Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daimonin

Daimonin

Daimonin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Delete - No assertion of notability, no reliable secondary sources available for verification, Google search is only turning the usual download link sites. DarkSaber2k 18:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

DO NOT DELETE - please define "usual download link sites". Please explain why its bad. Can you please explain why you see only "usual download link sites" after entering what keyword?

Lets see - Daimonin is "Daimonin MMORPG" named. Lets do both keywords seperate - the name and the "class description" mmorpg

google.com english, keyword "daimonin", hits for first page:

• • www.daimonin.net
  • daimonin.sourceforge.net
  • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimonin
  • freshmeat.net/releases/254052
  • happypenguin.org/show?Daimonin
  • www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/news/gameId/119/showArticle/7811
  • http://www.getdeb.net/release.php?id=937
  • http://pc.gamezone.com/gamesell/p24118.htm

Lets see what we have: 2 references to their open source project (thats ok, or?), wikipedia, freshmeat (biggest open source reference), happypenguin (THE linux game reference), mmorpg.com (THE biggest mmorpg related game site, listed by mmorpg even before wikipedia), getdeb (UBUNTU linux release dep package reference... if you don't know what linux or a dep installation package is, please give me a note, i will explain it), and another gamesite with gamezone... also a PRETTY BIG one.

BTW: Can it be that you are using not an english search engine? There you will find for sure more download links, because they are not refering to english sites and documentation on purpose. Thats a language depending thing, but we are on the english wikipedia here, so lets use the english search engines. Only commercial mmorpg have the manpower to install a multi language enviroment for their games.

Second try, same as above but now we use "mmorpg"... You must give me right when i say this is a PRETTY HARD test. Now, you will see something funny:

- one the first page EVERY ENTRY has a direct reference to Daimonin!!! Even the planeshift game site has an entry in their forum (ok, this is more for curiosity).

- Daimonin is listed on page 2 AS SECOND OR THIRD MMORPG IN GOOGLES. Perhaps you will explain this in using some link forms and such? Just for the case you do - can you then go through the 2 list i gave and explain how its possible?

So... where are your usual download link sites here? Can you explain me why a.) your facts you give us as reason for a deletion don't fits this simple google research? Have you perhaps used a different search engine? Which one and which keyword please? And b.) you was not able to insert this 2 keywords in googles and comes to the same result?

I can't help me - what you mentioned here as reason for a deletion don't seems to be the truth!

Thats strange. Should you not, as someone who is acting independent and in good will, careful do a research and interesting to see whats going on?

Because some lines under this lines you even mention to us that the Daimonin forum links to this. So, on the one side, you can't or you don't want do a regular, good resarch and one the other side you go really deep in it. Browsing the forum means you also browsed a bit on the website, yes? Why you don't mention then the sourceforge project, the fact we are the 2nd biggest open source mmorpg (well, counting the 135.000 people who has subscribed for Daimonin and waiting for the 3d client - or perhaps they just like to describe to sides like Daimonin ... and no, you don't need to subscribe for playing).

Its also somewhat disgusting that you always are saying bad things about the daimonin open source project. Where is your positiv part? Please comment about:

• • - Daimonin is a well known, growing open source project
  • - Daimonin is one of the biggest open source mmorpg
  • - Daimonin is full playable, with a growing community
  • - Daimonin has rised other open source project (browse sourceforge)
  • -- Crossmagi (animated 2d graphics)
  • -- Gridarta (formerly daimonin editor, now own project as general game data editor)
  • -- Angelion (fork of Daimonin... small but young)
  • - Daimonin has 135.000 Subscribers (and you don't need to subscribe for playing)
  • - Daimonin has between 500-1000 dowloads per day (please count on not only sourceforge

but also all the usual download links)

After all this facts i gave - and i am just to tired to post here more links - be sure there are more i was only refering to 2 google pages, can you explain your sentence: "Another search (to be thorough) for 'Daimonin mmorpg' only turns up the same unreliable download linkfarms etc etc ad nauseu"

Can you understand that people who has spend years of work in coding and running this open source game will very angry when they read it? Can it be that YOU WANT that they get angry? Its just a feeling... But you must admit that someone GET this feeling when you compare my thread with yours, or?

Please forgive me when i was a bit "sarcastic" in this "rant". English is not my first language and i think counting my words above, i tried to give as many useful information as possible. But the difference between the reality and the reasons for deletion given are a bit big, or?

And sentence like "usual download link sites" and the term "linkfarms" are used normally to describe web spammers and illegal actions against search engines. YOU used them. Against an open source project which is just linked to the, yes, HOPEFULLY "usual" gamesites and shareware/freeware sites.

Because we want that people see something different as the "usual" chinese pay2play game and another "Runescape" or "Playworld", done with a visual basic editor. I hope you are aware that the wikipedia is born out of the some roots as Daimonin - as an open source project from and for the community, with ideals like freedom and open.

Notable or not, listed in wikipedia or not - dealing with Daimonin in the way you did, is just a shame and worth a troll but not a wikipedia editor. MT - 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to avoid wrong impressions: I am Michael Toennies, the project founder of Daimonin. Please excuse when my rant above there was pretty hard, sorry. This was not against single persons here - I just was hurt pretty much by terms like "linkfarms" and "usual download sites". These terms are related to illegal or at least unsocial behaviours in the internet.

We (we means our developers, around 30+ persons) put some effort in being noticed by big game sites. Why? Because normally you only get noticed there if you have money. Most games/mmorpgs at this kind of sites are deeply commercial. They usually don't accept non-commercial games. Open source as an option for a mmorpg, Second Life and other games going from commercial to open source (at last at the client side) are pretty new trends. That we as open source are accepted by many game sites is just as pretty new. There are only 1-2 other non-commercial games which are accepted.

So, please don't be hurt when you read my rant - it's at last my honest anger about being blamed of linkfarming.

Perhaps it's also the article itself. It was on our todo list to find someone to describe what daimonin really is: An open source project about how to make a game from coding to servers and community, how to design a make ... It's complex, notable and interesting.

The problem: That's not that easy... Some understanding of the project (not the game) is required for creating a good description about all its aspects...

Under the aspect that we are open source, community driven and independent, we are really open for real opinions. MT - 26 May 2007 (UTC)

NOTE: This AfD has been linked to from the official game forum here. DarkSaber2k 23:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game deletions. DarkSaber2k 18:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
• delete in the absence of sources to justify its notability. A LexisNexis search came up empty. — brighterorange (talk) 20:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Yahoo search came up with the article as the second link. --Whsitchy 21:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Do Not Delete

3rd Party Review sites, verifying existence, and releases. I will save this article, even if I have to cite Sources with old information about the game (which is currently in Beta 4 now)

• Cross, Keith (2007-05-22). "New Version Released". MMORPG.com. Retrieved 2007-05-25.

• Walker, Tom (Unknown). "Daimonin - Linux Game". about.com. Retrieved 2007-05-25. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

• Alias:, Lockergnome (2005-06-04). "Free MMORPG: Daimonin". Game Invasion / Lockergnome.com. Retrieved 2007-05-25.{{cite news}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)

• Unknown, Unknown (2004-07-10). "DAIMONIN BETA 3". gamezone.com. Retrieved 2007-05-25.

• Ludwick, Robert (2004-06-12). "Daimonin Into Beta 3". OMGN. Retrieved 2007-05-25.

Clan/Player Support Websites

• Aveus, Unknown (Unknown). "World of Daimonin". Aveus. Retrieved 2007-05-25. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

• Psy, Unknown (Unknown). "The Regiments of Daimonin Unit". Daimonin Unit. Retrieved 2007-05-25. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

• Dwarrior, Unknown (2006-02-27). "scytheswinger's Xanga Site". scytheswingers. Retrieved 2007-05-25.

I will get more when i have time to, but it should be known that the people who play Daimonin will probably fiercely defend their article in Wikipedia. Furthermore, i would like to mention that just because there is not adequate 3rd party citation does not mean an article should be deleted! these are GUIDELINES only, remember that! (i rescind my call for a vote as it doesn't matter evidently)

Also, this game is healthy, actively being developed, and is not under any circumstances in jeopardy of disappearing. Furthermore, As an encyclopedia, keeping articles which may no longer server a purpose to the everyday person, is part of what makes an encyclopedia. I am watching many games being threatened with deletion of their articles merely because someone doesn't think they have sufficient validation of existence in an encyclopedia, where, on the flip side, i believe i would come to an encyclopedia to learn more about a little known game with little citation. Your erasing history by constantly removing valid games (both past and present) from your articles. Its appalling. ThePlaneskeeper 22:57 PM, 25 May 2007 (UTC) — ThePlaneskeeper (talk • contribs) has made no other edits outside this topic.

• Comment- There are other websites and wikis useful for information about a game. Gameinfo is one of them. Also, Wikipedia is not a democracy. It does not matter how many new users come here to "vote," as actions taken here are reached by discussion and consensus. This page may look a lot like straw votes, but its not counted that way. You will have the most luck if you directly contest the points raised by the discussion and/or fix them. Good luck! -wizzard2k ^(C•T•D) 01:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - Lack of reliable non-trivial sources, thus failing WP:V ("Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources."). The above links don't look to be reliable (blogs/forums) or are trivial listings (couple sentence blurbs/user ratings). Wickethewok 03:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep since, while there are many others, I simply couldn't find a free software MMORPG with has more players than this one.-- Roc Vallès^Talk|Hist - 04:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, even after reviewing the above 'references':
  • MMORPG.com is a press release; trivial

EDIT: sorry, but here i get angry. The whole list here from this guy is, sorry, nonsense and a lie, that its necessity to mark this entry as what it is - just a selected list of links without any reference, documented in a way which only has one reason: To give a bad impression. Sorry, even the worst porn side has following Murphy at last one good entry, this list is not done to give information - its just a good tarned way for trolling.

Because: The mmorrpg.com entry, the biggest website about mmorpg, is a press release???? MMORPG.com is listed BEFORE wikipedia when it comes to search word "mmorpg" in googles, not because the do some search engine tricks but because they are more relevant to that keyword as wikipedia. Daimonin is there listed on their game list next to wow, daoc and all the big games: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/gameId/0 The entry is big and used since years: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/overview/gameID/119 and Daimonin has even an own forum part there (as full listed game) http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/forum/668

I think its clearly to see that this links are telling a whole different story! Please ignore this troll!

• • about.com - very brief overview; trivial
  • lockergnome - reasonable review, but don't know if it is a reliable source, will give benefit of doubt, but not enough on it's own.
  • gamezone.com - directory listing; trivial
  • OMGN.com - press release; trivial
  • freewebs.com/daimonin - fan page; not independent
  • freewebs.com/daimoninunit - clan/fan page; not independent
  • scytheswingers - er, some kind of clan page?; not independent

To the players of the game that will 'fiercely defend' this article, please note that Wikipedia is not a directory for every computer game under the sun; entries have to be notable and supported by independent non-trivial references, regardless of if you want to throw the guidelines out of the window or not. As mentioned above, there are plenty of game-specific wikis out there - Gamerwiki is another. Marasmusine 11:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

It's sad to get redirected to commercial (.com) sites.-- Roc Vallès^Talk|Hist - 11:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete due to lack of independent reliable sources. Stifle (talk) 13:43, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Another search (to be thorough) for 'Daimonin mmorpg' only turns up the same unreliable download linkfarms etc etc ad nauseum. DarkSaber2k 18:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep (I am a Daimonin dev so have a vested interest) Hm, notability seems a bit problematic. I understand the arguments that most of the above references are trivial and therefore do not satisfy notability, and I also understand that notability is not synonymous with popularity (I actually thanks Wikipedia for making that distinction!).

However, by the same token the notability criterion is making unrealistic demands on a non-commercial game in development. Such a game, eg Daimonin, will be largely 'under the radar'. In fact this is partly intentional as we don't want people to judge the game as a finished product while it is still in development.

Given this, that Daimonin has so many 'trivial' references is indicative of its notability. Of course this argument can be turned on its head and denounced as mere popularity. I won't pre-empt an argument about the two concepts.

But I will quote Wikipedia's own note on notability: '...it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception.'

So in that spirit perhaps notability can be satisfied by Googling MMORPG, the genre of game to which Daimonin belongs. As you will see, the Daimonin website is in the top ten hits and a search for Daimonin on any of the general MMORPG site will turn up a result. Daimonin is known and notable within the genre.

I realise this probably won't satisfy the clamour for 'non-trivial' sources but I refer you back to the point about non-commercial games in development. However, look at Wikipedia's very own entry on MMORPGs. Daimonin is referenced there. I have no idea who wrote it, but it has been around for some time and Googling 'daimonin academic' will turn up many hits which have taken and built on this article over the years. So it seems that deleting Daimonin's Wikipedia entry on the grounds of lack of notability and no reliable sources would be something of an own goal for Wikipedia. Or is Wikipedia inherently unreliable and are you going to followup by deleting all references to the game from your general MMORPG entry? Smackyuk 18:59, 26 May 2007 (UTC)