Talk:Florence Ivy Mary Holmes

congratulations and further development

Hi SVPetersham,

Congratulations on the excellent research and fine article on Ivy Holmes! I've made many contributions to the Grey Owl article in recent months and have learned some interesting things from your article. For example, it's complete news to me that she was born in Chicago!

I can see a number of things that would contribute to the further development of the article. I'd be happy if you remained the major contributor or I could make some changes after checking with you. Dsiedler (talk) 15:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi SVPetersham,

Could you just let me know if you want to collaborate? Now that I've done some investigation I'd like to finish before I move on to something else.

To my mind, the most pressing issue is her birth place. Without corroboration, I don't think we should let the claim of birth in Chicago stand. I would propose moving that claim into a note. Her birth place isn't a crucial part of the story. Why bother going out on a limb? Dsiedler (talk) 08:11, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I have always been interested in Grey Owl as an early conservationist. He does seem to have treated the women in his life very badly. So I wondered what happened to his British wife and was especially interested in her career as a dancer. I failed to find any newspaper or magazine articles about Ivy Holmes as a dancer or touring Europe.

Thats it really. I was just curious. SVPetersham (talk) 15:55, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

corroboration of identity of Florence Ivy Holmes and Florence Ivy Mary Holmes?

Is there any source that supports the identity of the person documented in the Chicago birth certificate, under the name "Florence Ivy Holmes" and the person that Grey Owl married under the name "Florence Ivy Mary Holmes"?

This is a remarkable coincidence of names, but might be misleading. Smith uniformly refers to the person that Grey Owl married as "Ivy Holmes", except once when he cites the marriage registration, where he gives her full name as "Florence Ivy Mary Holmes". Dickson gives her name as "Constance Holmes" in Half-breed and as "Connie Holmes" and "Constance Ivy Homes" in Wilderness Man. All this about names is to show that it might be dangerous to rely completely on a coincidence of similar names.

Smith interviewed her four times and documented her past as a dancer. It is plausible that a birth in the U.S. (which gave her U.S. citizenship even if she didn't exercise it) might have been remarkable enough to have been mentioned. A simple statement by Smith - e.g. "Ivy's parents immigrated to the U.S. where she was born. At the age of two she returned to England with her mother after the untimely death of her father." - would have settled matters. The discovery of a birth record would be icing on the cake. The lack of such a statement of course doesn't disprove the identity, but the lack of support from the most reliable source about Grey Owl's life should give us pause.

Looking into the source for the birth certificate, I found a related birth registration record for one "Florence I Holmes". The parents' names in the birth registration are listed as "John R. Holmes" and "Florence A. J. Abraham", remarkably similar to the parents' names given in the birth certificate record - "John Robert Holmes" and "Florence Amelia Jane Abraham Holmes". So now we have another coincidence of names! (Note that in her marriage certificate the name of the father is given differently, as "Robert John Holmes".)

But this coincidence points to a different person from the one Grey Owl married, since "Florence I Holmes" appears in a 1950 census as living in Chicago. Could it be that this is the Florence Ivy Holmes who was born in Chicago in 1891 and was still living there - not in England - in 1950?

Dsiedler (talk) 16:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The 1921 Census gives Florence Ivy Mary Holmes birth as Chicago USA, described as being resident and "British Born" i.e. with British parents. She was a visitor staying with Annie Cash (widow) and John Kingston Edward Cash whom she married later.

The 1939 Register gives Florence I M Cash as born 11 April 1891. AndyScott (talk) 12:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

That's good corroboration. Can you provide a citation? I can find the records you refer to at www.findmypast.co.uk, but I can't get anything citeable without buying something.

What do you make of the following records?

1) Florence I Holmes: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6X1N-BK84

2) Florence I. Holmes: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7MK-1LG

Would you say (1) is simply a different person born around the same time as (2) and (2) is the Ivy Holmes that married Belaney? Dsiedler (talk) 15:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I could send you photos of the 1921 Census and 1939 Register. I had not found her in birth records in England nor the marriage of her parents but the 1921 Census cleared that up by her being born in USA. I can find her mother born Oct-Dec 1864 in Stepney. There is a marriage of a Mary Abraham to a John Ansley Holmes in Stepney in Jan-Mar 1889. There are too many John Robert Holmes to find his birth. I assume that he must have died in USA. I can't find a connection to Rev John Backhouse Holmes either, just a coincidence in names?

I think that is all that I can find out about Ivy. SVPetersham (talk) 16:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)