Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (third nomination)

Allegations of apartheid

Allegations of apartheid (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This article was deleted at its second AfD nomination as violating WP:SYNT. DRV overturned, citing insufficient evidence of consensus on that crucial point in the debate. The matter is returned to AfD for further consideration. Please consult the AfD and DRV before commenting. This is a procedural nomination, so I abstain. Xoloz 16:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong keep. Nearly every statement in this article is sourced. This article does not constitute an original synthesis as there is plenty of coverage and discussion of "Allegations of apartheid". The fact that it discusses mentions of allegations in multiple countries is simply a matter of content organisation: this page (on the main topic of allegations of apartheid) serves as a gateway to the country-specific articles. Moreover, the allegation (pun intended) that this article exists "to advance a position", which is a condition of WP:SYNT, is dubious at best. -- Black Falcon 16:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Black Falcon RaveenS 17:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - that such accusations are made is a matter of fact, and that they play an important role in the political rhetoric should be self-evident. We probably need better guidelines for articles about political rhetoric, but that's another discussion. --Leifern 17:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Obvious Delete Rightly deleted the first time as a violation of WP:SYNTH and WP:NOR. The sections on numerous different disparate topics on the same page are linked only by a rhetorical word, rather than by subject matter, makes it WP:SYNTH. Meaning that it is original research to combine and link these disparate topics, as they had never been studied as a collective phenomenon elsewhere. It means that wikipedia had effectively created and collectively studied a topic, "allegations of apartheid", that didn't exist in the outside world, and elevated a rhetorical descriptive term used in passing to the status of a topic in itself, which in reality it isn't. Individually, "tourist apartheid" in Cuba stems from a wider programme of policies initiated after Cuba's economic collapse of the early 1990s, "social apartheid" in Brazil relates to years of economic disparities in Brazil that can be traced back to the time of slavery, "Israeli apartheid" refers to a particular dispute in the middle east. None of these have any connection to each other other than one rhetorical term used in passing, and have never been associated or studied as a collective phenomenon elsewhere. Because they do not form a single topic or subject. Whatsmore, the surrounding activities on this and other apartheid articles, including Israel, Brazil and Cuba have been attempts by partisans to game the consensus system and utilise strategies that go wholly against the ethos and spirit of the site. Many parties are guilty of continuing this unsavoury farce and these games should not be allowed to hijack content anymore. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 17:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete While I don't think the synthesis argument holds in this case, this article is unrescueable. All this is is a long list of countries, which I'm fairly sure anyone with time on their hands could expand to cover every country in the world. The single "general" paragraph consists entirely of a dicdef and a very misleading claim (yes, the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid was technically passed by the UN, but no major country other than the USSR ever ratified it, while most major countries - including the US, Russia & China - don't recognise the International Criminal Court). "Apartheid" in the criminal sense ("inhumane acts committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime") also bears no relation to virtually all of the examples cited in this article and its walled garden - "gender apartheid", "the apartheid of the rich", "tourist apartheid" et al (even "apartheid for terrorists" in the UK entry). Although, I would love to hear more on "Canada & New Zealand's well-known support for the practice of slavery". - iridescenti (talk to me!) 18:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. The people who allege that a country is practicing apartheid do so for a reason; either they seriously believe that the country in question has practices that resemble apartheid, or they do so for rhetorical effect that they know their listener will understand. In either case, the accusations are often made by notable people, and the phenomenon itself is both widespread and notable. If this article shouldn't exist, then neither should the sub-articles, such as Allegations of Israeli apartheid. Yet those arguing vociferously for the deletion of the main arguably unfathomably argue that the sub-articles be kept; it's as if they imagine that the people using the term "apartheid" have no idea what it means, and that those hearing it similarly have no idea what it means. People use the term "apartheid" because it actually means a very specific thing. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment I do imagine that the people using the term "apartheid" on this page are using it incorrectly. Allegations of Israeli apartheid is a keep because it's using it correctly ("inhumane acts committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime"), whilst almost every other entry on this list is using it as a synonym for "any kind of social divide" - tourist apartheid, financial apartheid, gender apartheid etc etc etc. I don't accept that use of it in the vernacular sense of "two groups of people being treated different for whatever reason" is an acceptable use of the phrase on this page, given that the page says from the start that it is using the term in its legal sense. And, as I say above, if the article is using the word in its broadest sense, I'm pretty certain I could write a plausible "Allegations of apartheid" page about any country in the world. - iridescenti (talk to me!) 21:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you have it exactly wrong: Israelis and Palestinians are not different "racial" groups; on the contrary, genetic research indicates that they are closely related. In reality the article the term best applies to is Allegations of Brazilian apartheid; I recommend reading it. As for writing an article about "any country in the world", it's not as easy as you suggest; you'd have to quote reliable sources for a start. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Super strong easy keep - uhm, 73 sources? Well written? Encyclopaedic? ... I'm hard pressed to imagine how anyone could think this is appropriate for deletion. WilyD 21:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Not only that, the sub-articles have an additional 143 references. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
    • This is only half as well referenced as the sub articles? Maybe I was wrong - why have this if it's daughter articles are better??? WilyD 22:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
      • The daughter articles are much, much longer. In some cases, absurdly long - Allegations of Israeli apartheid is almost 60k and has 89 references. This article was used for the Allegations that didn't necessarily merit their own articles. The longest one should be summarized and restored to this article, it's a shameful polemic. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Abundance of references does not make an article more worthy. We could source "Allegations of fascism" all night if we wanted to.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 22:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm sure if you could get together a movement to delete all the related "Allegations of apartheid" articles, you might have more success. As it is, though, people who insist that the Allegations listed here are merely "ephemeral", "neologisms", and (my favorite) "invoked rhetorically" also vote Strong Keep when their own favorite rhetoric is put up for AfD. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep as long as the sub-articles exist. I find it puzzling how the arguments made for deleting this entry are withheld regarding some of its subarticles - lets try to maintain a consistent approach to the lot of them. Tewfik^Talk 21:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Neither puzzling nor inconsistent. I have argued repeatedly for the deletion of all the subarticles as well, while you have argued for the deletion of one article here and here, but have argued to keep others here and here. How's that for consistency?-- Zleitzen^(talk) 22:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
    • The "Delete" votes were many months ago, the "Keep" votes were very recent. Obviously he has come to realize that Wikipedia is the kind of encyclopedia that takes Allegations of apartheid seriously. Given that's the case, it shouldn't be favoring some Allegations over others. Of course, if Wikipedia were to come to consensus that these kinds of Allegations are not encyclopedic after all, I'm sure he'd apply that consistently as well. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Obvious delete per Zleitzen. Those who invoke the need for "a consistent approach" and maintain that "if this article shouldn't exist, then neither should the sub-articles," etc. – need to review WP:SYNTH. There is not a single source – much less "73 sources" – for this article's brazen conflation of disparate subject matter and unrelated materials. The miscellany google-gathered here is united only by the use of a single word, sometimes invoked rhetorically and in passing, sometimes as part of a catchy ephemeral neologism ("water apartheid," "nuclear apartheid"), and sometimes, though only rarely, as the basis of an extended historical comparison. The "topic" that supposedly comprises all these things exists only in the minds of Wikipedians, and even then only Wikipedians bent on making a WP:POINT. It is as absurd as having an article on "allegations of ethnic cleansing," and including therein the Janjaweed's campaign in the Sudan, the aftermath of the Katrina disaster, and the gentrification of San Francisco's Mission District. Enough already; let's get it out of there.--G-Dett 21:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - per Black Falcon, Leifern, WilyD, Jayjg, Tewfik. The term seems to be used by politicians/propagandists (rightly or wrongly, like it or not), so why not systematize that usege in an encyclopedic way. OTOH, if it is a proven neologism, delete the entire series. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, The allegations are a growing phenomenon. Keep per Jayjg, Humus sapiens, WilyD, Tewfik, Black Falcon, and Leifern. --Shamir1 22:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. If the usage of apartheid as rhetorical device in recent political discourse was coined or discovered by wikipedians, the article should be deleted. Else, it depicts a political phenomenon as encyclopaedically relevant as others, whether its use is appropriate or not. --tickle me 22:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)