Talk:Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn

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Known members

Arnold Bennett was a name given in I. Regardies What you should know about the Golden Dawn. There might be in fact, two Arnold Bennetts, I'm not sure :/ This is all I know about the subject matter of this individual. I'll see if I can spot anything else, in other books, or maybe a middle name. Zos 15:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh and yeah. My mistake not the alphabetical order. Zos 15:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

While looking into Regardie's book, you might have considered listing Regardie himself as a known member. No matter that he was "in at the death" (so to speak) of the Order.

Nuttyskin 21:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, actually, G.D. was dead by then. He was a member of Stella Matutina, IIRC. —Hanuman Das 22:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

How long does this list have to get before it's split off as a "List of known Golden Dawn members" page of its own?--The One True Fred 07:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Unicursal Hexagram (UH)

Aleister Crowley’s rendition of the Unicursal Hexagram

Traditional rendition of the Unicursal Hexagram, without the five petalled rose

Right, it has been removed twice now the image (shown below) of the UH stating that the HOOTGD did not use it or it wasn't their symbol. Like I said, any half decent research by yourselves can find this out. Also, Any credible historians documenting the History of the Hermetic Order will had has given this information.

Tow smal examples are as follows:

• The Complete Golden Dawn System of Magic (ltd edition) (Hardcover)

by Israel Regardie, Christopher S. Hyatt

• http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsunicursal.htm
• http://www.smokindragon.com/new_page_2.htm
• http://www.geocities.com/Paris/2110/unicursal.html

Crowly is credited with creating both design innacuratly by some historians. But, he amended the original and placed a five pettled rose in the middle. The original was devised and used by the HOOTGD.

The Unicursal Hexagram originates from the Golden Dawn document "Polygons and Polygrams". When Israel Regardie published his book "The Golden Dawn", he did not have access to document, and it was first published by Crowley, which lead to the generel misconception that Crowley originated the Unicursal Hexagram. Now however, he credits them with this.

Combined with the Marian Rose, the Unicursal Hexagram becomes Crowley's personal sigil, which is the magical union of 5 and 6 giving 11, the number of magick and new beginnings.

FK0071a 17:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

None of the sites you give meets Wikipedia requirements for references. Please see WP:V - the editor wishing to add the material is responsible for supplying a credible reference. In this case, a historical work showing that the symbol was used by the Golden Dawn and NOT some successor organization, Stella Matutina, modern G.D. reconstruction, etc. That is, a book reference, with a page number so other editors can verify it. Per WP:V, any editor may remove uncited additions. The burden of proof is on the editor who wishes to make the addition. In any case, it doesn't belong at the top of the article! —Hanuman Das 04:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Values and Beliefs

Although there are a lot of good historical and topical explanations of the Order here, this page really needs some in-depth examination of the actual beliefs that ground the Order -- something that can give the reader some insight. Something to the effect of 'Religious Doctrine' in the Judaism article, or 'Beliefs' in Christianity and Islam. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Perditor (talk • contribs) .

I'm not sure that's workable, Perditor. The HOotGD was not a religious organization, and as such did not deal with issues of religious doctrine or belief. As such, members followed various religions, such as Allan Bennet, a Buddhist, or Aleister_Crowley, functionally an Atheist (in that he did not seem to believe in a "personal God"). Many GD members were Christian (nominal or devout). Justin Eiler 21:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Picture

I suggest changing the picture that is shown in the article. It may be relevant for the article on MacGregor Mathers (actually it is also found there), but if the ritual is not a Golden Dawn ritual, then why is it here? My proposal is to use an image from an actual "historical GD" ritual, or of objects used in it. --Jdemarcos 11:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

• I would second that proposal - it detracts from the article by presenting a scene from a non-GD action. docboat 12:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

More balanced?

Hi everyone,

The article on HOOTGD is pretty good, but I'd strongly suggest that you add the following:

1) That the Cipher MSS is undoubtedly fake, and was most likely created to lend an air of authority to the nascent order;

2) That the communications from 'Anna Sprengel' were likewise nonexistent, and again served only as a method of bolstering the idea that the Order had authority and lineage.

69.158.180.15 17:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

No inter group squabbles on Wikipedia

User Glass FET, Please stopp reverting and discuss here instead. The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn® is the proper name of the outer order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega as they are the owners of this trademark in Europe as was noted this morning. Your revertig instead of discussing is in violation of Wikipedia policies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hogd2007 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

User Glass FET, it is also inappropriate to put spam for the article on the HOGD Florida corporation at the header of the main HOGD article. Your behavior is completely inappropriate. Please discuss here instead of reverting.

Moreover, your addition of the link to Roel Van Loeven's baloney attack on the lineage of the A+O shows that you are a HOGD, Inc. troll! This has no place here. Please discuss here before further vandalizing this article.

Van Leeuwen's article doesn't seem to be a "baloney attack on the lineage of the A+O". He has provided clear, well-researched information. He is merely stating, quite sensibly, and with full explanation of his reasoning, that none of the modern orders seem to have charters going back to the original Golden Dawn. One of the modern orders claims that the Ahathoor temple was in abeyance for some decades and was then "reactivated" — and thus it claims to still be working under the original charter. That in itself is very interesting information, worth keeping. The article's wording was indeed that the chartered status of modern orders was "debated", which is correct. In fact Van Leeuwen is only one of many people out there wondering how, after so many decades of inactivity from all but one of the Golden Dawn, Stella Matutina, A+O temples, there is now this sudden profusion of modern orders claiming to be the Golden Dawn. They may or may not be validly chartered, and it's not the place of this article to draw that conclusion. However it is its job to present the relevant information on this very interesting subject. Burying any discussion of these charter claims is quite inappropriate. If you feel there are other sources which discuss this better, then please add them by all means, but don't just sweep it under the carpet!

Also, please refrain from describing another editor's alterations as vandalism, unless it is clearly not a good-faith edit. "Vandalism" means something quite specific in Wikipedia, and is treated very seriously; it also has bearing on editing rules, since editors are exempt from the 3 revert rule when reverting vandalism. Fuzzypeg☻ 01:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Links to websites are not suitable for citations according to Wikipedia rules as they violate rules of "verifiability". (See Wikipedia rules regarding the verifiability of sources.)Furthermore the addition of external websites are spam. Thus the inclusion of the website by Van Leuvan is clearly in violation of Wikipedia rules. Furthermore the post by user Fuzzypeg violates the revert rules. Additionally, the inclusion of the link at the top to the Florida corporation "For the non-profit corporation of the same name, see The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc." is also obvious spam in further violation of Wikipedia rules. There is already a link to HOGD Inc in the appropriate section and this spam link has no place at the header of the article. Moreover, there is no justification for reverting the entire article merely to include spam and unverifiable sources.--Hogd2007 01:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Why not eliminate ALL refernece to modern groups entirely

There will always be inter group squabbeling as long as there is any reference to modern groups whatsoever. Indeed, in my opinionall reference to ALL modern Golden Dawn groups should be completely eliminated from Wikipidia on an equal basis as they are not encyclopedic. Moreover, they tend towards advertising and merely cause sporadic conflict. In the present instance, the conflict is caused the a legal settlement followed by one group (HOGD, Inc.) atempting to promote its view of history at the expense of its rivals. This nonsense will continue as well, as long as there is ANY reference whatsoever to ANY and ALL modern Golden Dawn groups. Moreover, despite numerous attempts at mediation and compromise, disputes always arise regarding which groups should be included as well as have links. The best solution is to keep an objective, historical article, however, without any mention whatsoever regarding modern groups. This will end these senseless conflicts once and for all. Protection of pages did not help. Compromises have only helped temporarily. Now that the lawsuit is over, HOGD, Inc. is sending agents to use Wikipedia as a means of advertisement and to attempt to misrepresent the truth to thier advantage. As long as this continues, there will be disputes erupting on a regular basis. I say, get the lot of them out of here and we will not have this nonsense any longer!--Hogd2007 02:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)