Talk:Terri Schiavo case

Archives

1. Archive 1: bit-by-bit changes
2. Archive 2: Michael estranged? Greer's affiliations
3. Archive 3: POV, Michael as cause?, external links
4. Archive 4: Baden's assessment, Euthanasia vs Right-to-die, POV, George Greer, why remove tube, Catholic-influenced decision?, condition wording, open adultery statute, $10M offer, feeling pain, potential abuse, first names, external link quality
5. Archive 5: NCDave conduct, link cleanup, biography request, S686 text, Sun Hudson, Ms./Mrs.
6. Archive 6: court decisions, legal implications, family members' character, wording of condition, pundits, S686 vote, Iraq, Sun Hudson
7. Archive 7: Ms. or Mrs., photo usage, initial collapse, insurance, feeding tube, pronunciation, legal costs
8. Archive 8: cause of collapse, Larry King transcript, Hammesfahr's credentials, Michael's role, nurse's affidavit, the Vatican, page protection
9. Archive 9: photo inclusion, alleged GOP memo, mentioning the money, bulimia as cause, pro-life/anti-abortion, role of the church
10. Archive 10: feeling pain, cleanup of additions, proposed addition of Lieberman analysis and vocalizations
11. Archive 11: poll on terminology ("pro-life" or other), including public opinion, wording on Mr. Schiavo's role, overlinking
12. Archive 12: sources for external links, date correction, "Culture of Life"/"Culture of Death", ABC poll, CAT Scans
13. Archive 13: authority to report condition, NPOV tag, pain speculation in lead?, Catholic category, edit warring, Reuters cite, brain scan, nurse Iyer affidavit
14. Archive 14: disability rights, Ms./Mrs. again, Hammesfahr update, POV issues, Michael an RN, poll on stating pain status
15. Archive 15: summarizing televised statements, LA Times, cremation?, weight, Mr. Schiavo's girlfriend, "life support", Dr. Maxfield, 1994 hospice care, parents sent out before death?, who is "family", relevance of early life, fork article?
16. Archive 16: still "current event"?, family in room, lead section, pronunciation, Last Rites, NYT, list of neurologists, TOC, copyediting, talk archiving and refactoring, "recent developments", affidavits
17. Archive 17: "fact"/"alleged"/"disputed"/"claimed", Martinez talking points memo, HTML entities, Dr. Cranford, Zogby poll
18. Archive 18: Mr. Schiavo living will?, GAL question, NPOV tag, article refactor, medical lodgings, wikithanks, cause of death, other articles
19. Archive 19: short or long intro?, splitting article, relevance test, URL test, Tropix sock puppet?, Perry Fine quote
20. Archive 20: Terri's weight discrepency, unusually stiff neck, length, web accessibility/definition of life-prolonging procedure, paraphrase v. quote, legal grist, re: Patsw rv., uncited statements?
21. Archive 21: Valentine's Day rewritten, splitting article, to Ann Heneghan, the NCDave situation, Natural means
22. Archive 22: NCdave troll?, NCdave vandalism / Prof. Ninja 3RR, Malpractice Suit, Reference links, Pecarek report, To Tropix, Consensus, Abuse, Factual Accuracy v. Neutral Point of View, issues of dispute
23. Archive 23: POV tag, lead section, Bernat Senate Testimony, NCdave editing from IP, "formal vs. journalistic" style, LRod please create an account, Changes by JYolkowski

Please Use This Talk Page Correctly

From Wikipedia:Wikiquette

• Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV). The Talk pages are not a place to debate which views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis.
• You can always take a discussion to e-mail or to your user page if it's not essential to the article.
• Sign and date your posts to talk pages (not articles!).

Please bear these items in mind when posting to this talk page. This article is controversial and somewhat high traffic. Mis/overuse of the talk page makes it difficult for this page to serve its intended purpose.
Fox1 11:43, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• And remember, when making assertions concerning Mrs. Schiavo herself and her condition. You (almost certainly) do (did) not know her personally, and you (almost certainly) have not examined her in person, and you (very likely -- tell us if it's otherwise :-) are not a physician. So you are working on second-hand, third-hand, or worse reportage. Temper your assertions accordingly.
  

--Baylink 19:23, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

intro

Can we agree on a couple of things for the intro?

First, can we keep it in sequential order? I don't know why people like to mention the last two weeks of her life, but it's stupid to mention that, out of sequence, and then jump back to the previous 14 years leading up to it.

Second, do we HAVE to say "Terri was PVS." ??? I mean, I wrote a version that states the facts of the overwhelming diagnosis in that favor, the court rulings that affirm it, and the two doctors who said she was MCS. That is all factual, isn't it? It represents the truth, doesn't it?

Basically, I'm sick of fighting off the vandals and morons like NCdave who take out "Terri was PVS" and replace it with utter nonsense about how a conspiracy of doctors, the courts, the police, and her husband all conspired to get her diagnosed as PVS when she was really MCS. And I was hoping by avoiding saying the sentence "Terri was PVS" it would keep the flat-earthers away from the page.

If folks can't agree on this and insist on saying "Terri was PVS" then you might as well revert the intro to what it was before I did a complete re-edit of it yesterday. My version is bulkier and there is no sense in taking on all that extra weight dancing around not saying "Terri was PVS" but listing the overwhelming evidence, if you're just going to friggen modify it to say "Terri was PVS" anyway.

Do people get my drift here? If you're going to say the three words "Terri was PVS" then the list of overwhelming evidence in the intro is pointless when people can read it later. The idea was instead to list the overwhelming evidence, including the minority of evidence that disputes it, and let the reader decide. If you can't handle this and insist on the three words "terri was PVS" being in the intro, then revert the whole intro to the way it was before I touched it yesterday.

FuelWagon 21:47, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

The only thing is, the statement "In every case and in every appeal, the courts ruled that Terri was in a PVS" isn't quite accurate. As I understand it, one court ruled at trial that she was in a PVS and that judgement was upheld by all of the other courts. That's a subtle but important legal distinction. If you could clarify that it would help.

That the ruling was made and affirmed makes the diagnosis a matter of judicial fact and is not only ipso facto NPOV but refutes a priori all challenges by others that she was MCS or whatever else someone wants to think. If NCdave could get his arms around that irrefutable legal fact (despite that he disagrees with it) a lot of his rewriting would be unnecessary. No one can legitimately claim, as a matter of fact, that she wasn't in a PVS. The courts have ruled that she was--period.

"Schiavo" vs. "Terri"

Why were all the references to Terri Schiavo in this article changed from "Schiavo" to "Terri"? Why is Terri Schiavo different from every other human being with an article in Wikipedia? Wikipedia style is to use the subject's last name on second and later references. In the case of any ambiguity, a title can be used and, in those cases (in sentences in which both Michael and Terri Schiavo are both mentioned, for example), I also wouldn't have an objection to using "Terri" for clarity's sake. But in parts of the article where it's absolutely clear which Schiavo is being referred to: why are we now using "Terri"? That goes utterly against Wikipedia style, and is arguably a political and POV statement - as hardcore fundementalists evidently don't like seeing her husband's name (inventing "Schindler-Schiavo" in some cases, which she evidently never used. I can find sources for this usage on the web, if people haven't already seen it) and in fact they generally always referred to her just as "Terri" in any media discussions of the case.

Terri Schiavo is not a unique human being in terms of Wikipedia policy. There is no possible justification for deciding that she should be called by her first name in unambigious references, while every other person about whom there is a Wikipedia article is called by their last name. If someone thinks they have a justification, please let us in on the secret. Moncrief 01:02, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

This was discussed extensively in Archive 14 & Archive 23. The MoS states it's position as a suggestion. Mrs. Schiavo's case is certainly (& unfourtunately) not unique. However, with the numerous references to various Schiavos, the decision was made to use Informal Style to make the article easier to read, and to offend as few people as possible. Other alternatives may include Journalistic Style (the Wikipedia default) or Formal. If you are dissatisfied with Informal Sytle you may wish to change the references to Formal Style, although this will require reworking a number of sentences and references. Since Mrs. Schiavo is recently deceased, I have argued that Journalistic Style ("Schiavo") is inappropriate. It also makes the article much more difficult to follow. With the passage of time, a switch to Formal, or even Journalistic, Style may be appropriate. For now, the issue(s) is raw enough to warrant compassionate handling.--ghost 16:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Since Mrs. Schiavo is recently deceased, I have argued that Journalistic Style ("Schiavo") is inappropriate.

In other words, you're saying that you believe that journalists don't use "journalistic style" when writing about dead people? That all Wikipedia articles about dead people shouldn't use "journalistic style" (i.e., Wikipedia policy)? I mean, if your invented "informal style" is to apply to one person who is dead, why doesn't it apply to all people who are dead? You're making up rules to fit this one article. Why? Moncrief 18:39, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I am saying it's up to us. And that myself and others have indicated a preference to something other than Journalistic Style. Outside the U.S., journalists typically use Formal Style to refer to the recently deceased. Informal Style is a recognized style that uses someone's first name in preference to their surname. I would recommend the links onArchive 23or try the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Rather than take offense, rewrite the article in Formal Style. BTW, in Archive 14 the majority vote was for Mrs. over Ms. Something I continue to disagree with, but it's a community project after all.--ghost 19:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I have read the archive and you don't seem to understand something that others tried to explain to you a number of times: the Ms. vs. Mrs. vote was only for ambigious references to Terri Schiavo, where it wasn't already clear which Schiavo was being referred to. At the time of that vote, there was no consensus either to change every reference from "Schiavo" to "Terri" nor to change every reference from "Schiavo" to either "Ms. Schiavo" or "Mrs. Schiavo" - ONLY the ambigious ones. Why is it so important to you that she be called "Terri" in all the unambigious references? What is about her that necessitates such an "informal style" and not for other articles about recently-dead people on Wikipedia? Why don't you want to call Saul Bellow "Saul" throughout his article or Susan Sontag "Susan" througout hers? (Do you? If so, why aren't you over there arguing this point). I suspect the answer has something to do with the POV you've brought to this article and don't seem to be able to check at the door. Moncrief 20:42, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I will freely admit to having a POV. As do you, and everyone else. Wikipedia welcomes that. Let me state, for the record, that I was not advocating use of Informal Style. I was advocating that we switch to Formal. Informal was chosen to seek a middle ground. I didn't make those changes to this page.

As to your examples, they were both entertainers and/or celebrities for which the Journalistic "Sontag" is entirely appropriate, since they chose their notoriety. They were also not (to my knowledge) wrapped up in messy familial legal proceedings that were referenced repeatedly in their articles. As to the ambiguous references, look back a few weeks to the time before the style was changed. The article was a mess using all three styles at various places. The suggestions in Archive 14 hadn't been followed at all. As to my motivation...Yes, I feel that Mrs. Schiavo's memory should be treated with the upmost respect. I feel Formal Style conveys that, as does Informal, and that Journalistic does not.

That said, you asked what the reasoning was. I told you why others changed it. You go after me. Hello?--ghost 22:22, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Wait a second? Why should Terri Schaivo's memory " be treated with the upmost respect" any more than any other dead person's memory? That is such a blantantly POV statement I don't know where to begin. It's also POV for you to say that Informal style, i.e. calling someone by their first name, conveys respect. Actually, it generally conveys the opposite: familiarity, which isn't anything like respect. It's an invention of YOUR mind that people who "choose their noteriety" should be referred to in one style and that others, whose "memories deserve [more... how else should I say it? You've quantified it by saying sh. deserves a certain type of respect that others don't] respect," should be referred to an entirely different way. That's a total self-created belief system, and nothing to do with Wikipedia policy. I also didn't say you couldn't have a POV. I said I think you have trouble keeping that POV in check when you hit Edit. How else to explain this idea that Terri Schiavo "deserves" the "utmost respect" that others evidently don't deserve, and that we should refer to her in a unique way because of it. Moncrief 22:31, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, that fact that I have a POV does not make me any more or less empowered in this matter. And, as you've ignored, I have made quite an effort to keep my POV here, rather than in the article. The Talk section is were POV should be welcomed, not flamed. I agree that Informal is less respectful than Formal. I told you, it was someone else's compromise. If you don't like it, fix it. As to "people of noteriety", this guideline is in every Manual of Style I've been able to find via the Web, and some that I've checked offline, including the Chicago MoS. Finally, I don't think Mrs. Schiavo should receive singular treatment. In fact, I spent alot of effort on the Village Pump and the MoS Talk page trying to get a clarification on if the editors of the article have the right to choose the style. We do. Every person, imo, deserves to be treated with respect upon death. Mrs. Schiavo is unusual in this regard because the events around became famous, not because she chose to be that way. Thus, I feel she deserves the respect accorded to every private person in Formal Style. Her, and you, and me.--ghost 23:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo or just Theresa Marie Schiavo?

In the very first sentence of the article and in the infobox, it has her name listed as "Theresa Marie Schiavo". Would it be more appropriate to include her maiden name or just leave it as it is? I would include her maiden name, but considering this is a very controversial article and that I'm also rather new, I wanted to get people's opinions first. Thanks! Columbia 05:49, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that "Theresa Marie Schiavo, née Schindler" would be technically accurate, if not pedantic, and "Theresa Marie (Schindler) Schiavo" as is seen in high school reunion documents, would also suffice.

The hyphenated version used by some advocates is grossly POV and would probably offend her were she around to opine about it. Such a use is quite unconventional and represents a specific personal statement by a woman and is not one conferred by someone else. I'm unaware of any evidence that she ever used it.

RickK deleted quotations to the law -an inappropriate cencure.

After I figured out how to use this technically difficult editing process, I notice that the citations to the law I posted -and linked -were deleted.

NickK writes on a discussion page "Your edits to the Terri Schiavo article are problematic. Your personal opinion as to her treatment and the legality of her even being placed in a hospice have no place in the article. RickK 06:22, May 9, 2005 (UTC)"

Maby I was a little "biased" by stating that Greer violated the law (as a statement of fact), but that is in keeping with the intro in which it states that Terri "spent the last 15 years of her life in a persistent vegetative state (PVS)." Both her PVS classification *and* her "terminal" classification (which allowed her to be placed in hospice care) are disputed, and may not belong here as de facto statements.

In my opinion, Nick was out of line by carte blanche deleting the who section in his May 09 edits. He also deleted links to pages on The Register, at which I am the editor in chief ("my pages," so to speak). This may seem appropriate if I am promoting myself, but review those pages and note that these are in fact resources, particularly the "Court Cases" compilation -good resources no less than Abstract Appeal's slanted viewpoint that the judges never violated some laws. (Abstract Appeal is usually pretty good, but once in a while gets a little "slanted" or biased.)

What is the consensus of the community regarding these two points.

1) How the view points are displayed: Should the "PVS" classification really be shown as "She's in PVS?" ~ Or, instead, should it not be listed as "The trial court found Terri in PVS, and all the higher courts upheld this definition"?

2) Should NickK be permitted to willy nilly delete my links to the law? (If you disagree with him, you may revert back, as I am sometimes too busy.)

By allowing people like Nick to delete opposing points of view, Wiki becomes biased, but I am open to the idea of changing the language in my edits from a statement of fact to say, instead, that "many feel that Greer broke the following laws..." with an explanation.--Gordon Wayne WattsGordon Wayne Watts, Lakeland, FL, USAW 03:22, May 9, 2005 (EST)

Oops~ I was trying to place this comment in the little "archive" section at the top, not take up half a page, or something, but I raise two important concept points that need to be mulled on: I will leave this post and wait for replies.

Before you answer, keep in mind that the community will not accept some disputed things listed as facts and others listed as "some peoples' opinions" ~ maybe it would be best to state most or all of the points as differing points of view, even if they're fact. Secondly, removing brief cites to the law is arbitrary and heavy-handed. I challange anyone anywhere to disagree with that assessment. (Removal of links to my web paper, The Register, is not as serious as deletion of a cite to a relevent law, but listing of "my pages" was still a relevent link that fit in with the othetr links, and I would hope that my colleagues would see fit to support linking them, as much as you might want to link a relevent site you've created or found somewhere.)--Gordon W. WattsGordon Wayne Watts, Lakeland, FL, USAW 03:28, May 9, 2005 (EST)

Wikipedia has strict guidelines against vanity. If your pages are indeed relevant, and unbiased, then someone else will add it.

And no, trying to add it with an anonymous IP or a single-post sockpuppet does not count.--Fangz 16:02, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Gordon, it's unfortunate that you feel Wiki is awkward. It's better than some others. Oh, and you're thoughts will be archived in due time. I have deleted some of your links prior to today with reget and only following careful review. As to your contention that Judge Greer violated the law, I dispute it and deem it inappropriate on several levels:

• • Most of the laws in question are local or state, and were ruled in violation of the Florida or US Constitutions
  • Judge Greer's decisions in these matters were upheld by the Appellate, Florida, US District & US Supreme Courts
  • The plaintiffs in the effected cases exhausted their appeals, or neglected to pursue the issue

Thus, the issue of Judge Greer's alleged infractions is moot and heresay. At best, one could contend that, "...it is alleged...". To do otherwise is unwise, incorrect and potentially libelous. If you wish to do so in your paper, so be it. It's inappropriate here. As to your questions: 1) the diagnosis issue was discussed at length in the Archives with the concensus being that the article should use what was upheld in the various appeals. 2)Absolutely. I am too busy to undo most of your work. Or NCDave's, or FuelWagon's. This is the strength and weakness of Wikipedia & any opensource project. It is the sum of you and me and 1000 other contributors.--ghost 17:27, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

GHOST, thank you for replying. I am getting the hang of it, but let me point out that only ONE law was ruled unconstitutional -the Terri's Law that was "hastily passed" back in 2003. All the others were NOT. (Show me one other law that was ruled unconstitutional...)

The fact that Greer's decisions were upheld is moot for two reasons:

• • "Two (or 3 or 4...) wrongs don't make a right, even if those two ( or 3 or 103) wrongs are committed by different judges.
  • The law is the law, and the judges rulings were in conflict with the varios laws.
  • Your 2nd and 3rd points are the same, that the matters were upheld on appeal, and that appeals were exhausted. You are right here, but the rulings (and appeals) violated the law.

Where were you when your civics class covered American jurisprudence? The judiciary interprets the laws. The checks and balances in place for potential judicial error is the appeals system. When a judge rules a fact and it is affirmed on appeal, it becomes the law of the land. So, yes, two (or 3 or 4...) rulings do make a right in this country.

If, as you assert, Judge Greer's rulings were in conflict with various laws, how do you explain that they were upheld on appeal, multiple times, by various courts? There are only two possible explanations: all of the other judges and courts engaged in a vast conspiracy to subvert the statutes or you are dead wrong in your assertion. There's no third choice.

Just because you (or NCdave) don't like a judge's ruling doesn't mean the judge was wrong (or acted illegaly).

Are you a lawyer? I'm guessing you're not, particularly based on your point #2 above (not to mention some of the spelling and grammar I see on your blog). If that's the case, perhaps you should consult one to see just what the incidence of unchecked judicial error is in our system. That's what you're saying when you assert that Greer, the 2nd CoA, the FL Supreme Court, the Federal Court, and the U.S. Supreme Court not only violated the law, but failed to reverse or at least remand for correction the error. Remember, an opinion different from yours not only isn't illegal, it's probably not even wrong.

Your point that my allegations are hearsay is a good point, and, like I said, I will make that correction in my presentation --even IF I am right, I probably won't present it as fact but merely one theory.

FANGZ, your comment is not a bad idea, but sometimes a person has to toot his own horn. After all, you didn't wait for someone to post for you --you posted for yourself. Links to my pages truly belong with the other pages, because that section is for biased commentary, and all the pages listed there fit. Links to my court cases page belong also, as this is merely a compilation of many court cases, some of them mine --with little or no commentary. However, I will probably not post links to my webpages in their places at this time. Since I have not corrected the slight bias that I introduced when I posted certain things as fact, I do not deserve to post my links.

FUEL WAGON made some good comments on that subject above, when he suggested no one say Terri was PVS unless they offer documentation --and implied that it might not be a good idea at all. (I got the feeling he way suggesting we merely post the points of view as "points of view," not as fact.) His suggestions have merit, and it is with regret that I tore into his comments, but I answered him here all the same:

Whoah there. Don't drag me into this out of context. I tried rewriting the intro to avoid saying "Terri was PVS" simply because flat-earthers like you can't seem to get it into your thick skull that she was PVS and I'd rather morons who think they're a lawyer/neurologist stop vandalizing the friggen page. Every day or two some knucklehead comes in and whines "you can't say she is PVS because this is disputed." Well, that's not how it works. Flat earthers dispute the earth is round, but their fucking morons. Same goes for the ignoramousus who can't seem to get that Terri was PVS and a moron with a dispute doesn't change that fact. FuelWagon 22:13, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:GordonWattsDotCom

Although he was a butt-H*le here, I think I will survive, and in absentia I will accept his apology if he feels he was wrong there.

Wrong?!?!? Hell no. You tried justifying putting links to your personal website on the main Terri Schiavo article and that is complete horseshit. I checked out your site and it is complete POV conspiracy theories, through and through. Oh, and if you insist on writing massive tomes on the talk page that span many many paragraphs, you might want to consider signing each paragraph so the rest of us can figure out where your stuff ends and where someone's reply begins. FuelWagon 22:13, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

So? A lot of websites are biased, like for example, the Terri's Fight and Terri's blogs, and such. So, why aren't you deleting those websites? Afraid you'd get disciplined and banned, blocked, etc.? In all truth, my websites are less biased than the Terri's Fight, because I am not an immediate family member of Terris Schiavo, and thus have some objectivity, even if I agree with some of their views. QUESTION: Why don't you delete them, if you're so all over it for deleting biased links, which those are? (Another question that you can't and won't answer. Maybe you should take a deap breath and go out for a snack or something... go fuel up, Wagon.) --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 01:34, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Hey, knucklehead, get your story straight. Someone ELSE deleted your biased, vanity links, not me. you whined about it on the talk page. And I posted a reply saying they deserved to be deleted. go bitch and whine to THEM about deleting links and whether they're afraid of being banned. why don't you go out for a snack and pay attention to who you're bad mouthing. FuelWagon 04:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Gordon Wayne Watts, Lakeland, FL, USA 15:29, May 9, 2005 (EST)

Show me one other law that was ruled unconstitutional... *picks up gauntlet*

Dismissal of petition to invoke all writs, by the Florida Supreme Court in reference to the Congressional subpoenas

Refusal to overturn ruling against retrial en blanc of the Palm Sunday Compromise by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals

Bush v. Schiavo, by the Florida Supreme Court in reference to Gov. Bush's authority

Need I go on? The supreme law of the land is the U.S. Constitution (last time I checked). This is interperted by the judiciary, not the legislative or executive branches. Thus, a legislative or executive body can enact a law that the sky is green. It is then green until it is ruled upon in court. Then is becomes what the courts rule it to be. Therefore, since the courts have ruled unanimously in favor of Judge Greer's decisions, he never broke the law. Because said laws were never valid to begin with. Welcome to U.S. Law 101. Have a nice day.--ghost 22:00, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

That is a very valient attempt, and you make some good points, namely that the courts more or less unanimously disagreed with the other two branches and the "Save Terri" side. However, as unfortunate (and wrong) as I think that was, I don't dispute that it actually happened. Nonetheless, ghost, please notice that the things the courts ruled on were all decisions in ~~interpreting~~ the law (except that one case of Terri's Law) -- all the laws that were used by both sides were ALL accepted as valid State and Federal Laws...all, that is, except the Terri's Law.

Now, building on the premise that both sides accepted all the laws as valid (e.g., constitutional), then we have a valid basis for me to post laws as "fact," which are unbiased and objective. Let me re-iterate and conclude: NONE of the laws -except the Terri's Law -were overturned as invalid / unconstitutional and thus cancelled out except the "state" Terri's Law passed in 2003. None were even questioned, except that one and the "Federal" Terri's Law, the "federal habeas review" law --but, even in that case, GHOST, we see that the courts never ruled that law unconstitutional --and CERTAINLY they NEVER "overruled" as unconstitutional this law here: Florida Law 825.102(3) >2004->Ch0825->Section%20102#0825.102 , which, if you read real closely, you'll see was violated by Greer. He denied not only feeding tubes, but also food, and remember that chapter 825 felony law makes NO excpetions for perople if they're "PVS," "terminal," or even if it's "their wishes," or even I fthe've got eating difficulties. (They refused to test Terri in recent times; what were they trying to hide, I wonder?)

what were they trying to hide, I wonder? OK, that does it. You're now in my "crackpot conspiracy theorist" list. Terri couldn't swallow. She was PVS. If Terri was consciously aware, responding to voices, and perfectly capable of swallowing, (she even snuck out to play tennis when no one was watching), the conspiracy required to pull it off for so many years and so many doctors and so many court cases is outrageous. I can only conclude you have a weak grasp on reality and a strong grasp on whatever dogma you cling to. Go play with your bible and stop trying to hang galileo. FuelWagon 23:16, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

OK, that does it. You're now in my "crackpot conspiracy theorist" list. You didn't answer my question; Why didn't they test Terri to see if she really could eat or drink, FUEL WAGON? You simply stated your conclusion, the thing I asked you to prove, and then you used that unproved and unproven conclusion as proof. Can someone say "circular longic," or maybe "begging the question."

see previous post about "unfalsifibility" and conspiracy theories. See also "burden of proof" with regards to the person making the assertion. sorry, no "circular logic" or "begging the question" on my part, just pointing out your unfalsifiable, totally unproven, logical fallacy. FuelWagon 04:22, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

You know, you really seemed normal, but you're busting loose in rabid slobbering, of late. Let me tell you that if you really had an argument, you'd use it, not just make fun of the other side and sling names like crackpot.

Ok, let me help you out here: You know why they didn't test Terri? Well, for one, she might be able to eat and drink a little, and this would embarrass the "good judge" who had, for so many years, denied her testing, therapy, rehab, etc.

For another, if she talked, testimony of spousal abuse might ensue, and don't give me that "PVS" lame excuse: Even IF she wasn't able to talk, she might have been able to point to a keyboard, kind of like this kid I saw in Believer's Fellowship [1], where I went to church yesterday morning. This fellow sort of flopped around like Terri Schiavo did when she was alive, but when I asked him his name, he pointed out on a keyboard on his wheelchair "W-I-L-L," and thus we wonder if Terri could've done similar. Let me tell you, Mike Schiavo would have NO motive for wanting her to stay silent and be denied speech therapy --unless he beat her. (Mind you, I'm not accusing him; I don't know his motives ~ maybe he's just weird or crazy, lol.)

if she talked, testimony of spousal abuse might ensue And monkeys might fly out your butt. And the world might be flat. and elvis might be alive. and you might be a twit. (mind you, I'm not calling you a twit, I'm just saying it might be true.)

The Great Fuel Wagon wouldn't answer my question because all roads lead to my answer above. Better fuel up a little more before trying this lame logic. (Hint: Simply avoiding a question is not the right way to win converts to your point of view.) BOTTOM LINE: We have no busniess debating the views, as this page itself says: "Please Use This Talk Page Correctly...The Talk pages are not a place to debate which views are right or wrong or better." We should simply accept that others views differ and be glad that we are able to contribute to the chronicle of the history in an unbiased way, and not feel the need to name call if we want to disagree with some point of view. I didn't even disagree with you; I simply asked why she would be denied examination if the courts had nothing to hide; maybe it was your guilty conscience that provoked you? "Remember, an opinion different from yours not only isn't illegal, it's probably not even wrong," as you said above --is still true for all of us, including you. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 01:22, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

What is your problem? I didn't answer your question because what are they trying to hide? is an assinine conspiracy theory that is UNFALSIFIABLE. don't get all logical falacy on me when you're asking me to disprove something that is unfalsifiable. "prove to me they don't have something to hide." Sorry. Logic don't work that way. You make the assertion that they're up to something, then you gotta supply the evidence to prove it. i.e. wikipedia cannot say Greer and Michael are in conspiracy unless you can prove it. She was denied swallowing tests because she had already had several and failed and because there was nothing to show that VitalStim would work on a PVS patient. No guilty conscious here. just someone who refuses to swallow your conspiracy theory. FuelWagon 04:15, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

You can read the law and my post her and come to your own conclusions, but you see what I'm saying... (PS: I wasn't using CAPITOL letters to yell, only bold face stuff, and I don't know the bold face or underline funtion yet; maybe next time.)--Gordon Wayne Watts, Lakeland, FL, USA 18:31, May 9, 2005 (EST)

It's Rick, by the way.  :) Gordon, thanks for remaining civil, a lot of people don't when their personal opinions are challenged. See FuelGauge above. I deleted the links to your page because they are vanity links, which are deprecated on Wikipedia, and they don't add anything new to the argument. I also deleted your interpretations of Florida law because, as said, they were your personal interpretations, and violations of the Wikipedia policy of Neutral point of view. If you want to point to a legal expert who supports your contentions, then by all means, add them in a neutral style. But they're moot, since all of the legal appeals decided that your points are not valid in Florida or federal law, so they also don't really mean much in the whole scheme of things. So far as I know, none of your interpreations were argued before the courts, and even if they were, the courts ruled otherwise. RickK 22:42, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

Um, Gordon, I think you need to hit the caselaw links. In the second, re:Palm Sunday Compromise, the 11th Circuit actually states that the Compromise was unconstitutional. There's your other case. As if that wasn't enough, the other rulings state violation of Seperation of Powers, which is unconstitutional. In fact, although only two rulings use the word, every other ruling points to conflicts with either the Florida or U.S. Constitution. But I digress. You are incorrect in your fundemental premise that, "all the laws that were used by both sides were ALL accepted as valid State and Federal Laws". Once they were ruled against, these sections of these laws no longer applyied to the case. Thus, for Judge Greer, it became No Harm, No Foul. You are welcome to disagree. Many of us do. That is irrelevant. We CANNOT state as fact that Judge Greer, or anyone else, committed a crime for which he (or they) has not been found guilty. Much less, even indited on.--ghost 23:07, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

GHOST, the other Terri's Law may HAVE been overturned; I don't recall, but my point being that the other laws were not --even IF they were not applied to this case. Your inuendo that lack of indictment is proof Greer is innocent is no less false than a claim that the Dred Scot judges were innocent bacause they weren't charged with high crimes in their ruling that Blacks were slaves. (They were not charged, but they WERE guilty, and their ruling led to the Civil War.)

In Dred Scott v. John Sanford, a MAJORITY of the HIGHEST court in the land, not to long ago held that "[T]he negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his benefit." Chief Justice Roger B. Taney, writing for the Court. Dred Scott v. John F. Sanford 15 L.Ed. 691; 19 How. 393; 60 US 393 at 407.(US 1857)).

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22negro+might+justly+and+lawfully+be+reduced+to+slavery%22

http://msxml.excite.com/info.xcite/search/web/%2522negro%2Bmight%2Bjustly%2Band%2Blawfully%2Bbe%2Breduced%2Bto%2Bslavery%2522

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22negro+might+justly+and+lawfully+be+reduced+to+slavery%22&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8

RICK, I was the first person anywhere to do a habeas or QUO WARRANTO, and many of my arguments or tactics WERE in fact borrowed by others like Pat Anderson, and possibly David Gibbs, who definitely compied some of my legal moves, as I recall when I was in the Tampa court and heard him argue before Wittemore.

“Gordon, thanks for remaining civil” No problem Rick. Now, you talk that "legal expert" language, eh?

At: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FuelWagon I claim to be the foremost legal expert. Let me quote from his page:

OPEN QUOTES I was the most successful litigant on the "losing" side, the side that lost in court. Compare how well I did in court with the lame governor, and ignore, for a moment (if you could) that he got lots of press, and I didn't.

Now, just why do you think that I scored better than the Gov.: http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/clerk/disposition/2004/10/04-925reh.pdf who lost 7-0 on rehearing motion, when I lost here: http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/clerk/disposition/2005/2/03-2420reh.pdf in the SAME case 4-3, trying to save Terri? (He got a 4-3 decision to amend his petition, but that was minor; when we both tried to get rehearing, I was more successful, and NO ONE else got a higher percentage of panel votes in attempts to dave Terri: My 4-3 loss represented about 42 or 43% of my panel. You do the math,...) "Things that make you go 'hmm...'." CLOSE QUOTES (My case was SC03-2320, Bush's case was SC04-925; I probably did better because he asked that new law be written, whereas I asked that enforcement of current law be had, where current state laws on abuse were pretty good.)

However, RICK, it is perfectly ok to post the fact that some people dispute, for example, a disgnosis of PVS, or that some people felt hospice wasn't appropriate, and it's furthermore OK list some relevent law. (So long as both interpretations are mentioned, and the outcome is mentioned, it's OK; In fact, sometimes there may be 3 or 4 possible theories as to what happened.) That's merely reporting the events as they happened. The fact I might add a cite to a law is actually pretty mandatory, and certainly welcomed.

Earlier, FUEL WAGON said: "Second, do we HAVE to say "Terri was PVS." ??? I mean, I wrote a version that states the facts of the overwhelming diagnosis in that favor" 172.138.142.29 I had initially interpreted that to mean that he didn't want people to say she was PVS unless they offered proof. Actually, I think he meant that they didn't NEED to say she was PVS because the proof was supposedly overwhelming.

While I initially may have misinterpreted him, his point was a good one: Doon't list conclusions, just facts.

However, I thought that the standard was to go ahead and list something as a fact if you could back it up, which ticked off the community... oops!

Now that I've decided to list the various alternatives, and list them as theories, WIKI can get a true encyclopaedic description of various viewpoints, so I don't see why that approach can't be taken. (When I quote a law that has been accepted as OK by all sides, I will list it as "fact." When I list an interpretation, I will list it as a theory.)

After all, even though we know that the earth is NOT flat and that Jews are NOT inferior, I'm sure various encyclopedias have entries that chronicle the fact that these viewpoints were held by some people, and offering some of their arguments.

Does this approach not have merit? Thx for the collective review to my colleagues. --Gordon Wayne Watts, Lakeland, FL, USA 19:13, May 9, 2005 (EST)

Wagon Fuel is creating lots of discussion in the category above.

In the category above, it is hard to tell, but Wagon Fuel never tells us why he's deleting the Gordon Watts links (that are admitedly somewhat biased) and not deleting the Terri's Fight / Terri's Blogs, etc.,. websites which (by their very name) are real biased.

He also never tells us why the Judge was so adament on refusing to test Terri Schiavo for an ability to eat or drink or get speech therapy or physical rehabilitation, etc.

I'm making this new category because he dialogue above is so convaluted and hard to follow, so here's the heads up. --GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 01:48, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear that the Gordon Watts link is a vanity link, which are generally discouraged. As for the second one, there's a lot of speculation inherent in that, which is probably a bad idea unless it's comprehensively cited. Furthermore, if the judge agreed with the PVS diagnosis, then by definition she can't eat, drink, etc. so personally I don't see why we need to say anything about it. JYolkowski // talk 02:01, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Which link? I have several, some of them "commentary and advocacy," placed in the right categories, and some of them flat hard facts and court docs. Maybe you are a vanity link, but let me assure you that listing ones own website is NOT forbidden, so long as the person has contributed something. I did better than Jeb: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/2/prweb212613.htm ...so I guess this qualifies me -whether or not I got lots of press on it. Look at the vanity page from WIKI: "An article should not be dismissed as "vanity" simply because the subject is not famous. There is presently no consensus about what degree of recognition is required for a page to be included in Wikipedia (although consensus exists regarding particular kinds of article, for instance see WP:MUSIC). Lack of fame is not the same as vanity...Furthermore, an article is not "vanity" simply because it was written by its subject. Articles about existing books, movies, games, and businesses are not "vanity" so long as the content is kept to salient material and not overtly promotional."

Ok, that being said, here are comments I made to someone who claims to be neutral, but may not be, and I make them here to save them in case some nut deletes them... Compilations

COMMENTS: --NEUTRALITY, you edited out the web pages linking court documents; That was not very neutral. You also did not leave a comment about it. Do me two favors: #1 either leave a comments explaining why Conigliaro's page of documents remains, while you deleted mine, and don't give me that "biased" stuff: All the pages are biaed, including Conigliaro's because he makes the biased claims, in a recent Sp Times article, in which Conigliaro said that judge Greer followed the law: http://sptimes.com/2005/04/30/Tampabay/Lawyer_shares_lessons.shtml #2 FAVOR: Please tell me how I can include a comment when I edit something. JUST TO GET YOU ATTENTION NEUTRALITY, I will repost the court doc links, and expect an answer pronto. These pages are court documents, and let me remind you that I got further than both Conigliaro and Bush combined, in my near win in court: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/2/prweb212613.htm "Florida Supreme Court splits 4-3 on surprise last-minute filing in Terri Schiavo Case," so I contributed a little more than them or you, and thus I and my court doc web pages are a part of history, jsut as is Conigliaro, Bush, Gibbs, etc. GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida Now, don't start a Wiki war: You know I am right and that you have no valid complaint; You're just picking on me because I'm less well known than the former, and that is not a valid reason to pick on me. The pages are documents, not advocacy; LEAVE THEM ALONE!

• The Register's Geo mirror compliation (legal documents relating to the Schiavo case)
• The Register's Hometown mirror compliation (legal documents relating to the Schiavo case)

Advocacy and commentary

COMMENTS: This is advocacy, and it IS expected that these pages will be biased and NOT objective, so please do not go deleting them willy nilly. If you delete a page for being BIASED ADVOCACY, then please wait until a COMMENTARY ADVOCACY page appears as something it's not!!

• Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation
• Abstract Appeal
• Blogs For Terri
• The Empire Journal
• The Register Geo mirror
• The Register Hometown mirror
• End-of-Life Choices
• Hospice Patients Alliance
• Compassion in Dying, End of Life Choices
• Links and Dialogue re Schiavo by Reason McLucus & Jalexson

--GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 02:53, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Swallowing Tests

It is clear from some of the dialogue above and in the archives that the Flat Earthers have not even read relevant materials. If you would only read the Wolfson report you would see that Terri had swallowing tests on three different occasions; 1991, '92, and '93. What did you think recent tests were going to show; that after twelve years in whatever state you want to call it that she had regained her ability to swallow when more recent CT scans had shown increased cortex atrophy? Please, do yourself and the rest of us a favor and go read the report. Or is Wolfson part of your grand conspiracy?

Well, hello, person who doesn't sign your name! If swallowing tests were such a bad idea, then why did Wolfson reccomend that Terri have swallowing tests performed in his GAL report? Maybe you should go back there and do your homework.

(condescending and ironic lecture snipped)

--GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:01, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Again, read the report. Wolfson was trying to forge common ground between Schiavo and the Schindlers. Getting them to agree to swallowing tests was part of that mission. Schiavo was convinced from the '91, '92, '93 tests and didn't see the necessity of confirming what had already been confirmed--three times. You and others seem to need four. The Schindlers were hanging their hat on any scrap of hope they could find; witness the 4½ minutes of video out of four+ hours they released. Person who doesn't sign his (or her) name. (Get over it.)

Would someone please tell me how I can place comments in the history page to explain why I changed what I change? For example, Moncreif graciously fixed a spelling error where I said "lot's" instead of "lots" --and he made a comment about it being an embarrassing error in the history page. How'd he do that, somebody...?

--GordonWattsDotCom_In_Florida 03:06, 10 May 2005 (UTC) (Which is really 11:06pm or so in Eastern Standard Time)

Burial : 39 Days Later

Last week I wrote that it's time for a placeholder that the ashes of Terri Schiavo have not been buried. At the time of her death, the press accounts were that Michael Schiavo was permitted to cremate the body and was required by the court to disclose to the Schinder's any burial or memorial service.

I was challenged by anonymous that the Schindlers may have been informed of a burial and chose not to make their knowledge of this public. This is highly improbable but on May 6 it was possible. Today it's no longer possible. The Schindler's have said that they have not been informed of the burial and Michael Schiavo was unavailable for comment. AP

Proposed wording: On May 7, 2005 the parents of Terri Schiavo made public a complaint that they had not been informed if, when, and where the ashes of their daughter were (or are to be) buried by Michael Schiavo. He was ordered by court to provide this information to them.

The wording can be left intact if nothing else happens, or changed depending on events. patsw 03:04, 10 May 2005 (UTC)