Talk:George II of Greece/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: UndercoverClassicist (talk · contribs) 07:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Two initial comments:

• There are some Harvard errors that immediately stick out. Some citations, such as Mateos Sáinz de Medrano 2004 and Vacalopoulos 1975, don't point to any reference: conversely, the Clogg reference doesn't appear to be cited. The Φύλλας Μιχάλης reference should also be translated into English: the title can be left in Greek using script-title=el:[title], translated if you wish using {{{trans-title}}}, and the rest should be translated. Suggest using User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js to catch and fix the errors. Done
• There are also some easily-fixed typographical mistakes in the article: I noticed a </ref> tag on display, for example. Done

Discussion

Give me a ping when this stuff is sorted and I'll review the article in more detail. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: Hello! Thank you for much for starting this review so soon! I have fixed the second point that you brought o my attention above. As for the first point, a lot of these references were taken from the French Wikipedia. I am not exactly sure how to do what you have asked — clearly I am not very experienced in it. Would you mind pointing me towards how to fix this? Thanks. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:11, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, I think I was able to do it.Does everything look okay? - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Improvements made: Clogg is still uncited, and there are some sources cited in full in the footnotes but not cited in the bibliography. This isn't a critical problem for GA, but does make a difference to the article quality. On a different note, I don't think Queen Maria of Romania (d. 1938) wrote a book in 2006: this is almost certainly a reprint/compilation of earlier work, and should probably be cited as such. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:23, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: I think I have fixed the Clogg reference now(?). As for the Queen Maria of Romania citation, I actually copied that from the French Wikipedia and you are right, it seems very improbable that she wrote that source 68 years after she passed, haha. So how would you recommend we fix this? - Therealscorp1an (talk) 10:42, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

The |orig-date= parameter can be used to indicate the work's original publication: I'd suggest tracking down some information on the original work's bibliography, and citing it with something like "republished as ...". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 11:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: I think I have completed all these initials tasks now. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 02:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I am writing to express my concern about the extensive use of sources that seem to me to be of questionable reliability as far as Greek politics and especially the monarchy's role is concernced. Large parts of the article's text rely on works of royal biographers, such as John Van der Kiste, Hugo Vickers and Prince Michael of Greece and Denmark. I am wondering whether the nominator would like to explain how s/he sees these works fulfilling the encyclopedia's criteria for being reliable sources for Greek political history. The reason I am asking this is that the account provided in sections and parts of the article heavily relying on such sources is largely at variance with the image one forms about political developments when consulting mainstream works of contemporary Greek historiography.

I will refer to one IMO glaring such case. The first paragraph of the section "Restoration of the monarchy" states that "This "regime issue" that arose just after the proclamation of the republic, haunted Greek politics for more than a decade and eventually led to the restoration of monarchy. In just over ten years, Greece had twenty-three governments, thirteen coup d'états and one dictatorship. On average, each Cabinet lasted six months and a coup d'état was organised every 42 weeks. Having failed to restore political instability, the republicanism movement in Greece became criticised and opposed by the public. Gradually, there were more and more protests that voiced to restore the monarchy." The article proceeds to describe in the next paragraph the events that led to the restoration of the monarchy in 1935 as if they naturally ensued from this supposedly growing number of pro-royalist protests. However, if one is to compare this passage to what s/he reads e.g. in the work of (university historian/polsci) George Mavrogordatos Μετά το 1922: Η παράταση του διχασμού (After 1922: the prolongation of the Schism), which, according to a reviewer, "προτείνει την εκλεπτυσμένη εκδοχή μιας κρίσιμης ιστορικής περιόδου" ("suggests a nuanced version of a critical historical period"), one will notice great differences. For, Mavrogordatos records (p. 61) that after the elections of 1932 "[ο Τσαλδάρης] αναγνώρισε επίσημα και ανεπιφύλακτα την Αβασίλευτη Δημοκρατία" ("[ Panagis Tsaldaris ] officially and unreservedly recognized the Kingless Republic"), that the 1935 referendum was a "farce" ("φάρσα") and that its result of an majority in favour of restoring the monarchy is "belied by previous and subsequent electoral data" ("διαψεύδεται από προγενέστερα και μεταγενέστερα εκλογικά δεδομένα"), while no mention of this supposedly growing dissatisfaction with the republican regime is made.

Another crucial point is the importance of the constitutional issue and of the king's personal stance for developments in the period from 1941 and up until 1946. I am quoting from Sfikas, "Churchill and the Greeks", Journal of Contemporary History: (p. 312) "British policy, therefore, was to support the Greek king and the government-in-exile. Yet the overwhelming majority of Greeks, for whom the constitutional question had assumed the explosive proportions of a genuine national schism in the inter-war years, thought otherwise. After the demise of the short-lived Greek Republic, George II had been restored to his throne in November 1935 by way of a farcically rigged plebiscite; less than a year later he had collaborated with Metaxas in establishing the general's dictatorship. His conduct inevitably led to a massive proliferation of republicanism among Greeks," and later on (p. 314) "EAM/ELAS was convinced that the British, bent upon imposing the monarchy on the Greek people, were weakening the leftist resistance in favour of other rival organizations. It was primarily for this reason that EAM/ELAS set out to consolidate its power by disposing of its rivals. Civil war erupted in October 1943 between ELAS and EDES,". Dimitrakis (2009) states in page 36 (already referred to in the article) that SOE operatives "were able to assess the feelings of the Greeks towards the return of the king" and in the very next pages states that "Major David Wallace, an SOE officer and a man ‘of very balanced judgment’ the Foreign Office trusted, estimated that ‘there was practically no support that you can trace anywhere for the immediate return of the King.’"". Again, the extent of popular dissaproval of the restoration of George II at the time is nowhere stated in the article (let alone its lead) and is constantly toned down (as "dissensions both inside Greece and among the Greeks abroad"), while the crucial role of the king's instransigence (along with that of his British supporters) for the eruption of intra-resistance infighting/civil conflict between ELAS and EDES is not even hinted at.

I am thus worried that the article fails to cover the criterion about neutrality, due to its heavy reliance on non-scholarly sources of questionable scientific reliability and of pro-royalist bias for important aspects of Greek political history. Ashmedai 119 (talk) 20:29, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I will let Therealscorp1an reply to this, but a few points on the GA criteria and what they are not -- there is a useful contrast here with the FAC criteria:

• A Good Article needs to cover the "main aspects" of a topic: it does not need to be comprehensive and to cover everything important about them, unlike an FA. For biographies in particular, main aspects is a low bar: it is very rarely appropriate to fail a GA for not including a particular set of facts about a person's life.
• The sources for a GA need to be reliable (that is, in general, published in reputable media), not to pass the bar of high-quality reliable sources needed for an FA. While an FA review would favour scholarly sources, academic presses and so on, this is not a requirement at this level.

This is not to say that improvements can't be made, but it's important to keep in mind the purpose and level of this review process -- even once an article has passed GA, it will almost certainly have areas for improvement, and often evolve considerably if it subsequently goes on to FAC. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

More detailed review

• The eldest son of King Constantine I and Sophia of Prussia: this reads as if Constantine was king of Prussia: suggest "King Constantine I of Greeece and..." Done
• We don't normally mark stress in Greek-language Romanisation. Done

  @UndercoverClassicist: Many articles do have the stress/accents marked in the romanisation, for example Constantine II of Greece, Kyriakos Mitsotakis and Katerina Sakellaropoulou. How would you advise we move on from this point? - Therealscorp1an (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

  For GA, we can simply leave it: if the article comes to FA, it would be useful to have an external transcription guide/standard to back up the decision made here. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:25, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

• I usually include a footnote to explain the Old Style dates on first use (see for instance Panagiotis Kavvadias). Done

  @UndercoverClassicist: This is in the infobox. Should I add a note after the first case in the prose as well? - Therealscorp1an (talk) 08:48, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I would: most readers will read that first. I notice you've used a template here: I've done some stuff so that it can be reused without creating an additional footnote. Strictly speaking, the footnote should be cited too, even though it's not controversial: you can pull the reference from the article I linked, if you like. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:27, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

• Per MOS:POSSESSIVE, Metaxas' and similar should be written as Metaxas's. Done
• Greece was overrun following a German invasion: the MoS would encourage the link to cover the "a" as well. Done
• George returned to Greece after the war after a 1946 plebiscite: I would delete after the war as clunky and redundant: we immediately say that this was after 1946. Done
• Check parameters in sfn templates: where only one page is cited, use |p= or |page= rather than |pages= Done

More to follow. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:25, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

• Clogg 1979 and Fillas 2019-2020 now seem to be uncited?</ref> Done

  @UndercoverClassicist: I have fixed the Clogg 1979 issues. However, I have bene looking through old revisions, long before I started the expansion, and it appears that the Fillas reference was never used anywhere. What would you suggest we do? Also, continuing from above, would you like me to include the stress marks on the romanisation or not? - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:04, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

  • Fillas: you can either bin it or move it to a "Further Reading" section (add |ref=none if doing so). The second option is better if you think it might have something useful for a reader or future editor. If not, the first is better.
  • Romanisation: up to you: as I said, it's no great shakes for GA. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:24, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: All the points you have listed have now been completed. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

• Constantine was restored to the throne in 1920: it might be worth clarifying that Alexander had died, rather than being deposed.
• Through his parents, George was a great-grandson: would cut through his parents: I'm not sure how else he could have been a great-grandson of anyone.
• training with the Prussian Guard: this sounds as though George never joined the Prussian Guard, is that accurate?
• George pursued a military career, training with the Prussian Guard at the age of 18, then serving in the Balkan Wars as a member of the 1st Greek Infantry: this bit seems out of place: for the rest of this paragraph, George is a baby, and we cover his military career later. I would simply remove this from this section and make sure that it's all covered when we get round to it.
• Is the "1st Greek Infantry" the 1st Infantry Regiment (Greece)? I would use its more formal name, and link, if so.
• During George's birth, her mother: his mother, surely?
• George was helped delivered by : not quite grammatical in English: suggest "A German midwife, sent by his grandmother, Victoria, assisted with George's delivery.}} It might be worth adding something like "Victoria, the Princess Royal" to be clear that this is a different (more German) Victoria.
• George was baptised on 18 August 1980: check the date. Also, give OS/NS, as you have in the lead.
• Decapitalise "godparents".
• including Queen Victoria, his great-grandmother: we've said that she was his great-grandmother earlier in the paragraph, so I'd cut it here.
• born between 1980 and 1913: again, check dates.
• to visit his British relatives. They often stayed: Suggest spelling out "They" as "the Greeks" or similar: as written, it sounds as though the British relatives often stayed in these places.
• George was described: by whom? Per the MoS, we should always give the author of a statement of opinion in the text.
• George received a strong military education: what does strong mean in this context? Suggest another adjective.
• He was trained in military school in Athens at the Hellenic Military Academy: I would shorten to at t he Hellenic Military Academy in Athens: it's pretty obvious from the name that it's a military school.
• 27 May 1909: give the OS/NS date as you have in the lead.
• 15 August 1909: ditto.
• however, it is argued that many of the officers involved in coup blamed the high-ranking princes: in the coup. Argued by whom?
• by George, his grandson, or another neutral candidate: how many people are involved here? Suggest "another neutral candidate, such as George, his grandson".
• No need for pictured in a picture caption.
• Suggest a little more clarity on the potential monarchs: e.g. Proposed candidates included the Austrian duke Francis of Teck or a member of the German royal house of Hohenzollern
• George, his siblings and his parents evacuate Greece and move to Germany for numerous months in exile: evacuated. We later say that this lasted three years: that's a bit more than "numerous months" -- why not give that precise figure here instead? Done

More to follow. Two general points cropping up a lot: firstly, make sure that all dates are given with both OS and NS where appropriate; secondly, make sure that the main narrative is written in the past tense, not the present. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thank you, I will get to these soon. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: These changes are now complete. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 04:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: Hi, sorry to disturb you, I am just wondering if there will be any more changes to make for this GAN? - Therealscorp1an (talk) 21:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay: here's a few more.

• the First Foot Guards Regiment, a regiment of the Prussian army: better simply as the First Foot Guards Regiment of the Prussian army (no need to say it's a regiment twice). It might be worth a brief comment as to how prestigious that regiment was, and its strong (German) royal connections.
• When violence was reduced in Greece and political stability was restored: the passive voice is odd here: roughly, how did this happen?
• George and his brother, Alexander, served as an officer with his father's staff: as officers, and you generally serve on someone's staff.
• George served on the frontlines of numerous battles ... George also participated in the capture of Thessaloniki: wasn't this also a battle? If so, we need something like "Among them" rather than "also". Do we know what any of the other battles were? I'm also a little dubious about "on the frontlines": a senior officer's staff would generally be quite a long way from those. What exactly was George doing there?
• George's grandfather and the concurrent king, George I, : reigning rather than concurrent (I think you mean current, but that's not quite right here either).
• Constantine's father, whose popularity had grown : George's father, surely?
• his future wife, Elisabeth of Romania: I would mention who her parents were: she wasn't just any Romanian.
• When Greece and its allies became successful in the war: does this mean won the war? When did this happen?
• His assassination: give FF's name again, as it's a new paragraph, or simply "The assassination".
• the breakout of: the idiom you're going for here is outbreak.
• Opposition soon accused Constantine of supporting the Triple Alliance and relations between him and Venizelos, who believed that Greece should side with the Triple Entente: we haven't actually said who the Triple Alliance/Triple Entente were.
• Central Greece became under occupation by the Western Allies: better as was occupied by the Western Allies (who are these?)
• Due to worry of an Allied invasion at Piraeus: the Allies actually did occupy Athens. We've also moved between "Entente" and "Allies": I think we need to either stick with "Entente" or be clear as to why we've switched (presumably because Russia is out and the United States are in?)
• Being married to a French princess, George also did not wish to upset the French government: why would this upset the French? We just said that they wanted Greece to have a king (part of me is also a bit quizzical on "French princess": would anyone outside her family have accepted that title?).
• There are a lot of day-month dates in WWI that need to be clarified for calendar.

@UndercoverClassicist: I'm sorry, I am not too sure what you mean by this. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 02:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Greece used the Julian Calendar until 1923. When George participated in ... the capture of Thessaloniki on 8 November 1912, was that November 8 as most readers would understand it (that is, the article anachronistically but reasonably uses the Gregorian date), or November 21 (that is, the article uses the Julian date, as would have been used by the people at the time, contemporary sources, etc). It's the former, but we need to use the OldStyleDate template to clarify that. Ditto any other time a date including a day is used before March 1923. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Historians argue that he was fearful of dealing with his opponents and the fact that his reign was illegitimate according to succession laws.: which ones? They should be named in the text.
• It marked the final time that George had contact with his brother, Alexander.: what marked the first time they had contact? Didn't they serve together in WWI and live together as children?
• moved across the Ionian Sea : I would cut this, since they then had to move across the Tyrrhenian sea and over some of the Alps: it's a bit poetic and not quite accurate. Simply "moved to Switzerland".
• all members of the royal families: why the plural?
• Constantine soon developed an illness. He almost died in 1918 upon his contraction of the Spanish flu.: are these the same illness?
• was not helped when Alexander decided to marry commoner and aristocrat Aspasia Manos, rather than a foreign royal, which dismayed Venizelos.: "commoner" and "aristocrat" are antonyms.
• According to Van der Kiste, the referendum was most likely rigged: by Rallis?
• Many portraits of Venizelos are torn down in state celebrations and replaced with photos of the royal family: were
• the large crowd that had turnout to see their returns: turned out, return. Done

@UndercoverClassicist: The above points have now been finished. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 03:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Another batch (I haven't gone through the above to check/reply: can do that in a second run after the whole article has had a first pass. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

* Greece did not receive any support in the war against Mustafa Kemal's Turkey: we haven't actually said that this war broke out, or what it was. I'm also not totally clear what Mustafa Kemal is doing here: we wouldn't say "Germany's war against George V's Britain".

• he visited Greeks and wounded Greek soldiers in hospital: suggest wounded Greek soldiers and civilians in hospital: at the moment, I'm not clear on the distinction between the two categories here.
• Greece was pushed back to Ankara and suffered heavy defeats at the Battle of Sakarya in August and September 1921.: this is quite confusing, in part because we don't really have a proper overview of the military picture here.
• the father of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh,: as we have for the future-but-not-yet Carol II, we should say "the future..." her to avoid being anachronistic.
• Mateos Sainz de Medrano: accent on the a of Sainz.
• which fell on 9 September [Old Style: 27 August] 1922 after the city was ransacked and burned. : this is backwards; the burning was just over two weeks after the Turkish army took the city.
• An estimated number of between 10,000 and 125,000 Greeks and Armenians were killed, which influenced a greater degree of republicanism in Athens: this needs some explaining. That's also a big range: any way to narrow it down?

@UndercoverClassicist: The source I think gives the same estimate that is given within the Burning of Smyrna article itself. How would you propose we could fix this? - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Most good, recent sources that I can find seem to err on the high side (see here, here, and here), going for "up to 100,000", "tens of thousands", or similar. The "tens of thousands and up to 100,000" figure is given here (p. 21) if you want a specific citation. Certainly, I can't find the 125,000 figure being seriously used anywhere, but 10,000 seems pretty low. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: Okay, so what do you suggest I change it to? Should I say "around 100,000" instead? And what sources do I use for this? - Therealscorp1an (talk) 00:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I would personally go with "tens of thousands". To me, the HQRS consensus is that a) 10,000 or fewer is too low and b) >100,000 is too high. Any formulation that gets that across is fine. As for sources, I've given you four in the comment above -- take your pick! UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• since the 11 September coup d'état: hold on: what was this one all about? Also, 11 September by which calendar?
• the residency of Mon Repos in Corfu: on Corfu. Suggest also royal residence

@UndercoverClassicist: I have made this change. I understand that it is because Corfu is an island, but is it not still grammatical to say "in"? Personally, it seems a bit odd to say "on Corfu" out loud. But I'm not too fussed either way! - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

You're right: as it's an island, it's on. There are a few special cases, usually when the island is also a country or city -- "People drive on the left in Cyprus" -- but those don't apply here. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• by republican Prime Minister Gonatas: per MOS:PEOPLETITLES, better as "the republican prime minister, Gonatas"
• Furthermore, George's long years spent living abroad had led him to a mentality that was not seen as Greek: what does this mean, exactly? Done

@UndercoverClassicist: Thanks for your help! The above points have now been completed as well. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 10:11, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• Tried by the humiliations of exile, financial difficulties and the absence of children, George and Elisabeth's marriage deteriorated. After having first assuaged her weariness in too rich food and gambling, Elisabeth then carried out extra-marital affairs with various married men. She took advantage of a visit to her sick sister, Maria, in Belgrade to flirt with her own brother-in-law, Alexander I of Yugoslavia.: the tone here is drifting into non-NPoV: "assuaged her weariness in too rich food and gambling", or the idea of "taking advantage of a visit to flirt with her own brother-in-law". We need to keep things to the facts and avoid anything that could be read as moralising.
• Some scholars have blamed her affairs on George's abandonment of their relationship.: what does this actually mean? There's a definite imbalance here in the blame the article apportions to George and to Elisabeth: is the massively greater focus on her WP:DUE based on secondary sources?
• Mitso Panteleos: who is this?
• Under Freeman Freeman-Thomas: explain who he was and the significance of "under" here.
• Joyce Wallach (1902–1974): per MOS:BIRTHDATE, bracketed dates like this are discouraged; if her date of birth or death is relevant, it should be introduced in prose as and when it becomes so.
• Wallach filed for divorce and moved back to London with George, which marked the beginning of a series of affairs that would last until George's death in 1947.: Wallach's affairs, or George's? I also note that we've been much kinder to George here than we were to Elisabeth earlier, which is not WP:NPOV.
• Though not branded as a fascist regime, Metaxas's dictatorship heavily imitated that of Benito Mussolini in Italy, whom Adolf Hitler had also been inspired by in Germany: probably worth saying that it is generally labelled as "quasi-fascist" in scholarship.
• tours of the provinces: what are "the provinces" in a Greek context? "The country"?

Hello, sorry I am taking a while, I have been busy. I will complete these within the next few days. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:51, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Changes now complete. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 04:32, 4 May 2024 (UTC)