Talk:War crimes trials in Soviet Estonia

Title

I would like to hear what is wrong with title Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961. Please no blanket statements about holocaust denial. Trial was took place in Soviet Estonia and it was about Holocaust. "War Crimes" can include many other things and do not even need to be connected to WW II.--Staberinde 13:09, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

1. The crimes were not commited in "Soviet occupied Estonia"
2. The word "holocaust" was unknown in 1961
3. the word "war crimes" is used for most, if not all related trials.

Now for the "blanket statement":

The attempt to change the name is yet another example of Estonian Holocaust denial. The emphasis in on the word "Soviet" as if to point out that:

• Soviets had no authority to try the "claimed" war criminals
• The trials had no international recognition
• They were most likely show trials

Futhermore the intent here is the infer, that as the trials were null and void the accused must in fact have been innocent.

None of these assuptions have any support in the sources. -- Petri Krohn 13:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Petri, I asked what is wrong with title (Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961), I did not question if it is show trial, if they were actualy guilty, if estonia was occupied then trial took place or anything else unrelated. Also that The word "holocaust" was unknown in 1961 is not an argument as it was also not known in 1939-1945 but we still have article The Holocaust.--Staberinde 13:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Petri Krohn's apparently complicated preferences for article title wordings can be explained by Occam's razor: He does not particularly care whether the victims were Jews or not, he denies the Soviet occupation of Estonia, and his Wikipedia record clearly indicates that he hates Estonians. Hence he did not particularly want the words 'Holocaust' and 'Soviet' to be used here, and would vehemently stick to an article title insinuating that these were not so much 'Nazi crimes', or 'crimes of Estonian collaborators', but 'Estonian crimes'. Cheap and transparent.--Klamber 20:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I support the title of Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961. Other variants are thinkable, such as Holocaust trials of 1961 in Estonian SSR. I oppose narrowing the scope to war crimes; old footage shows undubitably that the primary accusations were those of crimes against humanity instead. Thus, classifying the whole proceedings under Holocaust (as well as genocide) is more appropriate than classifying it under war crimes.

Furthermore, it probably deserves mention that trials like this, as well as other -- less publicised -- NKVD/KGB executions, were a main factor in there being so little Nazi criminals left to try in post-Soviet Estonia, which Simon Wiesenthal Center regularly points out. Digwuren 14:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Odd logic that Petri would think that changing the title to Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961 is Holocaust denial. I think Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia, 1961 better describes the article which seems to specifically describes crimes against Jews and Gypsies. War crimes really refers to something else and is outside the scope of the article. I would support a rename, perhaps to Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia so we are not restricted to a particular year. Martintg 22:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

It stems from Petri Krohn's inability to tell apart the real world from his private fantasies. Consequently, when he says 'Holocaust denial', the actual semantic content is 'You're disagreeing with me on a Holocaust-related subject!'. In this case, he appears to have gotten the idea that 'war crimes' is the One True Classification of the atrocity described, and, perhaps out of a "theory" that 'war crimes' is a harsher description than 'participation in Holocaust', sees reclassification of this Holocaust event as a Holocaust event as "reducing the significance of Holocaust".

I know, it's absurd to a reasonable observer. That's why psychoceramics, the study of cracked pots, is so hard to master. Digwuren 05:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Klamber's explanation above also merits consideration. Digwuren 05:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• In regards to Petri's claim that he word "holocaust" was unknown in 1961, the word was first used in 1942, see Holocaust#Etymology_and_use_of_the_term. Martintg 22:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

This article specifically describes the trials held in Soviet Estonia over crimes committed against Jews during WW2. Martintg 22:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

No - There is no precedent for this selection of words.

Google hits:

• "war crimes trial": 935 000
• "Holocaust trial": 753 (first hit: "Holocaust Denial On Trial")
• "Estonian SSR": 61 800
• "Soviet Estonia": 24 500 (most links to "post-Soviet Estonia")

-- Petri Krohn 14:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions

Please note that the current title implicitly follows the same article naming convention as German war crimes, Italian war crimes, Japanese war crimes, Japanese war crimes trials, etc., whereas it would much more logically fit in the same pattern as Auschwitz trial, Belsen Trial, Frankfurt Auschwitz trials, Hamburg Ravensbrück Trials, Mauthausen-Gusen camp trials, etc. --Klamber 15:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)