Talk:Lolcat

Which image?

Users have tried to add a different images to this page many times recently. Can we decide on an image(s) to use so that there is consensus backing these removals? i ^said 04:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It should definitely be Wikipedia-cat, seeing as it was made specifically for Wikipedia, and the one it's being replaced with is slightly inappropriate. I know and strongly agree with WP not being censored, but cat porn is simply unneeded here. It might be good to link to a commons category for lolcats, but at the same time that would encourage people to put lolcats on commons, so I dunno -Lucid 04:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The wikipedia one. It is a good illustration and was made for the article. Viridae^Talk 06:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but there are currently two. Are we keeping both, or just the Wikipedia one? i ^said 06:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe it should be the one about the "I'm in ur camera, doin' some noodz. The wikipedia one is not funny at all, and the purpose of a lolcat image is to be funny. How about keeping all three images instead of deleting one of them? Pistolen08^Talk

Agreed. The point of Lolcats is that they're funny.EmoDeathMachine 01:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Humour is perspective. Lolcats are perfectly welcome to be funny, but this is an encyclopedia, not a random stuff site. That picture is grossly inappropriate, especially when we already have perfectly suitable alternatives that have been around far longer without any problems --Lucid 01:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Also see WP:ITSFUNNY --Lucid 01:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Uh... this isn't a deletion discussion, as far as I'm aware :) Gracenotes^T § 05:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we should use the WP one, and none others. There is no need for two. i ^said 03:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I also think that the current image is not serving it's purpose; it's not a canonical example because it isn't funny. I would suggest using one of the famous images like "invisible sandwich" or "can i has cheesburger?" but I doubt that they would survive under fair use since they are replaceable. We really need a free-licensed image to be found/made which is actually funny... Tomgreeny 03:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Funny is subjective, and therefore has no relevance to which image will be included. I personally don't think the WP one is funny, or particularly illustrative of an lolcat, but it was made for this article. Also, I'm no expert, but are images uploaded to flikr useable here without permission? If not, does changing the text on the image make it a different image? If a picture can be made originally, that illustrates the concept of an lolcat well, then that should be the one chosen. For now, I guess we should go with the WP one. i ^said 03:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course humour is subjective, but does ANYONE actually find this one funny? This is like having pictures of ugly people in the beauty article, it's not properly representative of the thing it's supposed to represent. Tomgreeny 04:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, that is the same issue. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Things that are open to interperation, such as what is funny, should not be used as criteria for what is included. i ^said 04:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I disagree that the picture is "grossly inappropriate". The picture is quite humorous, and is not revealing at all. The picture is exactly this- A cat lying in a funny position with a related funny saying. While I do understand that humor is subjective, I think that we can agree that the WP lolcat is completely void of humor. I also believe that wikipedia should not be censored, and that that particular image does not represent the essence of a lolcat. I would be willing to settle on the monorail lolcat or the "Let me show you my pokemanz" lolcat, even though I believe the "I'm in ur camera, doin' some n00dz" would be a better fit for the article. Pistolen08^Talk —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 03:34, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

I cringe every time I see the Wikipedia lolcat. Having a cute little self-reference is understandable, but not to the exclusion of more "genuine" (and less blatant) examples. Pistolen08: while the pokemanz and monorail are great examples of lolcats, they are not released under free licenses, and are overall not appropriate for Wikipedia. Moral of the story: release your lolcats under the CC-by-SA/GFDL dual-license :) Gracenotes^T § 05:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

You can try looking for lolcats released under creative commons on flickr here: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=lolcat&l=cc&page=46 , the only funny one I found that appears to actually be of the owners cat (and so we can be sure has a valid licence) is this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/brandylee/607102864/ Tomgreeny 23:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

How ironic. I dont think we should but the satan cat one in, because it could be offensive. i ^said 00:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is a positive correlation between offensiveness and humour content :P Tomgreeny 00:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not think the satan cat is appropriate for wikipedia, even if it does have the correct license. The one with the gray/white cat "in ur camera, doin some noodz" is perfect for the lolcat wiki page. I am the cat's owner and I have released the image under the CC-by-SA/GFDL dual-license. I have given free use for the image in any way, shape, or form you wish to use it in. In conclusion, it is the ideal lolcat... Pistolen08 02:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

← Well, technically there are restrictions on that license, so it's not any and every use. And there are other images that have just as good of a license. As for it being the ideal image, I don't even get what it means. i ^said 08:45, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I see you guys are having a hard tiem finding a fair-use Caturday image Ninja337 03:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I dont think we want to use a fair use, in fact I dont think we can, because there's a better liscensed image available, which precludes using fair use. We're having a hard time finding a funny lolcat that is liscensed under the creative commons/GFDL/public domain. i ^said 03:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes... undoubtedly 4chan would release a barrage of freely licensed lolcats if we changed the article title. Or not >.< Gracenotes^T § 04:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Lolcode DRV opened

Hai. I has a Deleshun review. It has gained teh reliabal surces. I thot u might want to know. Kthxbye --Lucid 07:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The article at LOLCODE has now been restored. It could use a little bit of work and an extra source or two, but it's starting to catch up. Anyone interested in helping out? MrZaius^talk 16:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Future sources

More of the same: http://www.gazette.com/articles/cat_25284___article.html/sites_web.html

ICanHasCheezburger-specific articles covering the financial side of the story: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/21/business/21online.html?ex=1187668800&en=b63b5b4971bececb&ei=5070 http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/jul2007/sb20070713_202390.htm

MrZaius^talk 17:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Another one: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118798557326508182.html JavaTenor 17:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The WSJ article cites a page on Encyclopedia Dramatica as a reference for "I'm in your base killing your d00ds." But ED was banned from Wikipedia in MONGO's arbitration. Does this have any bearing as to whether the WSJ is an acceptable source for this article? --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 18:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I shouldn't think so. It looks like the WSJ linked to the first Google result of "I'm in your base killing your d00ds" just to provide some sort of context for the in-joke. The WSJ is an acceptable source based on its journalistic excellence and reliability. (And banned-by-association chains are impractical.) Gracenotes^T § 19:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

User: ptk fgs

Does anyone realize that the guy chairing these discussion's name is 'PTKFGS', Punch The Keys For God's Sake, The sean connery phrase that is essentially the calling card of YTMND? I don't find it unbiased in the least bit that a ptkfgsytmndfag is keeping the nail in the coffin on the renaiming of this article, since 4chan and ytmnd have been at odds with eachother since the dawn of time. Everyone here can tell you this 'lolcats' phenom was born, and continues on, 4chan.org. Requesting citations to this effect is completely futile due to the fact that it is a DYNAMIC CONTENT site with no authoritative source of information on its memes besides ED (which is done on purpose to keep 4chan a small, largely incomprehensible community to gaiafags and the like.

By the same token, there are few if any valid citations supporting the name lolcats, and any that do exist are rather half-baked. 4chan.org as a member of the imageboard/meme factory community, is by far the most well publicised and in recent times, garners the most fame. Its image-macros have a very unique style in text, font, size, spelling conventions, color, placement, and general theme. People just don't realize that 90% of the 'funny images' they download from 3rd party sites like icanhascheezburger or funnyimages.com were, in fact, products of 4chan. I believe that since nearly every caturday image referenced on these humor farming sites features the distinct mark of 4chan imagemacro tools, we can safely attribute them to the aforementioned cache of users.

The bottom line is, ptkfgs presents a conflict of interest in editing and/or managing the content of this article, due to the fact that 4chan, YTMND, SomethingAwful, et al are involved in a known troll war, and someone with a wiki identity of THE prominent meme of any one of these sites is more than a coincidence. If he is not a pro-YTMNDtrollfag, he is certainly slanted in the direction of said site, and his/her arguments in favor of 'lolcats' are basically rooted in heresay and circumstantial evidence, while the body of evidence supporting these as original 4chan memes is overwhelming.

Please, if anyone else knows of an entire community which uses this font, typeset, size, color, style, and purposeful, unique, consistent grammatical errors EXCLUSIVELY, let me know. Not every piece of information is citable, however, I believe given the undeniable origins of the image macro 'fingerprints', it is more than appropriate to attribute the name to original or common knowledge. Go google PTKFGS, tell me the results on the first ENTIRE PAGE don't represent some sort of NPOV issue with this guy's username.

214.13.141.100 18:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Another suggestion, google Caturday, and note the same trend in results, only obviously attributable in nearly every mention of the word, to 4chan.

214.13.141.100 18:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Please note that Wikipedia strongly requests that users assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. There are several users on these talk pages who are unrelated to 4chan, Something Awful, TYMND, etc, who are arguing against a rename of the article as well. When Time Magazine, as one example, writes about "Caturday" rather than "lolcats", then there might be more of an argument. The world beyond 4chan knows of this meme as "lolcats", and that is what Wikipedia considers most important. Resolute 21:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Last time I checked Time Magazine isn't the expert on all web phenomena. I'd like to see some reputable source that these cat macros are indeed "lolcats", besides some cheap American news magazines. Maybe some copyrights Ninja337 02:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, /b/ and thus Caturday has gained popularity outside of North America, more so than "lolcats" has, so Caturday has more international usage, which wikipedia aims for. If you compare lolcats and Caturday in Swedish google, Caturday has around 400 more results.Ninja337 03:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Swedish Wikipedia is that way ←. We go by what the reliable sources use to describe them, which is lolcats. The only RS I see that mentions caturday CALLS THE IMAGE MACROS THEMSELVES LOLCATS, and only mentioned Caturday AS A PLACE WHERE THEY SHOWED UP. Calling it Caturday is WP:OR which goes against a number of policies and guidelines. Feel free to make a section on Caturday if you can provide WP:RS from a WP:NPOV, but renaming the article Caturday is not an option --lucid 04:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

No personal attacks, but facts are facts. Trolls exist, and when dealing with the chan communities they're quite intelligent, crafty, and tactful. This sort of thing is the perfect crime to a ytmnd/sa user. In cases like this it's simply a matter of which faction member holds more clout on WP. Lets simplify this and say that these are obvious 4chan imagemacros (for the font and style reasons above) and that 4chan created the vast majority of them, and that 4chan refers to it as Caturday and not by some absurd attempt at a 'web 2.0' catchphrase. 'It's caturday! Post some ******* cats!' That's it, no lolcats ever. Since the word 'cats' is obviously not going to direct here, I believe caturday as the name of the phenom is apropriate. I don't believe what OTHER PEOPLE call something is a valid point, seeing as the people who created them themselves call them something else. Van Gogh painted 'Scream' and called it 'Scream', if some art critics from NYT and WSJ started calling it 'Yell', the name of the piece does not change to 'Yell', no matter how reuptable the source is. I think it's easy to see this is a meme that originated on 4chan through imagemacros, where the user community came to call it caturday, and the images themsevles simply cats. You dont see anyone saying 'Its caturday, post some ******* lolcats!' 214.13.142.178 10:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Please stop putting your signature on an extra line, it's extremely annoying. And yes, Wikipedia does go by the common name sources use, not the correct name. We don't have anything but a redirect at Liberty Enlightening the World, and especially if we didn't even have a reliable source that calls it that we wouldn't mention it, as we don't here. Your comments are entirely advocating WP:OR, which is unacceptable. --lucid 15:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

If they did, that'd be two sources while the vast majority of the others, as previously stated, refer to it as lolcat. What we'd do in that case is deal with it the same way that we do caturday in the lead, or, if it got complicated enough, an etymology section. See the manual of style pages referred to every time this same argument is brought up. MrZaius^talk 12:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying we have to rename the article, a VFD is fine too. The fact is, there are no reliable sources that say these cat macros are called "lolcats". The only sources we have in the article are novelty news articles written by ill-informed American journalists who lack research. Ninja337 19:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but on Wikipedia, we consider sources like Time, major daily newspapers, books, etc., to be reliable, and unedited/unvetted Internet forums like 4chan, YTMND, blogs, personal pages, and the like not to be reliable. That's policy, and if you believe that it somehow does not serve the needs of Wikipedia, there are various places to bring that up and discuss it. However, asserting that for this one article we should ignore WP:RS and WP:OR and discard reliable sources in favor of informal Internet sources is not really an option. --MCB 23:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine, I'll make changes in the article to reflect that then.Ninja337 02:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

 Done I selected the username to confuse YTMND vandals. I have changed it. Now, let us continue the discussion. —BurnDownBabylon 02:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

How is Time magazine any good for internet memes. It is quite obvious that 4chan created this meme like so many other memes but on wikipedia little is show about 4chan. 4chan has made a huge impact on internet culture. Maybe you should try reading about the history of the chans instead of what some middle aged journalist from time magazine that doesnt even know the internet is a series of tubes. Why even write about this as it takes at least a year to understand the chans and their many memes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.42.8 (talk • contribs)

Saturdays, or 'Caturdays'.

I thought it was proclaimed that 'everyday shall be caturday' in the rules of the internet. -Anonymous --68.9.193.246 00:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

It is. If you can't tell, basically wikipedia hates Anon, along with YTMND, SA, the GNAA (18 AFD! W00T!) and the rest of us. They are being lulzkillers and using citation to kill Caturday, despite "lolcats" being a marketing term. Just like The Game, we just need someone to say it on TV or write some article on it in a major newspaper, and Wiki will be forced to accept us. -Anonymous 68.1.79.246 02:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

This page makes mention of Caturday, but, again, the predominate term (be it overly commercial or not), especially when it's the only one that can be reliably sourced as a title for the overarching phenomenon, should be reflected in the page title. It's common sense, not a conspiracy theory. MrZaius^talk 03:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What reliable sources Ninja337 02:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The print newspaper sources that refer to the phenomenon w/"lolcat" and only make passing reference to caturday as an event where the pictures are posted. No reliable sources suggest that caturday A: Preceded the term lolcat, or B: Is an appropriate label for the overarching phenomenon. MrZaius^talk 06:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

WARNING: MrZaius has a hard-on for the term "Lolcats" and will use any means necessary to preserve it over the correct term "Caturday" because it is the only way the slobbering, fat-fuck can get it up. --Demonesque 01:41, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

And we don't want to remove his only means of erection, especially now that screenshots of the above info are all over /b! Meowy 02:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Image

Let me preface this by saying that I don't have extensive knowledge of Wikipedia's policies, and I'm bringing this up as an honest concern. I thought Wikipedia wasn't supposed to reference itself, yet the first image does just that. Or another way of looking at it, I thought Wikipedia's content was supposed to be independent of the media it's being stored on, that the data should be just as meaningful if printed on paper as when hosted on Wikipedia's servers, yet, outside of the context of Wikipedia, that first image is not a particularly good example of a lolcat. Isn't this a problem? D-Fluff has had E-Nuff 20:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, I have purged the "editing ur articles" image and moved the "help wif ur shopping" image to the top. —BurnDownBabylon 22:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

And I have reverted. There is the most consensus to use the WP image, see #Which image?. I encourage you to discuss there. The discussion has stalled. i ^said 22:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, perhaps consensus wasn't reached, so here is a new discussion. User:I (I'm sorry, but I don't see how else to refer to you since your username is a common pronoun), it seems like your opinion on the matter is in the minority based on the discussion to which you referred me. Most from above don't find the Wikipedia cat image to be the most appropriate as the main example of the article. 4 people (Pistolen08, EmoDeathMachine, Tomgreeny, Gracenotes) appear to think a better image should be used as the main example while only three (yourself, Lucid, Viradae) find that image to be most appropriate. 2 more (myself and BurnDownBabylon) have also expressed disapproval. I don't know the exact definition of consensus in this context, but I think we should switch the placement of the images for the time being, until more people support your take on the matter. That said, I will, however, wait for your response before doing so. D-Fluff has had E-Nuff 22:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Switching the placement is certainly fine, and I would encourage you to do just that if you believe it is a good thing to do. As far as WP:ASR goes, I can see the concern, but at the same time, this is an image rather than text. Per your argument, I believe that given how popular Wikipedia itself is these days, it is unlikely that someone seeing that image on a mirror site (which, iirc, is the main driver for WP:ASR) would not understand the caption. I am also loathe to remove a free image on an article where it makes perfect sense to be there. Resolute 23:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, now there have been a bunch of reverts. I am afraid to touch the article because someone with more edits than me is going to swoop down with a million WP:(some uppercase letters)-style policies and tell me how I don't know anything about wikipedia. If I'm lucky, I'll end up with some warnings on my talk page too. I said what I wanted to, so I think I'll just avoid that whole mess. D-Fluff has had E-Nuff 23:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't really feel that way; your opinion is just as important as anyones. As for consensus, numbers do not make it. There is probably no consensus, but there is not a consensus to use something other than the WP one. I don't know if there is a hierarchy among license preferences, but the WP one is public domain, and the others, while free, aren't. But I don't think that matters. At any rate, you are correct now. There is, now, leaning towards a consensus of using a different image than the WP one. However, there is no consensus as to what one. Until that time, I would suggest we leave the WP one, only because that has been the one here for a while. We should decide what image to use instead of the WP one, should consensus go that way. i ^said 00:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we need a consensus to override WP:ASR. We have an image that adequately illustrates the topic. Why do we need a second one that violates the established guidelines of the manual of style? —BurnDownBabylon 20:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

As much as I dislike this argument, I am going to use it. WP:ASR is a guideline, not a policy. Thus, we don't always have to follow it. It doesn't say anything about images, so we also don't have to follow it. And the shopping one is the second one. This one was created for the article, and is PD. I'd rather use PD than CC by SA. I wont revert your change, but I respectfully ask you do, until this is decided. i ^said 00:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It is a guideline that this community follows very consistently, and it is one that we should follow in this case. The suggestion that its applicability here is limited because it does not explicitly mention images is obviously specious.

The shopping image is in fact the first image. The specially created image was added on 7 July.

While I too prefer public domain images, CC-BY-SA is sufficiently free for inclusion. Self-referential material, on the other hand, reduces the portability of Wikipedia content to other projects. This article is licensed as free for anyone to republish. We should expect that they will, and not place on them the additional burden of determining where contributers decided to include self-referential content, despite our community consensus to avoid it when possible.

I think the fact that it was made specifically for this article also weighs against the image: if this were not an image, we would likely call that original research.

Lastly, I am not the one that made the most recent edit. Let us hear from Burntsauce before asking him to revert it. —BurnDownBabylon 00:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

← Ah, I hadn't checked the history to see the reverts. Sorry. But at any rate, there are only two lolcat images (that I know of) now, the other one was deleted. I dont really know how I feel about the WP one as opposed to the shopping one; I know yours, so we should wait for other opinions. i ^said 01:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of no policy or rule that says we need consensus to override WP:ASR, neverminding the fact that ASR doesn't even mention images. Obviously, I am in the group that would like to see the image restored, but like User:I, I am not going to revert war over it. Hell, since it is PD, the easy solution is for someone to change the caption text to "Im in ur encyclopedia...editing ur articles." That would resolve the issue without the need to delete a perfectly valid image. Resolute 04:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia would not have a specific policy expressly requiring a consensus to override the manual of style; to require one here is a strawman argument. The general practice at the English Wikipedia is to follow policy and guidelines in the absence of consensus to override it. That's the nature of how policy and guidelines are used here.

Images with self-referential content are harmful to the encyclopedia's mission in just the same way that text is. Please do not continue to assert that WP:ASR does not specifically and literally mention image files; this argument is so obviously specious that it is insulting to hear it repeated again.

Why do you believe we should override the manual of style here? What benefits does this image provide that outweigh the costs of the self-referential content? I'm asking this regardless of whether you feel there's a rule that compels you to answer.

Lastly, I encourage you to edit the image with the new caption you have suggested. I just hope you will be working from the original image, not the captioned one. —BurnDownBabylon 14:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

For me, the reason WP:ASR is not valid in this case is the logic test. The purpose of ASR is so that phrases like "Wikipedia believes..." does not appear on a mirror like answers.com. However, Wikipedia is so well known that even on a mirror site, this specific image still conveys the intended message with no challenge at all. The image is an example of what the article says, while the use of "Wikipedia" also serves as an example, rather than the focus. The image remains perfectly valid on any mirror site that hosts this article as a result. Frankly, I find the use of WP:ASR as an excuse to remove the image to be specious.

As far as changing the caption goes, 1. I do not have access to the original, and 2. My skills with MS Paint are insufficient to create a high quality alternate. I will leave that change to someone with better image editing skills than I. Resolute 19:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)