Talk:Christian views on magic

Clutch, I can't find an online version of the NWT and I'd REALLY like to have links to the Bible passages that we're quoting, can you help? --Dante Alighieri

Well, I Googled quite a bit, as I'm sure you did. The consensus is that the publishers have not put it online due to its, shall we say, controversial status. I'm sure one of their associates would be glad to visit you with a copy. I do love the translation: "You must not preserve a sorceress alive." Well, then, how am I to preserve her? --Nate 23:51 Nov 27, 2002 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sure I could find a copy around somewhere... I just wanted to be able to link to it from the page. --Dante Alighieri

I hear that salt is a good preservative. -- Ram-Man

Preferably salt of the earth, and then shine the light of the world on her :) -phma

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Would anyone mind if I changed the opening line from:

is a biblical passage in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible, Old Testament)

to

is a biblical passage in the Old Testament

? I don't like the flow and I question whether the link to Tanakh is truly necessary. --Dante Alighieri

I think someone should find and add teh cockney rhyming slang version :-)

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Interpreting a "verse" in isolation is hermeneutically suspect. Verse divisions were added to the Bible in the middle ages, and the idea that verses were in any way units of meaning is a modern innovation. Bible "verses" are a Christian invention: they were not used in reference to the Masoretic text of the Tanakh.

Picking a verse here and a verse there, or picking all verses in which a given word is used, etc. are bizarre, if popular, methods of divining meaning from the Bible. To talk of Exodus 22:18 without referencing its context (that is it part of the 18th section "mishpatim" of the division of the Law of Moses into 54 sections) results in overlooking the fundamental logic of the laws being given, which is to keep the religion of Yahweh's people distinct in its practices from those of the surrounding peoples. To give this specific verse its own link from Exodus unduly emphasizes it (you'd think it was as important as the other divisions of Exodus) and ought to be reconsidered. In fact, I'll move it myself<G>, and leave to others whether the link belongs in Exodus or, as I think, really only in witchcraft. -- Someone else

Fine, but rather than just COMPLAINING that it is being analyzed in isolation, without reference to it's position in a larger body, why not improve the article by adding the information you stated above? --Dante Alighieri

Because having ONE article devoted to ONE verse is a problem that can't be fixed by ADDING to the article! <G> -- Someone else 21:54 Nov 29, 2002 (UTC) (P.S.... it's not that I think the article is BAD, I think the article is a mistake.) -- Someone else

Look, I respect your intelligence and your point of view, so don't take our banter the wrong way. :) That being said, I must TOTALLY disagree with you. ;)

The article is necessary, and I'll explain why. The fact of the matter is, people labeled as "witches" have been horribly persecuted by Christians (and not just in modern times). You can say as much as you like about how the text SHOULD be interpreted and how it OUGHT to be understood. The problem is, that's not how some people HAVE interpreted it. There are people out there, and I think we BOTH agree that they are a little bit off, that insist that witches are an abomination to God and that they must be cleansed. Now, granted, most of the cleansing types lived a few centuries ago, but still, the point is that it is a real historical phenomenon. Now, as far as textual support in the Bible for this position, I can only find TWO passages. One is Exodus 22:18. The other is Deuteronomy 18:11-12. Now all these people who claim(ed) to find textual evidence for their insane persecutions must have been looking at one or both of these passages. Now I think that that very fact makes them relevant for inclusion in the Wiki. --Dante Alighieri

They should be included. Under witchcraft. Or Christianity. Or Views of Christianity on witchcraft. Not as separate articles whose titles are in and of themselves without meaning and which one interested in the subject matter would be unlikely to find. -- Someone else 22:16 Nov 29, 2002 (UTC)

I agree that this should be rolled into a better-named article. The content is valid because people have historically taken single verses out of the Bible to support all sorts of bizarre arguments that don't logically follow from the context and meaning of the verses. In fact an article on that very subject would be great. But what to call it... --mav

I'm going to say this, as a practicing witch and a professional technical writer, and then I'm going to leave you guys to hash it out, because I don't really care: This "article" clearly belongs in the existing Witchcraft article, because it's duplicative of what's there. And picking out individual verses of the Bible for independent articles is ridiculous anyhow. -- isis 22:33 Nov 29, 2002 (UTC)

Have you seen John 21 or Mark 16 ? CheeseDreams 01:22, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that this could be put in Witchcraft, but if Witchcraft gets too long, Witchcraft in the Bible or something similar might be a good place for discussion. I have to say that the topic seems to invite non-NPOV interpretations. --Eloquence

My suggestion: Exodus 22:18 should 'become' Christian views on witchcraft. The text in the "Witchcraft" article that is pertinent should be incorporated in that article, and the witchcraft article linked to it. (There's no reason for the Witchcraft article to be dominated by other religions' views of it!) This article could then incorporate all the pertinent material (i.e., both of the verses cited, a discussion of the validity of "interpreting" isolated verses shorn of context, and a link to Biblical hermaneutics, which would need expansion)... Then Exodus could lose its link to 22:18, and the link to Christian views on witchcraft could go in Harry Potter instead of the Witchcraft and Exodus 22:18 links. If this sounds right to you, Dante, you could do it by moving Exodus 22:18 to Christian views of (or on?) witchcraft and requesting a deletion of Exodus 22:18. But I leave that for you, I'm voicing an opinion, not trying to force it on anyone. <G> -- Someone else

Although I agree with -- I think it is everyone except one person -- that this article should be folded into a more general article on witchcraft ofr Christian persecution of witchcraft, either way the text should be NPOV. I made a few minor changes: I placed the word "Christian" before "Old Testament," and changed "English speaking people" to "English speaking Christians." Alos, a word is not "defined" as witchcraft -- a word is translated as witchcraft and the word witchcraft itself must be defined. Slrubenstein

Dante Allighieri writes:

The fact of the matter is, people labeled as "witches" have been horribly persecuted by Christians (and not just in modern times). You can say as much as you like about how the text SHOULD be interpreted and how it OUGHT to be understood. The problem is, that's not how some people HAVE interpreted it.

which provides an eloquent reason for why this article should be deleted, or renamed. Clearly, the article is not "about" this Biblical verse; it is "about" the persecution of witches by Christians; it is "about" people who have interpreted a particualr Bibilical verse a particular way. Since the point of the article is not at all to be "about" the Biblical verse itself, it should not have this name. To quote this verse out of context is to be misleading -- a crime for an encyclopedia. And if the main authors of this article are concerned primarily with one context for the verse (Christian persecution of witches), well, then that shoulod be the title of this article. Slrubenstein

You're right, I suppose the article isn't really ABOUT Exodus 22:18. I'm not married to the name Exodus 22:18, but that seemed to be the early consensus on what the name ought to be. I certainly don't oppose changing the name. I'll go ahead and move the article to Christian views on witchcraft as suggested by Someone Else. Everyone, please hold off on more replies here until I can complete the change. --Dante Alighieri

Cumbersome phrase department:

Most Christians who believe in witchcraft believe that it derives its power from forces of evil - by a special pact or by an appeal to those forces, such as Satan, also called Lucifer, or "the devil". Another belief is that the practice of witchcraft is based on deception. Both of these views may be held together or separately.

I get tripped up by phrases like believe in witchcraft because it's not readily apparent whether that means:

• approve of it, or
• agree that it exists

I don't believe in deceiving people, for example, although I do concede that "many deceivers have come into the world, leading the people astray". --Uncle Ed E.g.

• Jesus
• Simon Magus
• Irenaeus
• Tertullian
• Karl Marx
• George Bush
• Pied Piper of Hamlin

?CheeseDreams 01:22, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)