Talk:Florence Ivy Mary Holmes

congratulations and further development

Hi SVPetersham,

Congratulations on the excellent research and fine article on Ivy Holmes! I've made many contributions to the Grey Owl article in recent months and have learned some interesting things from your article. For example, it's complete news to me that she was born in Chicago!

I can see a number of things that would contribute to the further development of the article. I'd be happy if you remained the major contributor or I could make some changes after checking with you. Dsiedler (talk) 15:03, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi SVPetersham,

Could you just let me know if you want to collaborate? Now that I've done some investigation I'd like to finish before I move on to something else.

To my mind, the most pressing issue is her birth place. Without corroboration, I don't think we should let the claim of birth in Chicago stand. I would propose moving that claim into a note. Her birth place isn't a crucial part of the story. Why bother going out on a limb? Dsiedler (talk) 08:11, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I have always been interested in Grey Owl as an early conservationist. He does seem to have treated the women in his life very badly. So I wondered what happened to his British wife and was especially interested in her career as a dancer. I failed to find any newspaper or magazine articles about Ivy Holmes as a dancer or touring Europe.

Thats it really. I was just curious. SVPetersham (talk) 15:55, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Smith can supply some details about her career:

"Ivy, then twenty-six, was a very attractive, interesting woman.

She had travelled to many exotic foreign countries and learned firsthand

about different cultures. As a young girl she studied ballet in London. With her

mother’s encouragement the talented girl became a professional dancer.

Ivy was escorted by Florence Holmes on her first tour abroad with an English

dance and acting troupe. The company danced and in English imitated

famous British actors. Over a period of six years they travelled to Belgium,

the Austro-Hungarian Empire, present-day Poland, Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria,

and finally, Turkey. The tour ended in 1912 after a run of three months

in Constantinople. With the outbreak of the Balkan War in 1912, Ivy, her

mother, and the troupe had to return home." [p.61]

WWI put an end to that. And then Archie came along. What I didn't notice till I did the math was that in 1906, when she began to tour, she was only 15!

He certainly had his problems with marital responsiblity, but if he had just been a nice guy he wouldn't have become Grey Owl and an early conservationist. ;) Dsiedler (talk) 19:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

corroboration of identity of Florence Ivy Holmes and Florence Ivy Mary Holmes?

Is there any source that supports the identity of the person documented in the Chicago birth certificate, under the name "Florence Ivy Holmes" and the person that Grey Owl married under the name "Florence Ivy Mary Holmes"?

This is a remarkable coincidence of names, but might be misleading. Smith uniformly refers to the person that Grey Owl married as "Ivy Holmes", except once when he cites the marriage registration, where he gives her full name as "Florence Ivy Mary Holmes". Dickson gives her name as "Constance Holmes" in Half-breed and as "Connie Holmes" and "Constance Ivy Homes" in Wilderness Man. All this about names is to show that it might be dangerous to rely completely on a coincidence of similar names.

Smith interviewed her four times and documented her past as a dancer. It is plausible that a birth in the U.S. (which gave her U.S. citizenship even if she didn't exercise it) might have been remarkable enough to have been mentioned. A simple statement by Smith - e.g. "Ivy's parents immigrated to the U.S. where she was born. At the age of two she returned to England with her mother after the untimely death of her father." - would have settled matters. The discovery of a birth record would be icing on the cake. The lack of such a statement of course doesn't disprove the identity, but the lack of support from the most reliable source about Grey Owl's life should give us pause.

Looking into the source for the birth certificate, I found a related birth registration record for one "Florence I Holmes". The parents' names in the birth registration are listed as "John R. Holmes" and "Florence A. J. Abraham", remarkably similar to the parents' names given in the birth certificate record - "John Robert Holmes" and "Florence Amelia Jane Abraham Holmes". So now we have another coincidence of names! (Note that in her marriage certificate the name of the father is given differently, as "Robert John Holmes".)

But this coincidence points to a different person from the one Grey Owl married, since "Florence I Holmes" appears in a 1950 census as living in Chicago. Could it be that this is the Florence Ivy Holmes who was born in Chicago in 1891 and was still living there - not in England - in 1950?

Dsiedler (talk) 16:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The 1921 Census gives Florence Ivy Mary Holmes birth as Chicago USA, described as being resident and "British Born" i.e. with British parents. She was a visitor staying with Annie Cash (widow) and John Kingston Edward Cash whom she married later.

The 1939 Register gives Florence I M Cash as born 11 April 1891. AndyScott (talk) 12:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

That's good corroboration. Can you provide a citation? I can find the records you refer to at www.findmypast.co.uk, but I can't get anything citeable without buying something.

What do you make of the following records?

1) Florence I Holmes: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6X1N-BK84

2) Florence I. Holmes: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7MK-1LG

Would you say (1) is simply a different person born around the same time as (2) and (2) is the Ivy Holmes that married Belaney? Dsiedler (talk) 15:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I could send you photos of the 1921 Census and 1939 Register. I had not found her in birth records in England nor the marriage of her parents but the 1921 Census cleared that up by her being born in USA. I can find her mother born Oct-Dec 1864 in Stepney. There is a marriage of a Mary Abraham to a John Ansley Holmes in Stepney in Jan-Mar 1889. There are too many John Robert Holmes to find his birth. I assume that he must have died in USA. I can't find a connection to Rev John Backhouse Holmes either, just a coincidence in names?

I think that is all that I can find out about Ivy. SVPetersham (talk) 16:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I don't need photos. I'll just give general citations of the 1921 census and the 1939 register, without URL. That should suffice. I think we've nailed the birth place down now.

I doubt if the Reverand is a relation. Holmes is a pretty common name, even including a famous detective. ;)

Thanks for your help!!! Dsiedler (talk) 19:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

How to get a transcript at findmypast.co.uk without a subscription?

Hi SVPetersham, I noticed you doing good work with sources at findmypast.co.uk. Whenever I follow a link to a transcript at this site it wants me to buy something. But the link you have provided works for me as long as I am logged in. Just wondering how you managed that. Dsiedler (talk) 09:51, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Things like the Census and 1939 Register are chargeable. The birth, marriages and death records are freely available, eg at www.freebmd.org.uk SVPetersham (talk) 10:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

new section: Career as dancer

It was Ivy's fate to go down in history as "Grey Owl's English wife", but heading off to perform on the Continent as a professional dancer at the age of 15 was no mean accomplishment. It was probably also the case that her career was nipped in the bud by the advent of WWI.

Smith provides a good description of the tour. (It's a pity he doesn't record the name of the company.) If there are no objections I would create a new section with more detail from this material.

I've also uploaded the two wonderful photos of her that are already linked in the article and would place them in the section:

Ivy Holmes posing seated

Ivy Holmes posing with hat

Dsiedler (talk) 14:33, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Great idea. I have not found any other references to her as a dancer. SVPetersham (talk) 16:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

"the family settled in Hastings where she went to school"

Smith tells a different story:

"Ivy’s father died when she was two, and she had been raised by her mother in London."

"The Holmes began coming to Highbury Villa [in Hastings] each summer during the school holidays."

"A few years later Archie visited the Holmeses for short periods in London at their Hammersmith home in London’s West End."

So there was a strong connection to Hastings, which probably accounts for her participation in the Pupils' Concert there. But I think it's safer to go with Smith's account and say the family settled in London. It's also more likely that London had a dance school able to train dancers to a professional level than Hastings. I'll make the changes if there are no objections.

Do you know whether the father died in Chicago? It would make sense that they returned home after the breadwinner died, but a source would be required. Dsiedler (talk) 19:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I have not found out about her father or his marriage. I guess that he died in USA.

Florence (aged 34) and Ivy (aged 9, born USA) are in Hammersmith on the 1901 Census taken on 31 March. I'll see if I can get hold of that.

I could not find them on the 1911 Census.

I have not found them on passenger lists. SVPetersham (talk) 22:00, 16 April 2024 (UTC)