Talk:Historicity of the Book of Mormon/Archive 1

Archive 1

West Eurasian origin of Native americans

"North American Indians are generally considered the genetic descendants of East Asian peoples.[42] Several authors have published works that suggest that current studies of genetic anthropology using DNA evidence do not provide support for the Book of Mormon. To date there have been no DNA studies which link any Native American group with any group in West Asia.[43][44"

I recently read an article in national geographics online that states, that they found out, Native Americans DO have West Eurasian origins too. Here's the link to the article. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/

I'm not a mormon but I think we should delete the line that there ate no proofs for west-asian or west-eurasian origin of native americans.

Eromae (talk) 10:28, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

There is only one minor edit that will harmonize this data:

• Change "with any group in West Asia" to "with West Eurasia".

While there are minor genetic links to the genome of West Eurasia, the article is clear that the linkage is with the ancestors of West Eurasian people, not with West Eurasia itself. The genome still crossed to America via the Bering Sea land bridge from the origin at Lake Baikal (which is in East Eurasia). The two things that 99% of NG's readers will miss are that the evidence is from Lake Baikal (and they have no idea that Lake Baikal is solidly in East Eurasia), and that the article clearly states that the genome still entered the Americas over the Bering Strait. --Taivo (talk) 15:32, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Untitled

The actual quote is "These include asses, cattle, milk,... plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots. The Smithsonian Institution has stated that "none of the principal food plants and domestic animals of the Old World (except the dog) were present in the New World before Columbus." I find this odd, considering the fact that the Smithsonian's own National Museum of the American Indian in Washington, D.C. as a very obvious example of a child's toy scimitar (made from clay) on display among the other examples of children's toys. (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8UMEf5UmkEnNzBiNWMxN2UtNmU2Yy00ZGY3LTlmOWMtNmY0NDdlMjIyNjEz&hl=en) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.199.182.234 (talk) 17:22, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The section on the Historicity at Book of Mormon have been deleted and a reference sent here. That means we have to neutralize this article, which seems to have problem. Let's mention one to start with.

"Critics believe that insufficient evidence in the pre-Columbian archaeological record for horses, cattle, swine, goats, wheat, steel swords, possible wheeled chariots and other elements mentioned in the Book of Mormon casts doubt on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon."

The actual situtation is that the overwhelming majority of non-LDS scholars believe that these technologies, animals or plants did not exist at the time the BOM describes. Calling them 'critics' implies that only those opposed to Mormonism believe this. Also "insufficient evidence" implies that there is a little, but not enough. In fact virtually the only evidence is LDS provided and disputed. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

This article isn't appropriately neutral. Clearly this was started by a pro-mormon writer. For example: historicity is generally not accepted. Generally? How about not accepted by any non-mormon scholar. I recommend that the wording for this paragraph is changed accordingly. Unless someone can find a half respected scholar - I'm going to change the wording here. Jspice9000 (talk) 16:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)jspice9000

This entire article should be deleted. There is no debate among persons outside of the Mormon faith regarding any factual basis for the claims in the Book of Mormon. Even to say that there is no debate among non-Mormon archaelogists is not a strong enough statement because it implies that there are Mormon archaelogists that believe in it. Let's be really clear here: archaelogy is a science, and if any person professing to be an archaelogist, Mormon or non-Mormon, claims that the events set forth in the Book of Mormons are true from an archaelogical standpoint, then that person is not a scientist and not an archaelogist. They can certainly believe so as a matter of faith, but wrapping themselves in the vestments of a profession does not make them part of the profession and does not legitimize their theories. I mean for crissakes, at least the Nazis had some shreds of archaelogical legitimacy to base their theories on. The Book of Mormon is about as credible as Scientology text from a historical standpoint. Ndriley97 (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I second the deletion of this article. More or less useless, and almost impossible to write from a 'neutral' perspective. The original read like a mormon apologist, and the current version was obviously sourced and written by a dedicated mormon critic. Overall, poor Wikipedia quality.96.225.230.22 (talk) 04:33, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

New Topics

Another potential topic would be the method of transportation to the new world. To my knowledge, there is no evidence that boats were sufficiently developed to make transatlantic travel possible at the time. I'll dig up some references for this. Jspice9000 (talk) 16:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)jspice9000

The limited geography section should be expanded a bit more. How can the Hill Cumorah be explained if the characters in the BoM stayed in Mesoamerica? Jspice9000 (talk) 16:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)jspice9000

I hate to be a real pain, but this page should probably be merged with the Archaeology page. I am no historian but it seems to me that a critique of the accuracy or historicity of a particular work (BoM in this case) one needs a historic event that the work describes and a general agreement as to what probably happened. For example, if I wrote an account of WWII (most agree it happened), areas of criticism could include topics such as which countries were involved, timelines, important individuals etc using letters written by soldiers compared to accountes written by the press. There are no events mentioned in this article at all and no mention of alternative scenarios or sources of information. It is my opinion that there is no evidence that any of the events described in the BoM actually happened but there is no possibility to critique it on these grounds since there are no alternative sources of information to determine the BoM's accuracy in describing those events. Can anyone come up with a good reason not to merge this? Jspice9000 (talk) 15:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)jspice9000

Perhaps Authenticity of the Book of Mormon would be a better title for this page? Jspice9000 (talk) 17:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)jspice9000

View of the Hebrews is a topic that I had almost forgotten about. If we keep this page, there should be a reference to this book. Jspice9000 (talk) 12:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)jspice9000

View of the Hebrews is treated in detail at Origin of the Book of Mormon.--Descartes1979 (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll add a one line reference to that page (Origin of...). Once again however, makes me think this page is incorrectly titled. Jspice9000 (talk) 12:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)jspice9000

Keep it Simple

Some of the sentences need to be simplified to provide clarity and better writing style to this article.--WaltFrost (talk) 22:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Please discuss

Let's remind people that discussion helps the process of producing a good article.

I've put back the reference to barley as being one of the items not found in the New World. That is the Smithsonian's opinion and I've referenced it. Please don't remove it without a more reliable counter-reference. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It be more correct to say that the Smithsonian used to say this. Current correspondence with them does not produce the same response. As for a counter-example, one need go no further than Wikipedia itself, which says that a form of barley, Hordeum pusillum ("little barley"), was cultivated (possibly even domesticated), in pre-Columbian times. As for mainstream scientific references, there are:

• Daniel B. Adams, "Last Ditch Archaeology," Science 83 (December 1983): 32
• V.L. Bohrer, "Domesticated and Wild Crops in the CAEP Study Area," in P.M. Spoerl and G.J. Gumerman, eds., Prehistoric Cultural Development in Central Arizona: Archaeology of the Upper New River Region (Southern Illinois University at Carbondale Center for Archaeological Investigations, Occasional paper 5, 1984): 252
• Nancy and David Asch, "Archaeobotany," Deer Track: A Late Woodland Village in the Mississippi Valley, edited by Charles R. McGimsey and Michael D. Conner (Kampsville, Illinois: Center for American Archaeology, 1985), 44
• Patricia L. Crown, "Classic Period Hohokam Settlement and Land Use in the Casa Grande Ruins Area, Arizona," Journal of Field Archaeology, Vol. 14, No. 2 (Summer, 1987), pp. 147-162
• Bruce D. Smith, "Origins of Agriculture in Eastern North America," Science, New Series, Vol. 246, No. 4937 (Dec., 1989), pp. 1566-1571.

There's probably more, but this was the result of a quick search. --FyzixFighter (talk) 16:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. That's the sort of references we are looking for. You might want to think about finding somewhere to explain this in the article, because lots of sources cite barley as one of the things not present in the New World and some editor will add it. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

LFrankow

Just a heads-up. Many of the links at the bottom of the article are dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lfrankow (talk • contribs) 15:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

LDS Apologists

Can anyone explain what the purpose of the section LDS Apologists is? The first three sentences would be agreed with by any archaeologist (They have little bearing on the historicity question except to confirm that some civilizations did exist). The final sentence is covered much better in succeeding sections. Could I maybe replace it with a statement of agreed facts and a pointer to later sections? DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It's gone. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Charles Anthon

Although this discussion is interesting, Charles Anthon didn't know what he was talking about since the Rosetta stone wasn't discovered until 1799, hence he couldn't say whether Smith actually knew what he was talking about or not either. Can anyone think of any reason to keep this paragraph in light of this? Jspice9000 (talk) 16:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)jspice9000

Firstly all this is happening in the early nineteenth century, after the Rosetta was discovered. Secondly translation (which Rosetta allowed) isn't the issue, it's identification of the writing as Egyptian. It is certainly possible that a scholar could have identified the writing as plausibly Egyptian or not without reference to Rosetta. But thirdly and most importantly the Anthon story is frequently used by Mormons to attest to the historicity of the BoM, so the story belongs here solely on that basis. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Good points. I had always assumed that the translations from the Rosetta Stone had never been seen by neither Smith nor Anthon. Why? I have read that some of the original 'egyptian' translations from Smith were discovered recently and found to be completely incorrectly translated. I need to dig up some references for this however. If I can find some good references, what then? Add to this section? Jspice9000 (talk) 12:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)jspice9000

Please read the following wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Papyri. This paragraph in particular:

In July of 1835, Chandler brought four mummies and associated papyri to Kirtland, Ohio, then headquarters of the Latter-Day Saints. Although the Rosetta Stone had been discovered in 1799, the ability to read Egyptian wasn't well developed until the 1850s. Chandler asked Joseph Smith to look at the scrolls and give some insight into what was written on them, due to Smith's notoriety and claim to have translated the golden plates of the Book of Mormon.

Maybe we need a link to that article? Jspice9000 (talk) 17:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

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