Talk:Uncommon Dissent

Comment: I see that User:Arthur Rubin has proposed this article for deletion. However, not only the editor of the book, but virtually every one of its contributors, meets Wikipedia's standards for notability. Hence, the book is notable, and not just "marginally" as Rubin claims. I also see a (probably intentionally disparaging) remark to the effect that none of the contributors to this anthology is an evolutionary biologist; that makes no difference whatsoever, since the book addresses the validity of a theory which evolutionary biologists merely take for granted, and the occupations of the contributors all arguably relate to that level of discourse (with the exception of the contributor whose occupation is not listed). According to the applicable standard, the book certainly belongs in Wikipedia. Asmodeus 19:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I looked at this as a Wikipedia:walled garden, but the I'm afraid the book does meet WP:BK. My mistake. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Attention JBKramer: please discuss your objections here rather than using the edit summary to falsely accuse other editors of "editing disruptively to make a point". The subject of the book is not simple biology, but the overall theoretical integrity of Darwinism. Modern biologists merely apply Darwinism while taking its validity almost completely for granted; in order to neutrally critique the theory - NPOV, remember? - a higher level of discourse is required. Biologists typically don't function on that level, and therefore would not be expected to write a book like this one. I'm therefore asking you to either stop invoking this red herring in order to paint the contributors in a bad light, which is obviously what you're trying to do, or allow for some balance. (Also, please stop following me around and specializing in my edits.) Asmodeus 00:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

On this point, I strongly disagree, in regard the actual content of the article. If (as you suggest above) the authors' occupations are relevant, the fact that none is a biolgist is also relevant, given the subject is (generally considered to be) biology. The current sentence, "Although at least three of the contributors work in biology-related fields, none is a professional biologist." seems a reasonable compromise. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll go along with the present wording, although it still seems to me that "none is a biologist" has an inappropriately judgmental tone (given that professional biologists would be among the last people to write such a book, Darwinism being a canon of their discipline). However, I stand firm on my comments regarding JBKramer's misuse of the edit summary. Answering your request to improve the article hardly qualifies as "editing disruptively to make a point".

FeloniousMonk: You have insisted on presenting Uncommon Dissent as a "fulfillment" of the "Wedge Strategy" of the Discovery Institute, which implies a causal connection between the DI and the existence of the book. Yet, the DI per se did not write or publish the book. Accordingly, I requested citations substantiating your speculation (as opposed, for example, to ad hominem reliance on one of the editor's personal affiliations). Can you provide the requested citations? If you can, please do so immediately. Asmodeus 17:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Does fulfillment inherently imply a causative relationship? Let us, playing in court of the Abrahamic religion tradition espoused by the IDists, assume that the prophecy of a Messiah was causative in the death of Jesus. Would we be correct in so assuming? •Jim62sch• 00:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree with you on this point. Although the comments FeloniousMonk made make it morally certain that it is part of DI's "Wedge Strategy", it is WP:OR to state it in Wikipedia. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, you really need to find a new introductory phrase, because that one ain't worth much. •Jim62sch• 00:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk's observation that William Dembski is a senior fellow of the DI merely suggests that some people in the DI might see the book as "a fulfillment of the wedge strategy". As you observe, that's not good enough to satisfy NOR or NPOV. Happy Thanksgiving. Asmodeus 19:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Noting the book's relation to the Wedge Strategy

We seem to have a basic misunderstanding here, FeloniousMonk. [1],[2],[3] are short book reviews which do not mention the wedge strategy, establish a causal relationship between the wedge strategy and Uncommon Dissent, or even establish that the DI, as an organization, had anything to do with the book's publication. The kind of citation minimally required to support this speculation would be, for example, a verifiable statement along the lines of "I wrote/edited this book on a grant from the DI in fulfillment of stage n of the wedge strategy." Do you have one or more citations of this nature? If not, then your speculation is rooted in your own POV and should be removed. Asmodeus 17:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

As you and I already know the sort of cites you seek do not exist because the Discovery Institute denies it follows the Wedge strategy. Luckily the Dover ruling found the institute to be doing just that, so that much is settled.

Just because the Discovery Institute is playing that game does not mean we have to as well, and since they try to publicly distance themselves from their own strategy, denying us a primary source, the most the article can present is to note the book and the DI's cited hyping of it are consistent with the Wedge, which the article now does. Once secondary sources are provided, their observation of the book's role in the Wedge Strategy will be added as attributed, sourced opinion. FeloniousMonk 17:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that the DI is widely associated with the wedge strategy, I don't think you've established the relevance of this association to the book, or for that matter, the validity of ID critic Barbara Forrest's speculative thesis that "DI fellow Nancy R. Pearcey's writings in Uncommon Dissent [are] evidence of the religious foundations of the institute's Wedge strategy and of intelligent design." Nancy R. Pearcey is one of fifteen (15) contributors to UCD, and allegedly religious comments from 1/15 of the contributors is not a basis for categorizing the book or its purpose. Since Barbara Forrest is not a contributor, her personal opinion regarding the particular essay submitted by 1/15 of the contributors hardly fills the gap. Thus, you need to show why it belongs in the article. Can you do that? Asmodeus 19:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Although I, personally believe, that FM and SA are correct that this book is part of the wedge strategy, we need an independent, reliable source stating that. One reliable source stating that the book is A, B, and C, and another one stating that A, B, and C are examples of the wedge strategy, is not adequate under WP:OR. I think the present revision may qualify, although it might need to go into that particular author's article, instead of this article. (In other words, Asodeus, if you delete it from here without inserting it into that author's article, I would consider it intentional POV pushing, and request appropriate action.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Johnson in Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds wrote: "If we understand our own times, we will know that we should affirm the reality of God by challenging the domination of materialism and naturalism in the world of the mind. With the assistance of many friends I have developed a strategy for doing this,...We call our strategy the "wedge." (pg. 91-92) A pro-ID book like Uncommon Dissent, put out by the founders of the Wedge, Johnson, Dembski, Behe, Pearcey, Denton, making all their same oft-repeated arguments will be another brick in the Wedge's pro-ID ediface by necessity.

The article as it stands now presents the viewpoint (which is notable) attributed to Barbara Forrest, who herself is notable for her writings on ID and her participation in the Dover trial where it was ruled ID is creationism, not science. Her citing of the book in her expert testimony [1] is perforce notable in relation to this topic, and as such it belongs here, not buried at her article.

To the long-term contributors to the ID articles there's am all-too-familiar pattern here emerging -- content that represents the scientific community's viewpoint is constantly being removed, first as being uncited, then when cites and attribution is provided it's claimed it is not relevent to the topic. This constitutes a pattern of POV bowdlerizing, and will not fly.

Also, any contributors here who have a personal stake in this topic are requested to comply with WP:COI and WP:AUTO and limit their participation to the article's talk page. FeloniousMonk 23:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The POV of the scientific community regarding evolution is one thing; the POV of well-known ID critic Barbara Forrest regarding the raison d'etre of the DI is quite another, as is establishing the relevance of that opinion to this particular book. Regarding COI, it applies to you as much as to anyone else. WP:COI exists solely for the sake of NPOV. To edit neutrally is to adhere to the letter of WP:COI; to edit from POV is to demonstrate COI in the form of an inordinate psychological investment in the topic. That's all we need in this particular case. Asmodeus 15:56, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Forrest is recogized by the courts as one of the foremost, if not the foremost, expert on ID, period. That's why she was an expert witness in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, and the ruling there that ID is religon not science affirmed her testimony while dismissing that of the ID expert witnesses. The Dover ruling specifically said of Forrest:

"Dr. Barbara Forrest, one of Plaintiffs’ expert witnesses, is the author of the book Creationism’s Trojan Horse. She has thoroughly and exhaustively chronicled the history of ID in her book and other writings for her testimony in this case. Her testimony, and the exhibits which were admitted with it, provide a wealth of statements by ID leaders that reveal ID’s religious, philosophical, and cultural content." [2] --Judge Jones, Kitzmiller v. Dover

I understand your need to continue to seek to remove these facts from this article, but they are now presented as a properly sourced attribution to a notable viewpoint. Anyone who argues that Forrest is not notable or relevent to this book and this article would have to explain away the evidence that she was found more than notable enough by Judge Jones for the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial [3], and that her expert witness report made explicit the connections between those who call themselves the Wedge, 6 of the 15 authors, and this book.[4] FeloniousMonk 17:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Unexplained revert

My recent edit, which cited the book's characterization of Darwinism, requested citation for a claim, corrected the figure of thirteen contributors to fifteen, and added relevant external links, was reverted without explanation. Please explain reverts, and do not revert uncontroversial changes, like the fix to the number of contributors. Since the revert was wholesale, I don't know which changes are actually controversial, and which were reversed blindly. Please give feedback so we can work together. Tim Smith 19:57, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

What they are criticising is evolutionary biology, not Darwinism. There is a difference, [5]. Paul A. Newman 12:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

What they are criticizing is something they call "Darwinism"; the book's title is Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing. "Darwinism" is an ambiguous term: according to our article, it can refer to evolution by natural selection, or to evolution more broadly, or to other ideas not directly associated with the work of Darwin. We therefore need to say what the book means by "Darwinism". Accordingly, I cited its introduction, which characterizes Darwinism by the central claim that "an unguided physical process can account for the emergence of all biological complexity and diversity." It might help to explain in the article that the term is ambiguous. Tim Smith 00:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I tried a direct quote from the first sentence of our article on Darwinism, explaining that it is "a term for the underlying theory in those ideas of Charles Darwin concerning evolution and natural selection", but it was removed and replaced with the claim that the book's contributors use "Darwinism" to refer to the theory of evolution. In fact, the introduction does not use "Darwinism" to mean evolution generally, but what Dembski calls "Darwinian evolution", and characterizes by the central claim I quoted in my post above. Furthermore, because the term "Darwinism" is ambiguous, the fifteen contributors might not all use it in the same sense. I therefore recommend restoring the quote from Darwinism, which covers multiple senses of the term. Tim Smith 05:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)