Talk:Endeavor Academy

This article was nominated for deletion on 2006-07-01. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when responding to comments on this talk page.

Please feel free to place any comments, suggestions or questions regarding Endeavor Academy here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottperry (talk • contribs)

Does this school meet WP:CORP or WP:BIO?? Ste4k 11:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the importance of this article, are there any headlines, or anything else of national recognition that show the dispute between this school and its student to be on the scale of perhaps Waco, or otherwise notorious? If not, then this page looks more like some sort of troll bait. I removed both the self-advertising link, as well as the unsourced anti-advertising link. This school may indeed exist, but it doesn't appear to be as notable as say, Columbine High School, or any other media breaking school. It doesn't appear to meet WP:ORG either. Ste4k 01:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't answer your questions, but it is standard to include a link to the official website of any subject, be it a person or institution. So far as I can see, there's no reason to adopt a different standard for this article. -Will Beback 01:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Whatever standard you are mentioning is news to me. It may be standard for people and/or organizations to add one without a sufficient review of policy, but that doesn't change policy at all. What could be the purpose for such a link, especially since anything on pages there couldn't be used for any content? Ste4k 01:25, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:EL#What should be linked to, see item #1. The purpose is so that readers wishing to learn more have an authoritative link. It's not true that we can't use a subject for a source. They have just as much significance as a source as any other. We don't exclude autobiographies as sources, we just recognize that they are another POV. -Will Beback 08:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I see that now in the Style Guide, however, according to the WP:SPAM guidelines: Please do not add commercial links or links to your own private websites to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. You are, however, encouraged to add content instead of links to the encyclopedia. If you feel the link should be added to the article please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thanks. Ste4k 17:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Adding a link to the official website is not "spamming" Wikipedia. -Will Beback 18:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

According to WP:VER primary sources cannot be used, except for information about themselves, and also only if the information pertains to the subject's notability. Ste4k 01:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

possible copyright violation of Chuck-anderson's-ea-bldg.jpg

User:Ste4k has listed Chuck-anderson's-ea-bldg.jpg as a possible copyright violation. Reasons unknown. —Antireconciler 03:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if you go to the listed source of the image, you will find nothing there at all except a test page. Images need to list their source as well as rationale for why they may be used as fair-use, etc. See WP:CV Ste4k 01:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Relevence

About the two external links on this page. What is the relevence? Ste4k 01:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Original Research

Does this article have any sources? Ste4k 01:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it has: zero + however many are in it, and will be added in response to your request for citations. :) Sethie 03:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge Proposal

copied from Talk:Charles Buell Anderson

I was looking over the final results of this article's AfD, and I didn't see anyone that explicitly had a problem with merging this into Endeavor Academy. I don't think it would be hard to put together a short, well-referenced article at Endeavor Academy that included all of the verifiable info here. I'll leave this open for discussion for a while, but if no one objects I'm going to be bold and merge it myself. --Nscheffey^(T/C) 08:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Be bold. The objection took the form of those who specifically voted to delete after a merge had been proposed. I haven't any objection to a merge at all. I do, on the other hand, have an objection to extremely thick conversations over umpteen individual issues that get bogged down into long talk pages which are difficult to traverse and lead toward a standstill rather than any consensus. If you think that we can discuss the newly merged article with that in mind, I would certainly appreciate it. Thanks. Ste4k 11:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Antireconciler 20:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

nice job. Ste4k 04:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article needs to be factually verified, cleaned up in general after the recent merge. Ste4k 04:08, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Original Research #2

Will, I'm reverting your insertion because it is unsourced. A + B does not equal C. There isn't any mention of anyone at the Endeavor Website named Anderson. "Master Teacher", yes. Anderson? no. By the way, there isn't anything on that site, nor in the articles about anyone writing a book. Ste4k 07:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

There are numerous references to the fact that the head of the Endeavor Academy is called the "master teacher", and many references to Anderson as the master teacher. If it isn't him, then who do you think runs the place? -Will Beback 17:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, A + B does not equal C. It is not up to me to think who runs the place. That is original research. Comparing two different sources for making that assumption is synthesis. About your recent addition, using the source "Sects on the beach". Do you have that resource handy? I do. Here is what is added to the article: "advertises branch centers in Germany, Spain and Columbia. A former residential community in Byron Bay, Australia, however, has closed after facing many legal and financial difficulties." and cited to "Sects on the beach". There isn't any of the words "advertise" or "advertises" anywhere in that article, not even the prefix "adver". There isn't any mention of either Germany, Spain, nor Columbia in that article either. So that leaves us with: "A former residential community in Byron Bay, Australia, however, has closed after facing many legal and financial difficulties." The only mention of any "residence" pertains only to Byron Bay, Austrailia, and here is the quote:

"Business at the Miracle Centre would seem to be booming. 
The church is exercising its option to buy the adjoining Epicentre complex, a 
Byron landmark, and has a development application lodged with the local council 
for a 40-room motel for the site. If approved, Poppe 
intends handing the project over to a developer and using the proceeds to 
dramatically improve the church and its facilities. His 
devoted supporters insist much good has been accomplished under him, so much so 
that a number of acolytes have moved into the compound behind the church or 
taken up residence in nearby units on the Belongil Spit."

... also notice that there isn't any mention of Anderson there. None of the information in the predicate of that statement can be included citing the resource "Sects on the beach". Ste4k 20:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's break this down. Do you deny that the leader of the Endeavor Academy is the "master teacher"? -Will Beback 20:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It is not up to me to deny anything. It is up to whomever includes the information to supply a reliable resource. Per WP:VER, "2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it." As an administrator, I am surprised to see that you aren't familiar with that. Ste4k 20:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Second, if Anderson is not connected to the academy then why did we merge his biography? -Will Beback 20:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I did not propose a merge, I proposed a delete. The merge was proposed by three other people in the AfD. All of those people were contacted in regard to the matter being a "disputed merge" or not. Another editor suggested being bold. I agreed that I hadn't any contest with that idea, and a third editor performed the merge. You might contact them individually in that regard. Ste4k 20:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

If Anderson is not connected to the Endeavor Academy then we should undo the merge. It's senseless to have a biography of an unconnected individual in this article. -Will Beback 20:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

PS: Adding merge tags to an article is tantamount to proposing a merge.[1][2]. Also, you wrote that you didn't object to a merge, and told another editor to go ahead and do it.[3] I don't understand why an editor would endorse a merge, then delete the material once it was merged on the basis that a merge shouldn't have occurred. -Will Beback 21:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

As mentioned, you should speak to those that proposed the merge. Applying merge tags to correctly without bias express the wishes of three other editors made in an AfD is a matter of simple maintenance. Should their viewpoints have been ignored?

1. Merge bio (with much trimming) to the school article --KillerChihuahua?!? 11:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Strong Keep or Strong Merge to Endeavor Academy. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Strong Merge with Endeavor Academy. --Nscheffey(T/C) 00:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
4. my comments
5. the merge

Ste4k 01:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm having a really hard time assuming good faith from Ste4k at this point. We already had this conversation on the Talk:Charles Buell Anderson page. She was referred to the 48 hours hours article, which identifies Charles Anderson as the leader of Endeavor Academy and the Master Teacher. That she continues to debate this is borderline psychotic. --Nscheffey^(T/C) 20:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me provide a brief recap as I understand it. Some time ago, Ste4k proposes deletion of Endeavor Academy and Charles Buell Anderson. Since it turns out that most information at Charles Buell Anderson is redundant with Endeavor Academy, I copy any information at Charles Buell Anderson that isn't at Endeavor Academy, and I vote to delete Charles Buell Anderson and keep Endeavor Academy. The articles are essentially merged at this point. After the nomination concludes no consensus, Nsheffey recommends merging the articles, and this involves me moving only a references tag from Charles Buell Anderson and then converting it to a redirect page. Now Ste4k wants to remove information relating to Charles Buell Anderson, quoting WP policy to back it up. This essentially deletes Charles Buell Anderson per her previous nomination. It's not that Ste4k contests the merge. Actually, she embraces it because now she can WP:Verify Charles Buell Anderson out of existence. Now we should wonder if she will use this same tactic to reduce Endeavor Academy to another article, perhaps A Course in Miracles. There is no reason for her to find offense in what I say. If she resorts to finding offense, it can be yet one more tactic. Everyone should be forewarned of this. Do not let your minds me numbed by buying into WP policy without thinking critically, or by buying into accusations against you as if they had any meaning. —Antireconciler 04:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Ste4k asked me to come here and provide some comments on sourcing. I've read the discussion on this talk page and I think the problem is that policy is not being applied with common sense, a common trap for new users. Is there any real doubt in anybody's mind that Anderson is the Master Teacher and is the leader of this Academy? Get off this topic (which seems to take up most of the talk page, even though it is the easiest thing to verify in the whole article) and source the rest of the article. Ste4k's AfD noms (which were the first time I ever heard of ACIM) helped WP by cleaning out a walled garden of preachy, POV articles, but now it is time to stop being so adversarial and work together on improving the articles that were kept. JChap (Talk) 04:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Leadership

About this section and its references:

Endeavor Academy is headed by its primary teacher and founder, Charles Buell Anderson. He is referred to by his students as "Master Teacher," and writes and publishes books under this name.

• Endeavor Academy. "Meet The Master Teacher". Retrieved 2006-07-15.
• FACTNet. "A comparison of FACTNet's criteria with Endeavor Academy". Retrieved 2006-07-15.

There isn't any mention of either authoring or books in either of these sources. The first source (primary) mentions nothing about students referring to anyone. In itself, its claims are very POV, a little far fetched, i.e. as reliable resources coming from a primary source speaking about itself, they are both contentious and self-serving or self-aggrandizing. There is no mention whatsover in the first reference of anyone named "Anderson", nor is there any mention that "Master Teacher" founded and/or heads the Academy. For all we know, it could be run by a board of directors and sell private shares of stock. The second source never mentions anyone named Anderson either. The most it says directly is: "Master Teacher is the supreme authority, nobody in the cult can question his apparently divine wisdom." It also says, "Not only does the Master Teacher claim he is Jesus but he require constant attention to be focused on him." The statement is as far-fetched as the other statement is self-aggrandizing. I doubt that anything in this reference meets WP:LIBEL, or WP:NPOV, but if you want to add it back in, then according to the guidelines you should be very careful to quote the source, exactly, to avoid having WP be considered a primary source of its own, and you yourself take full liability in the case that you do not quote it directly. See Wikipedia:No libel "Avoid paraphrases or inexact quotes or relying on memory when making contentious observations or assertions - and be ready to provide sources or withdraw comments if challenged" Ste4k 20:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. 1) Why have we merged in the Anderson biography? 2) Is there any doubt that the Master Teacher is the head of the Endeavor Academy 3) Is the identity of the Master Teacher in question? 4) Do we doubt that books are written by the Master Teacher? Regarding your questions, we may certainly use the Endeavor website as a source for their leader. If this were a university we would use the official website for a source for their staff. -Will Beback 20:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Answers: 1) Please see above conversation in "Original Research". 2) Yes. 3) Evidently so. 4) I do, and haven't found any evidence in that regard even after reading all of the proceedings of the court trial records which never mention any Anderson at all. (I consider those court records very NPOV and reliable). 5) The source is not in question. The material provided by the source must align itself with the guidelines. Please see those at WP:RS#Self-published_sources_in_articles_about_themselves as previously mentioned. Ste4k 20:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

2) What source provides informaiton to contradict the sources that portray the Master Teacher as the head and founder of the Academny? 3) We have sources which say that Anderson is the Master Teacher, and none that say he isn't. 4) Amazon.com lists books by the Master Teacher. If the Master Teacher didn't write them, then who has? 5) I don't see anything in the guideline which prevents us from using the Academy website as a source for its staff. -Will Beback 21:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

FYI, here is a source which clearly ties together Endeavor Academy, Anderson, Master Teacher, and and calls him the "founder".[4]

As does this source, with which we're already familiar.[5]

Removing NPOV information which has already been verified is not helpful.-Will Beback 20:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest including the sources before citing them to avoid confusion. Also those sources are both the same source, i.e. "rickross.com" and it has already been established that it is not NPOV. Rick Ross makes a living off of modern day witch hunting. Ste4k 20:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't recall a consensus that Rick Ross is not trsutworthy on the identity of the Master Teacher. Where, exactly, did we decide that? The second reference is to CBS, as we all know. -Will Beback 21:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

You might want to consider the article about him here on WP and the sources of which show his criminal past as well as his site being listed as a hate group. Other actual authorities in the field also contest his self-made credentials. As discussed many days ago, he owns his own web site, the site is not syndicated anywhere, and it does not meet the standards of a reliable resource. It is neither a publishing organization, nor the press, nor anything else that fits the criteria listed in WP:RS. His viewpoints on Endeavor Academy are biased by profit potential and that is not the only church that he has comments on. A strong case could easily be made that besides financial gain that his motives are religious persecution. In any case, as you know, if this is a disputed matter between us, then I suggest that we consult a third neutral party. This organization doesn't actually meet WP:ORG in the first place, so true, it may be difficult to find sources, however, as mentioned, we should keep WP:LIBEL, WP:NPOV and Wikipedia:No libel as guidelines and policy regarding the editing of this article. Ste4k 01:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The second resource is from CBS. CBS does not state this opinion. CBS reported that some other man (Rick Ross) had this opinion as well as Ian Hamilton who is a disgruntled business partner of Endeavor Academy. All POV and wreckless inclusion should be avoided. Ste4k 01:17, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

CBS and other major news centers have relied on Ross as an expert.

CBS, in their own words, says:

• They say that it is a kind of a health spa for the soul, with its own spiritual guide: a former real estate salesman named Chuck Anderson...The Howards - and roughly 500 others at the Academy - have sacrificed their careers and their former lives behind to live there and follow Anderson, the man they know as Master Teacher...Clare Howard first heard the Academy's teachings at a 1991 seminar based on the New Age doctrine called "A Course in Miracles." ...At the Endeavor Academy, almost all decisions are made by Anderson.[6]

That is eminently clear. -Will Beback 02:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Great! Then include that into the article verbatim and cite it. That is not what is in there now. Ste4k 02:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

This statement: "Endeavor Academy is headed by its primary teacher and founder, Charles Buell Anderson. " is cited to be using the 48 hours article as a source. Why? There isn't anything about any "Charles or Buell" in that article. There isn't anything about any "founder" in that article either. That article doesn't even say that Chuck Anderson is the "primary" teacher. A-he is called "Master Teacher. does not equal B-he is the primary teacher. It does say that that he is a "spiritual guide". Sounds like he works there, certainly, but not much more. That needs to be either removed as OR or correctly cited to whatever it came from. Ste4k 02:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's another presumably neutral source: [7] -Will Beback 02:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure we can reword the statements in these sources more clearly than the current text. I'll give it a shot. -Will Beback 02:58, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

This made me laugh: "Anderson is a former realtor and member of the Alcoholics Anonymous [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]". It reads like he is still in AA, Will. I'm sure you can do better than that. With five sources just pick the best, quote it, and cite it. It seems like we're spending a lot of time on this instead of trying to find sources for the real problem with the article: WP:ORG. Ste4k 04:40, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The source, a speech of his own, doesn't explictly mention leaving AA. However he does say, "My name is Chuck Anderson, and I’m an alcoholic.", , so we can state that much. -Will Beback 04:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

You've got me rolling on the floor now. lol. Honestly, Will, are you trying to make sure that this article gets deleted? The topic here is the Academy and the problem is notability. Ste4k 04:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Leaning further away from the problem

Article right now says: In an interview with CBS News Anderson denies having followers, claims to be "returning to heaven" "shortly", and says that "everybody" is going with him. He says "There's nothing dangerous about me. I am the danger of eternal love."[9]

This source is seven years old now. If these are the only two references we can dig up in the press then it shows more of a reason why this organization and/or the source and/or Anderson is not notable. If they haven't been mentioned in over five years, and (ste4k checks herself real quick), yes, I am still here and not in heaven, then what's the point of adding this material to the article? Seems to be off-topic and or steering away from notability of the organization rather than the contrary. Ste4k 04:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)