Talk:Illinois Fighting Illini

Marching Illini

What about the Marching Illini, they have a very close relationship to athletics 68.78.121.92 07:00, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• Added as a 'See also' entry. -- Upholder 19:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

NCAA Final Four

Someone (they don't have a username) keeps deleting the "Final Fours" from the Men's Basketball championships section, citing that Final Fours are not in fact championships and should not be listed. They are, however, noteworthy accomplishments for which every school receives a banner to hang in their arena rafters, and are routinely listed as major accomplishments in most sports and media guides. Furthermore, most people are quite aware that Final Fours are not in fact championships (even though I own a t-shirt that says "Illinois: 2005 Chicago Regional Champions), so I feel any ambiguity in this area is well understood by a reader. I don't feel like changing the "Championships" heading to "Championships and Other Noteworthy Accomplishments" just for this one line, so I feel that status quo should be maintained, with the Final Fours listed under "championships." Chiwara 22:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

RESPONSE I keep changin it because the heading says "championships." As such, the FFs should either be removed or the heading changed...I mean, finishing above .500 on the road in the Big Ten is a noteworthy accomplishment, but it does not make it a championship...this list includes only conference championships, national championship and basketball final fours- one of these things is not like the other...if you think it should stay in, then add all final fours from all other sports and change the heading...moreover there is a seperate section IN THIS SAME ARTICLE regarding the 04-05 team — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.16.210 (talk • contribs) 09:12, April 11, 2007 (UTC)

Fine. Chiwara 02:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Student Support of the Chief?

the article claims that it is "a well-established fact" that a "large majority" of the students are "Pro-Chief"; surely for such a "well-established fact" a cite can be found? SmaleDuffin 21:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a really tough thing to prove. A 2004 referendum on the Chief had 2/3 of the students support his presence, but that is the only thorough study that's been done. Also dosesn't account for varying levels of support, or how students views may have changed in the past 3 years. I'd take it out - definitely not well-established.Chiwara 03:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The referendum had 69 percent of the 13,000 voters supporting the Chief, and 31 percent opposing. But, only 13,000 out of 37,000 voted. Hence 24 percent of the students support, 11 percent don't, 65 percent didn't vote. When I was at UIUC, the student government was largely dominated by the Greek system, which was largely pro-Greek. I would not think that the voters in this referendum constituted a random sample of the students. We cannot accurately ascribe any position to the 24,000 who did not vote. I know when I was there, many of the people I knew just wished both sides would go away; taking it out seems like the right move to me. SmaleDuffin 21:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Championship language disputes

I have again reverted the "Co-Champion" language attached to the Football listing to the language used on the NCAA site referenced. I have also again removed the "Helms Athletic Foundation" language from the Basketball entry as it is not present in the Illinois Media guide and is adequately covered in the attached reference. -- Upholder 19:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

There simply was no Basketball Championship awarded in 1915. The Helms foundation (which is unrelated to the NCAA) looked back years later and decided that Illinois may have been the best team that year. This is no more of a championship that a panel of experts on ESPN saying that they thought the 04-05 basketball team was the best in the county. I think that if you want to note the Helms Foundation's recogonition it should be properly noted in the text--- especially since their decisions have been widely disputed. - 207.114.16.210

You've made the assertion that the Helms Foundation has been widely disputed. Please provide supporting evidence from a reliable source. -- Upholder 14:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

For instance in 1954 the Helms foundation named Kentucky the National Champion. Most (including the NCCA) consider La Salle the 1954 national chamption. Indeed, even Kentucky's athletic department disregards the helms foundation conclusion and does not list 1954 as a "national championship". Brief reasearch reveals similar disputed findings in 1939, 1940 and 1944 (and I am sure there are many more). I know that Illini Fans want desperately to win a national champtionship, but lets not go lower than even Kentucky in trying to get one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.16.210 (talk • contribs) 07:24, April 19, 2007 (UTC)

Please provide citations to back your claim. The Illinois Sports Information Department doesn't qualify the 1915 National Championship in any way in the Basketball Media guide, it is listed simply as "National Champions". See page 4 of the Illinois Media Guide PDF in the upper right hand corner. -- Upholder 15:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You can look up a list of helms foundation "national Champions" and compare to a list of NCAA Champions just as easy as I can-- the fact taht the Illinois media guide lists it as a Championship is embarassing and seems desperate, espectially when other programs simply disregard the results of the Helms Foundation and try and win real titles. For example, you will never see Kentucky claim to the 1954 Champ or USC claim the 1940 championship EVEN THOUGH THE HELMS FOUNDATION NAMED THEM CHAMPION IN THOSE YEARS. With regard to Wikipedia...those schools that do bother to list helms championships, list it as such (see e.g. purdue or kansas) - 207.114.16.210

Since you haven't provided citations (per WP:RS) I have again removed the language. -- Upholder 15:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really see what the Wikipedia articles of other schools have to do with this. If anything, our source should be the official Illinois Media Guide (see above) and it echoes the list we have on this article. I agree with Upholder on this, if you can't find a more credible citation than the IMG to go against it, the list stays as is.Chiwara 02:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

User Talk:207.114.16.210, you have not provided any support for your argument, please do so or desist from changing the language on the page. I once again refer you to WP:Reliable Sources. -- Upholder 14:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

you can use any source you want to looks up the helms foundation champions (e.g., http://www.answers.com/topic/helms-athletic-foundation) and compare to the NCAA national champions and you will see some years they are DIFFERENT (such as the years I cited above). This would suggest that the the Helms Foundation National Champion (as I would call is different) from what is generally accepted as the "National Champion" (i.e. the NCAA Champion)...the other schools wikipedia articles have to do with consistency throughout wikipedia.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.114.16.210 (talk • contribs) 11:43, April 24, 2007 (UTC)

Simply asserting something is not enough. You must provide citations. If you are unable or unwilling to abide by Wikipedia policy, you are in danger of being blocked from editing. I will not continue this edit war, but instead ask for consenus to be reached. The language that has been used in the article matches the language used int he Illinois Media Guide as published by the Illinois Sports Information Department and as such is what I view as most appropriate for the article. I ask that all editors weigh in on one side of the discussion or the other. -- Upholder 17:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, I re-iterate my agreement with Upholder on this. The Helms Foundation is usually regarded as the definitive National Championship guide prior to the NCAA Tournament in 1939. No other established organization has ever claimed to name basketball champions prior to the NCAA, and for that reason the Illinois Media Guide lists them. Chiwara 01:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

here is a "source," the NCAA... http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/champs_listing1.html ...the NCAA considers the fighting illini to have only 17 National Championships (not including football) and NO basketball champtionships...simply select Illinios from the drop-down box... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.114.16.210 (talk) 14:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

That's not a source about the Helms Foundation being disuputed, just that the NCAA did not name a national champion in that era. Your citations must back your claim, which you have repeatedly said is that "The Helms Foundation championships are widely disputed." -- Upholder 16:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

and I cited four examples where their conclusions were disputed by the NCAA —The preceding, bottom line, when people say National Championship, they are talking about NCAA national championships. Illinois has not won one of these. see my NCAA link above unsigned comment was added by 207.114.16.210 (talk) 18:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

Your source says nothing about the Helms Foundation at all -- for or against. It is not evidence that it is "widely disputed". As you still have not provided any evidence and what little consensus we have is for removing the language, I have again done so. -- Upholder 23:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

nope