edits and political goals, which stand behind them. If you want serious discussion with me, please answer two simple questions:

• 1. What is wrong with the current article?
• 2. Why you insist to post entioned things into article?

PANONIAN 02:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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Sorry, I forgot to answer some things from your post. One by one:

• Srebrenica massacre was a retaliation for war crimes commited by Bosniak army from Srebrenica against the Serb civilians in neighbouring villages. If you write about Srebrenica and not mention this, then your writting would be biased.
• War crimes were commited by all 3 sides in war and nobody here is innocent.
• Concentration camps were held by all 3 sides.
• Ethnic cleansing was performed by all 3 sides.
• Destruction of heritage was act of all 3 sides.
• Name of the RS is not disputed but officially recognized by the constitution of the RS and the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The fact that few nationalistic lunatics think that name of RS is disputed is not good reason to post this sentence into article.
• The existence of RS is also not disputed but officially recognized by the BIH constitution and by the Internatiopnal community. Also, it is not International Criminal Court that accused Serbia-Montenegro for aggression, but former Bosniak government (You lie here with purpose or what?). Also, Serbia and Montenegro did not commited agression against Bosnia, it was civil war between people of Bosnia, while Republika Srpska is a entitity of those people who live in it. PANONIAN 02:24, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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What planet do you live on! Do you follow news, read reports, books. I am starting to believe that you are writing from a cellblock in The Haag jail. I am talking about the article and the subject matter and you keep talking about me!?

Article as it currently reads, while it is accurate to a certain degree, is simplistic and hardly describes the situation in reality. It resembles German national mood immediately after WWII.

Above truths (established or presented) are relevant because the entire country is stuck in them socially, culturally, economically and politically. It is the everyday subject for its population and it can be found in every aspect of their life. The country cannot progress (move towards European integrations) because they are stuck in this history and the denial is not helping while revisionism and censorship is insulting causing strain and tensions (more so than the truth itself). This is free encyclopedia after all and should respect the right to free speech. Again and this time without pointing out questionable moral equivalencies and inverting the truth:

1. Involvement of RS in Srebrenica genocide commited in its name as defined by ICTY and supporting organizations.
2. Involvement of RS in the amount of war crimes commited in its name during the Bosnian War
3. Involvement of RS in running of concentration/detention camps as they were reported by Human Rights Watch
4. Involvement of RS in ethnic cleansing on its territory as it was reported by Human Rights Watch and proven by ICTY and numerous other agencies
5. Involevement of RS in destruction of Bosnian-Herzegovinian heritage and culture on the teritory they currently occupy with facts collected by Anex 8 Commision for Protection of National Monuments of Bosnia and Herzegovina
6. Dispute about the name, insignia and hymn of RS as the court case is filed with Bosnian Herzegovinian constitutional court and
7. Existence of RS as it is disputed through the case filed at the International Criminal Court that accuses Serbia Monte Negro for aggression on Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and de facto occupation through an illegal entity.

--Dado 03:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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"What planet do you live on! Do you follow news, read reports, books. I am starting to believe that you are writing from a cellblock in The Haag jail."

LOL. Very funny. By the way, you cannot discuss here with me like a man, but you have to perform a personal "crusade" against me on the entire Wikipedia and to cry for help? Is that not childish?

"I am talking about the article and the subject matter and you keep talking about me!?"

No, I talking about biased nature of the things you want to post to the article.

"Article as it currently reads, while it is accurate to a certain degree, is simplistic and hardly describes the situation in reality. It resembles German national mood immediately after WWII."

We do not talk here about Germany but about RS and Bosnia. How do you know what is a national mood in this country since you live in USA? So, you agree then that current version of the article is accurate and not insulting for anybody? Your version of the article was here for some time and because of its biased nature it was a subject for constant revert wars. Do we need this on Wikipedia? We dont. We need an article which will not be biased and subject for revert wars. So, please say which one of these two goals is your:

• 1.Do you want to work with me to find a compromise and to create non-biased neutral article, which will be acceptable for all, and which will not be insulting for anybody, or
• 2.Do you want to "establish here your biased truths", which are not truth but views of SDA political leaders, and which will be subject of constant revert wars in the future as they were in the past?

So, which one of these 2 is your goal? Do you want to write neutral and decent article or to damage Wikipedia project with nationalist propaganda? If you want serious discussion how article should look, I will discuss with you.

"Above truths (established or presented) are relevant because the entire country is stuck in them socially, culturally, economically and politically."

Let be clear about one thing. What you call "truths" are not truths but political views of nationalistic extremists from Bosniak SDA party. So, the nature of their views is biased, thus not acceptable for Wikipedia.

"It is the everyday subject for its population and it can be found in every aspect of their life."

Wrong. It is every day subject for nationalistic lunatics from SDA political party. Ordinary people in Bosnia or RS do not care about this shit, but they care how they will find a job and live their lives.

"The country cannot progress (move towards European integrations) because they are stuck in this history and the denial is not helping while revisionism and censorship is insulting causing strain and tensions (more so than the truth itself)."

The country cannot progress because some people like you are stuck in this history (fortunatelly for the country, you do not live there, but let the people who live there to live in peace). You are obvious representative of revisionism here.

"This is free encyclopedia after all and should respect the right to free speech."

Only if this "free speech" is not insulting nationalistic propaganda.

As for your 7 lies (you call them "truths"), no need to repeat them, but since you did, I will repeat my answers to them:

• Srebrenica massacre was a retaliation for war crimes commited by Bosniak army from Srebrenica against the Serb civilians in neighbouring villages. If you write about Srebrenica and not mention this, then your writting would be biased.
• War crimes were commited by all 3 sides in war and nobody here is innocent.
• Concentration camps were held by all 3 sides.
• Ethnic cleansing was performed by all 3 sides.
• Destruction of heritage was act of all 3 sides.
• Name of the RS is not disputed but officially recognized by the constitution of the RS and the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The fact that few nationalistic lunatics from SDA political party think that name of RS is disputed is not good reason to post this sentence into article.
• The existence of RS is also not disputed or illegal but officially recognized by the BIH constitution and by the Internatiopnal community. Also, it is not International Criminal Court that accused Serbia-Montenegro for aggression, but former Bosniak government (You lie here with purpose or what?). Also, Serbia and Montenegro did not commited agression against Bosnia, it was civil war between people of Bosnia, while Republika Srpska is a entitity of those people who live in it. PANONIAN 10:18, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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One more thing Dado, about the article: you said that the current article is simplistic. Well is it better to be simplistic or to be nationalistic POV? PANONIAN 14:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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Republika Srpska is not officially recognized by any country in the world except by Bosnia. Dayton Agreement that legalized such entity is signed by 3 men not by people of BOSNIAN NATION.

Republika Srpska is in Media and for Bosnians all over the world viewed as an insult to Bosnia and Herzegovina. Instead of punishing agressors for genocide and killings, these agressors were REWARDED by granting them "entity" in which all Bosnians, mostly muslims were ethnically cleansed totally and eliminated from Bosnian land.

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For anonimous user: There is no such thing as "Bosnian nation" or "Bosnians" and there never was. There are 3 nations in Bosnia: Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. Republika Srpska is officially recognized by all countries in the World as entity within Bosnia and Herzegovina. Dayton Agreement was signed to stop war, if you attacking Dayton you probably want new war, right? Republika Srpska cannot be insult for Bosnia and Herzegovina because it is one of two parts that make Bosnia and Herzegovina. There is no Bosnia and Herzegovina without Republika Srpska. And who might be agressor according to you? It was civil war between 3 nations of the country. There was no agressor from foreign country here. By the way, Serbs live in Bosnia for last 1,400 years and they were ethnic majority in Bosnia until 1971 when Bosniaks become a majoriry. You must know that Bosniaks are majority in that country only for about last 30 years. Have this in your mind if you talk about agressors. So, this entity (RS) was created for the native people who live in that land for last 1,400 years, and who were majority in that land for most of its history. And yes, Bosniaks were ethnically cleansed from Republika Srpska, but so were Serbs from Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Only in Sarajevo there were about 150,000 Serbs before the war. Where they are now? PANONIAN 10:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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Please do not add, change, delate, alter in any way my post or insert your own analyzes. If you have something to add, write your own post. -- 209.86.100.194 09:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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And what are you? A god? If you did not noticed this is a talk page, so if you post something here, you should expect that people argue with your posts, especially if that posts are so provocative and pathetic. So, I did not deleted your posts and you do not delete mine. If you delete my posts, I will return them back, and do not worry, I will return them every single time. So, deleting of my posts is not an option for you, believe me. PANONIAN 12:29, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Republika Srpska is located in the Bosnia and as such can not be refered as seperated "Country", neither as a "State" or some completely different "nation" but temporarily BOSNIAN entity.

Republika Srpska does not have full independency even today although this website and its content is the proof how hard they are trying. The world knows the truth so instead of makng them to change the facts, rather contribute to add the truth so their desperate posts look what they are: nonsense!

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LOL. What is the point of this post? Republika Srpska is part of Bosnia and Herzegovina (nobody dispute this), but it is also a state, because every republic is a state. And where did you get that Republika Srpska is a "temporarily BOSNIAN entity"? It is entity in Bosnia, and if you with the term "Bosnian" define all 3 peoples of Bosnia (including Serbs) then it is also Bosnian entity, but I hear first time from you that it is "temporarily entity". Republika Srpska will exist as long as people who live in it want that. For all we know, it could be as long as 1,000 years or more. And where you get that "this website and its content is the proof how hard they are trying to have full independency"? They just want to live in peace like all peoples of this World. And yes World know the truth, so mister "anonymous user", I do not see what you want to achieve with this since it is quite obvious that you are nlt so anonymous, but you are actually Dado or Emir or their friend, so stop these games. And I really do not know who is desperate here. Only desperate man could play a role of anonymous user, while we all know who he really is. PANONIAN 10:46, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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Republika Srpska is also not legally and officially recognized in any part of the world

except in Bosnia and Herzegovina only as the "entity" and not the state, not the independent country and not as some seperated Nation. You got to mention this fact!

Bosnians are extremely angry that Alija Izetbegovic signed such agreement with agressors of 2 remaining countries ( Croatia and Serbia )Tudjman and Mislosevic and Izetbegovic had no legal rights to chose the destiny of BOSNIANS on the account on their ethnic cleansing and genocide therefore this agreement is considered unconstitutional. For details why Bosnians believe it's unconstitutional go to: http://www.hdmagazine.com/bosnia/people/harisfax.html

== Bosnians from all over the world are legally pursuing these issues about Republika Srpska, and are trying to regain the Bosnian country to her Independency as declared by the whole world in 1992. Republic Srpska in the land of Bosnian people is obviously proof that Bosnia is still occupied country since it does NOT grant the rights to the very own people - Bosnians! == On Feb 27, 2005 officialy begins their Trial - "Bosnia VS Serbia" where the existance of Republika Srpska is hanging in the air. Serbs committed genocide in Bosnia in the 21 century - see genocide photos: http://www.genocid.org/slike.php

THE INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA - CASE NO. IT-95-5-I THE PROSECUTOR OF THE TRIBUNAL AGAINST RADOVAN KARADZIC and RATKO MLADIC http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/kar-ii950724e.htm

The above comments speak for themselves and require no further elaboration from me. It is for you to decide where to go from here, whether to accept the Dayton Agreement and Republika Srpska or reject it. Just don't forget to tell the facts that BOSNIA IS STILL OCCUPIED COUNTRY.

• • • Please do not add, change, delate, alter in any way my post or insert your own analyzes. If you have something to add, write your own post. --209.86.100.194 09:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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I will post my own analyzes here if I want (I will not change your post of course). This is the talk page and if you post something here, you should expect the answers from other people. I will only repeat some things: "Bosnians" do not exist, while Bosnia and Herzegovina is a state of 3 nations - Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats (that is what its constitution say). So, you and your friends from SDA political party do not legally pursuing these issues about Republika Srpska, since it is against the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina. As, for Bosnia and Herzegovina, it is already independent country, so I do not see how you can "regain the Bosnian country to her Independency" (Ridiculous). Republika Srpska is a land of Bosnian people (including Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats) who live in it, and yes Bosnia is still occupied country by the international millitary (EUROFOR), but your SDA liders are guilty for that, dont you agree? The existence of the Republika Srpska do not hanging in the air, while Serbs did not commited genocide against anybody (only Serb, Bosniak and Croat leaders commited genocide against peace and against all 3 nations of Bosnia, including their own). O yes, and was it in the 20th century, not 21st? As for Ratko Mladić and Radovan Karadžić, they are of those leaders about whom I said that they commited genocide against peace and against all 3 peoples of Bosnia, including their own, of course. Fact is that ethnic Serbs from Bosnia have nothing with Mladić and Karadžić. As I said, every crime have a name and a surname, and names and surnames are mentioned here. So, charge the people who are guilty for what they done, but leave the Serbian people alone. And why would somebody reject the Dayton Agreement? To make new war in Bosnia or what? PANONIAN 13:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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Serb nationalism

I just wanna say that the Serb hard-core nationalism is destroying this project. I ask administrators to stop this. You shouldn't tolerate this anymore. You just have to look to the ICTY and to see who is there, all presidents and leaders of RS, Radovan Kardzic (the first president of RS hiding in the woods of Serbia or Montenegro), Biljana Plavsic (she pleaded guilty for War Crimes), Nikola Poplasen (removed by the international community because of oppstructions and fascism), Momcilo Krajisnik (awaiting a trial for War Crimes in ICTY), Mirko Sarovic (also removed by international community) and so on...So dont behave like the vandals and fascists as PANONIAN and User:Nikola do. ---Wayat Earp

Very good point! All Serb political leaders are either War Criminals or hiding from the law or removed by the International Community. Emir Arven 14:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Most of what you wrote is false. Karadzic is believed to be hiding in the woods of Herzegovina; Plavsic has not pleaded guilty, but claimed guilt as a part of her plea bargain, and later she admitted to have lied; Poplasen and Krajisnik were not removed by international community but by a single person, put to its political position by a few Western countries etc. Nikola 10:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Karadzic is the most wanted War Criminal in Europe. It is irrelevant where he is hiding.

Plavsic pleaded guilty to a single charge of crimes against humanity and expressed "full remorse" in exchange for prosecutors dropping seven other war crimes charges, including two counts of genocide. Plavsic's statement repeated her admission of guilt. It said she had refused to believe stories of atrocities against Bosniaks and Croatians and accepted without question the claims that Serbs were fighting for survival. "I have now ... accepted that many thousands of innocent people were the victims of organized, systematic efforts from the territory claimed by Serbs...The knowledge that I'm responsible for such human suffering and for soiling the character of my people will always be with me."You can read his case here. Momcilo Krajisnik was arrested not removed by the International Community. He is on trial now accused for genocide in Bosnia. [6] Nikola Poplasen is a Serba nationalist who was removed by OHR (international community) because of his racism. The same case is with Mirko Sarovic. So it must be mentioned that all presidentds of RS are either War Criminals or just the nationalists romved by the International Community. Emir Arven 14:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

You call me a "vandal" and a "fascist"?! LOL. Can you explain why? Did I deleted your posts from the talk page? No, I did not, but you deleted mine. So, who is a vandal here? Also, did I spreed a "fascist" speech of hate here, or you? Think about this. Also, what I said here what can be described as "nationalistic"? Can you elaborate? And you accusing me that I am destroying this project because I want to clean the Republika Srpska article from the Bosniak nationalistic POV and to make it neutral? And dont be surprised if administrators stop you, especially when they see that you deleted my posts from the talk page:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Republika_Srpska&action=history

As for these former RS leaders, did I ever said that I support them? No, I did not, so do not put words into my mouth. I have bad opinion about them as much as you do, but what these leaders have to do with the Republika srpska or with the Serb people who live there? Of course, Bosniak and Croats war leaders were equally bad as Serb ones. PANONIAN 13:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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And please, do not sign your posts with the false name Wayat Earp. We both know that your true name is Dado or Emir or Mujo or Haso or what ever similar, but not Wayat Earp. PANONIAN 13:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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Bosniak nationalism

It is quite clear that those gentlemans above presented the views and the political goals of Bosniak nationalism. I think that this article should be protected for very long time and that only administrators of Wikipedia should add new things into this article. These things should be first discussed here on the talk page, and if we all (me, Dado and other users) agree to post something into article then this should be posted. But if anybody of us object to posting some things, then it should not be posted. I think this is a fair proposal. Opinions? PANONIAN 13:55, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

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Serb lies

I have removed Serb propaganda from the History of Republika Srpska, never proved by anyone:

On the territories controled by the Bosniak and Croat authorities during the war, numerous war crimes against ethnic Serb civilians were commited, including ethnic cleansing, killings, making them a forced labour and closing them into the concentration camps. One of the examples of war crimes commited against Serbs is ethnic clensing of Serbs in Sarajevo. During and after the war (when Dayton Agreement was signed), almost all Serbs were driven out of Sarajevo. (zl_lat/pdf_lat/ nestali%20sarajevo%20lat.pdf Preliminary list of missing Serbian persons from Sarajevo 1992-1995)

Give us here any courte decision at all, about allegedly "ethnic cleansig of Serbs in Sarajevo". Sarajevo was surrounded by Serb army for 1300 days (the longest siege in the history) which killed more than 12.000 people, including 1500 children. Among those killed people by Serb bombs and snipers were around 1000 Serb civilians which stayed in Sarajevo. Stanislav Galic, a Serb general which was a commander of the Sarajevo siege is condemnd by the ICTY for War Crimes against Sarajevo civilians. Here is the court decision: Serb War Criminals So give us something relevant because you are just saying your opinion. The list of allegedly missing Serbs has been already disputed and qualified as a propaganda, because there are people that are alive and many of them are not from Sarajevo and many of them were/are not Serbs and many of them were fighting for Bosnia. For instance Divna Crnogorac (Serb), a woman whose husband, Ratko Crnogorac was a soldier of Bosnian Army, said that her husband was killed by the Serb Army on the 13th of August in 1993. in Dobrinja. She said that Serb propaganda put the name of her husband on the list just to spread propagnada. She said her husbend was fighting for Bosnia not for Serbia. You can read this here [7] But Serbs nationalists lied about this, and they wrote that he was killed by Bosnians. This is just one example. There are 411 people that are not even from Sarajevo. So this is just your way to continue policy started by Slobodan Milosevic, and other Serb War Crminals that are now in the Hague. Emir Arven 14:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

You want the proof about ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Sarajevo? There were about 150,000 Serbs in Sarajevo before the war. Where they are now? PANONIAN 14:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

There were not 150.000 Serbs in Sarajevo. I am from Sarajevo, my friened is a Serb, my aunt is a Serb so dont lie. You asked me where the Serbs were. Some of them left Grbavica or Dobrinja (parts of Sarajevo) which were controlled by the Serb army when Grbavica became the part of Federation in 1995. according to Deyton agreement. They left because their president Momcilo Krajisnik, accused for War Crimes invited them to leave Sarajevo and move to so called Srpsko Sarajevo (Serbian Sarajevo) to build Serb paradise on the Earth. Emir Arven 15:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Also, what you want to say? That Bosniak leaders were angels and that they did not persecuted ethnic serbs? Please... All sides of the war were EQUALLY GUILTY for war, for ethnic cleansing and for the war crimes. PANONIAN 14:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

All sides are not equal quilty. ICTY accused 146 people for War Crimes in Bosnia and Croatia:

• 106 Serbs (72,6 %)
• 31 Croats (21,23%)
• 9 Bosniaks (6,16%)

• Serbs received 554 years prison sentence, until now. (76%)
• Croats received 142 years prison sentence, until now. (19,4%)
• Bosniaks received 33 years prison sentence, until now. (4,5%)

Just Serb political leadership was accused for War Crimes including genocide. Emir Arven 15:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

When I said sides, I speak about leaders, not about peoples. All 3 peoples of Bosnia were victims of the war. Also, I did not deleted a single word about crimes commited against the Bosniaks, so why you deleting this part about the crimes commited against the Serbs? PANONIAN 14:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

When you give us here a court decision which prove the crimes I will let it stay. Otherwise it is just propaganda. Emir Arven 15:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

It is not Serbian propaganda that Bosniak leaders were war criminals, it is a fact. Alija Izetbegović would be charged for the war crimes too, but he died before the court started a charge against him. PANONIAN 14:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Another lie. Serb government of RS in 1996. send accusation against Izetbegovic, but Louise Arbour as a chief prosecutor of ICTY said it was just Serb propaganda and drop it. In 2001. Serb governmant of RS made another accusation and send it to the ICTY, but for the three years there was not an answer. In the meanwhile Alija Izetbegovic died. Emir Arven 15:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

However, there is a number of Bosniaks who are charged for war crimes. So, since they are charged for war crimes, it is quite obvious that crimes against the Serbs did happen. Do you think that life of one ethnic Bosniak is more valuable than the life of one ethnic Serb? You have section named "Crimes against the Bosniaks" and you can write there what ever you want about these crimes, but do not delete the section "the crimes against the Serbs". PANONIAN 14:35, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• 106 Serbs (72,6 %)
• 31 Croats (21,23%)
• 9 Bosniaks (6,16%)

• Serbs received 554 years prison sentence, until now. (76%)
• Croats received 142 years prison sentence, until now. (19,4%)
• Bosniaks received 33 years prison sentence, until now. (4,5%)

Just Serb political leadership was accused for War Crimes including genocide. Emir Arven 15:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)