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Sport (software)

Delete was tagged speedy for copyvio but on discussion page the article's author claims to be the software developer himself. Anyway, no notability shown. Carlossuarez46 00:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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DELETE No notability asserted. Not verifiable. Not one single solitary reliable source. All original research from the designer of the subject software. Blatant conflict of interest. OfficeGirl 00:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 00:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete As far as I'm aware, copyvios are always deleted unless there's an OTRS ticket, although I could be wrong. At any rate, nothing establishing notabiliy. i ^said 00:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delete for blatant advertising and lack of notability. --Bfigura ^(talk) 01:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

~~Please do not delete~~: Well, this is all rather hard to follow. I have just come back from the European Smalltalk User Group meeting where I gave a talk about Sport. Many people are interested in Sport. I had put together some notes on the OpenSkills wiki but it seemed to me that the Wikipedia would be a better place to record what sport *is* and use the OpenSkills wiki and the sourceforge page to manage the development of Sport. Anyway, no sooner do I make the Wikipedia page than I get all this fuss. What do I need to do to satisfy you guys? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.102.62 (talk) 06:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This template must be substituted.

~~Please do not delete~~: Further thoughts ... I don't understand what you guys mean by "notability", but taking the English I can tell you that Sport is notable for having unnified the Smalltalk community. There are now more Smalltalk libraries that work across (almost) all dialects than ever before. As for the "Blatant Advertising", well it is every bit as much advertising for every other software documented in Wikipedia, so fair cop on those grounds - but then don't you need to delete all articles on software? FWIW, Sport is a FOSS projects if that helps. Ah, yes. I need to work out your "Signature" code. Informally I can tell you that I am Bruce Badger and you'll note that I am logged in as I type. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbadger (talk • contribs)

REPLY Mr. Badger, welcome to Wikipedia and I hope you enjoy your experience participating in the encyclopedic process. One of the biggest problems with the Sport article is that all we have to go on is what you are personally telling us. As the creator of the software there is no way anyone could expect or require you to have a neutral point of view when writing about your subject. But it is absolutely important that all Wikipedia articles are presented neutrally. Also, even though you are undoubtedly an expert on the subject, Wikipedia can't just "take your word for it" on anything that you might be able to inform us about. That doesn't mean that we doubt your knowledge-- it's just the difference between an encyclopedia and a magazine. A magazine can publish Original research and can move very quickly to publish new information. An encyclopedia has to wait until other secondary sources have given the subject some coverage first, and then it reports what happened in the secondary sources.OfficeGirl 14:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep (that seems to be the word by convention - I hope that's OK). Thank you for the reply. I guess the thing that surprised me most was the speed with which the article was marked for deletion. I had only just started writing the thing and wham marked for delete. I do understand the points you are making (I think). As with many FOSS projects while many people are interested, few people get involved. In the case of Sport, you will see that I have included links to the ESUG conference where sport was discussed (the official notes from the meeting are not out yet, but I can link to them when they are), I have linked to the SourceForge project where code contributed by many people is held, and I have linked to the OpenSkills wiki where I started putting together the documentation before thinking the Wikipedia would be a place since Sport is widely used. For an idea of how widely consider the list of supported dialects (on the Sport page). I have indeed written two of those, but all the other were written by other people - they are listed on the OpenSkills wiki page. You can see Sport being discussed on comp.lang.smalltalk and I think that supports the point that Sport is not a Bruce Badger only thing - in fact Sport is a key part of a wider programme within the Smalltalk community to re-awaken the ANSI process for Smalltalk. So, beyond all this what can I do to keep this page on Wikipedia? (I still don't get the signing thing, but I (Bruce Badger) am logged in as I type this). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbadger (talk • contribs) 16:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

REPLY I have some suggestions for you on your talk page. You might consider userfying this article to work on it some more before publishing it in the main namespace. (to sign type four tilde "~") marks).OfficeGirl 16:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep As a member of Smalltalk community I can definitively claim that this article is worth staying on Wikipedia because Sport portability library solves such an important problem: how to easily port Smalltalk code between dialects. So maybe with a bit more work on content this article will fo a lot of good by informing other Smalltalkers about Sport mission. And this is one of goals of Wikipedia, isn't it? Mivsek 16:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to Wikipedia, Misvek. I hope you enjoy participating with us in the encyclopedic process. I appreciate your enthusiasm for this software, but your personal affinity for the subject isn't what we need in the way of reasons to keep this article. However, since you have some knowledge of the subject and you might know where articles about this software have been published, you can be a great help.

Please review the guidelines for reliable sources and get hold of some appropriate articles that show us cold hard proof that this software is well known and well established in the field. That's one of the most important steps to keeping this article from being deleted. And take heart, Mivsek, if the article is deleted you can still research the subject and re-create it later when there is more published work about the subject.

I just checked in our Smalltalk public repository when first version of Sport was published: 20 jan 06. I can provide more info how to prove that by yourself. And Sport was present on ESUG 07 (European Smalltalk Users Group) in at least two talks. See its mention in mine for instance, which is about Swazoo web server, which also use Sport for more than a year: Swazoo. I think that a year and half of existence and usage in projects is already a sign of notability. Also, a grand idea behind Sport is to restart the ANSI standardization process for Smalltalk.Mivsek 19:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Misvek. I am not an editor of the Sport article, but you can share those resources with Mr. Badger or anyone else who is working on the article, or you can edit it yourself. Just keep in mind that Wikipedia uses its own definition of the word notability that is different from the plain dictionary definition in the regular world outside Wikipedia. A year and a half of existence does not mean that something is truly notable for Wikipedia purposes, and it may be too soon to see whether Sport will have a lasting impact on the software world overall. But sources, sources, sources are key to this process. And the sources need to meet the guidelines in WP:RS. Thanks for starting to do some work on this.OfficeGirl 19:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since the creator of the software is telling us he posted the article in order for more people to learn of its existence, the natural reaction is that this is an attempt at advertising in violation of WP:ADVERT. We are probably going to take a little harder stance on requiring proof that a lot of people already know about this subject. Wikipedia is not the place for new or relatively new ideas and products to be introduced to the world. Not even the greatest new idea in the world. Get us the secondary sources and that will be a really big help. thanks. OfficeGirl 17:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please Keep This project/software is important to Smalltalk. This project allows portability not easily achievable with its use. You may not be aware but Smalltalk is pretty much the father of most Object Oriented languages, including C++, Java, C#, and more. Actually the faux cutting edge technology or Java and Dot Net are just bad copies of what Smalltalk has done for 20 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.228.195.206 (talk) 18:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for joining our discussion. We welcome your input. But the fact that the Sport software is the greatest thing since sliced bread doesn't help us qualify this article for inclusion in Wikipedia. "It is useful" is not a reason we can use to keep an article here. See WP:USEFUL We need sources, sources, sources. See WP:RS. Articles, books, treatises, etc. We have to meet a standard on Wikipedia that is called NOTABILITY. To learn about what notability is for Wikipedia purposes, see WP:N. You can help Mr. Badger work on the article and get it ready for publication at a later date, but it does not meet Wikipedia standards at this time. OfficeGirl 19:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. It's a copyright violation. I gave Mr. Badger pointers on what he needed to do in order to verify that he is the copyright holder, and he has yet to do so. Regardless of the merits of the subject, until and unless the creator proves that he is the copyright holder, it must be deleted. There is nothing to discuss. Corvus cornix 21:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Hey, the last is not true and is unfair. You asked that I explain on the original wiki page that the Wikipedia page was an OK use of the text that *I* wrote. I have done that. I know it's not a *vote* BTW. I hoped to demonstrate notability which I was told was very important. I am having trouble in keeping up with the discussions because you are using a wiki as a messaging system which is very confusing to me. Also, in my attempts to to exactly what you are asking for I seem to be digging deeper into some hole. This is very frustrating. Could you please explain in plain English what you need us (because now you know it is the Smalltalk community that wants this page) to do. Thanks. (and here is an attempt at a signature) Bbadger 22:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep you ask for "cold hard proof". I have added references to an international conference at which Sport was discussed (ESUG). In fact several of the talks mentioned Sport as it is becoming a widely used portability tool. The people on the comp.lang.smalltalk list are not "meatpuppets" thank you very much. comp.lang.smalltalk is a new group with a very high signal to noise ratio frequented by people who use Smalltalk professionally. So you have professional bodies and international conferences and source management systems and expert opinion - what more can we do to convince you? Bbadger 22:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Revision as of 22:12, 5 September 2007 edit Bbadger (talk \| contribs) 39 edits →‎[[Sport (software)]] ← Previous edit		Revision as of 22:20, 5 September 2007 edit undo Bbadger (talk \| contribs) 39 edits →‎[[Sport (software)]] Next edit →
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	'''Keep''' Hey, the last is not true and is unfair. You asked that I explain on the original wiki page that the Wikipedia page was an OK use of the text that I* wrote. I have done that. I know it's not a vote BTW. I hoped to demonstrate '''notability''' which I was told was very important. I am having trouble in keeping up with the discussions because you are using a wiki as a messaging system which is very confusing to me. Also, in my attempts to to exactly what you are asking for I seem to be digging deeper into some hole. This is very frustrating. Could you please explain in plain English what you need us (because now you know it is the Smalltalk community that wants this page) to do. Thanks. (and here is an attempt at a signature) [[User:Bbadger\|Bbadger]] 22:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)		'''Keep''' Hey, the last is not true and is unfair. You asked that I explain on the original wiki page that the Wikipedia page was an OK use of the text that I* wrote. I have done that. I know it's not a vote BTW. I hoped to demonstrate '''notability''' which I was told was very important. I am having trouble in keeping up with the discussions because you are using a wiki as a messaging system which is very confusing to me. Also, in my attempts to to exactly what you are asking for I seem to be digging deeper into some hole. This is very frustrating. Could you please explain in plain English what you need us (because now you know it is the Smalltalk community that wants this page) to do. Thanks. (and here is an attempt at a signature) [[User:Bbadger\|Bbadger]] 22:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

			*'''Keep''' you ask for "cold hard proof". I have added references to an international conference at which Sport was discussed (ESUG). In fact several of the talks mentioned Sport as it is becoming a widely used portability tool. The people on the comp.lang.smalltalk list are not "meatpuppets" thank you very much. comp.lang.smalltalk is a new group with a very high signal to noise ratio frequented by people who use Smalltalk professionally. So you have professional bodies and international conferences and source management systems and expert opinion - what more can we do to convince you? [[User:Bbadger\|Bbadger]] 22:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)