Talk:Comparative military ranks of Korea

NK websites

I have seen on some other websites, namely this one, where the enlisted-NCO ranks are collar tabs instead of shoulder boards...I saw JSA, and I think the shoulder boards go on the overcoats and collar tabs on the everyday duty uniform, but I can't be sure. Can anyone help clear this up?

--HerrMauser 23:58, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Why do we have South Korean ranks in McCune-Reischauer, and North Korean ranks in Revised romanization? Isn't that backwards relative to the official romanization schemes recommended by the two governments? Also, it might be made clearer that the two versions are only different romanizations, being identical in Korean. --Reuben 04:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I've gone through and corrected the romanizations, however it's caused some bizarre links. Daejang describes the North Korean rank while Taejang describes its South Korean equivalent! I did my best to maintain as many links as possible, but there needs to be a concerted effort to move/merge/edit the various Korean military rank articles to fit Wikipedia (and government) conventions. AKADriver 16:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, the link for Taejang(it's listed on this page as the South Korean romanization), when followed, the page says it's the North Korean...69.158.110.94 01:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Romanization improvement tasks

Already fixed

• Byeongjang, Sangbyeong, Ilbyeong, Ibyeong, Byeong, Mudungbyeong

To do

• Move Daejang to Taechang
• Move Taejang to Daejang
• Merge Taechang and Daejang?
• Move Taeryong to Daeryeong
• Move Chungryong to Jungryeong
• Move Soryong to Soryeong
• Move Sojwa to Sochwa
• Delete Daewi (it just redirects to Senior Captain)
• Move Taewi to Daewi
• Fix red links

AKADriver 17:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for this, but there have been several changes to the main rank table which has broken several links and caused others to redirect to the wrong article. If such changes are being made, the editor should ensure it doesnt damage or delete already existing information. -Husnock 18:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

한글!

i added korean script for all the ranks i could. hopefully i didnt break anything. i just cant stand to see romanization reign supreme! -Lordraydens 06:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

USAF ranks

I'm fairly sure that the U.S. Air Force senior NCOs ranks were shifted upwards in the mid 90s. In other words, a Master Sgt had six stripes under and around the star, SMSgts had six down, one inverted, and CMSgts had six down and two up. Not official research, just something to think about. Currently the CMSgt has six down, three up. Thanks. Also, i didn't want to change it myself because i haven't studied up on korean era air force ranks. --24.238.170.99 01:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)lowly AFJROTC cadet

Save the Images

I discovered this outstanding article some time ago and then recognized with horror that nearly every one of the insignia images is in danger of being deleted. Every one of the Korean insignia pictures comes from CNFK. Someone should write a bot and update the tags as most of the images have notices that they will soon be deleted. -OberRanks 19:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Mass Speedy Delete Notice of Images

CNFK Images

The copyright violation notice is unfounded. These are Korean military insignia images that are available from both CNFK and the U.S. 7th Fleet. The fact that they also appear on some other person's website is immaterial. That person does not own the copyright to Korean military rank pictures and, in all likilihood, obtained them from a US or ROK source.

In addition, I personally spoke on the phone with a Lieutenant Commander attached to CTF 76. He confirmed these are public images and are published frequently on countles insignia/rank webpages and are perfectly fine to use on Wikipedia. -OberRanks 03:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

ROK Navy Response

I would dispute that the owner of the website this image appears on holds copyright on these images. I spoke with (about 15 minutes ago) a contact within the ROK Navy who says the owner of that website cannot copyright their insignia images. The images that webpage displays are identical to images which appear in both USN and ROKN publications. -OberRanks 04:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The point is that they claim copyright on the versions of the images that they made. Can't we get or make free equivalents that are free of possible copyright? Also, the license tag on this page is false; this image is not the work of a DoD employee. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 04:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

According to CNFK, they made these images and now these same images are showing up on the website you found. The ROK Navy is saying the same thing. I have now talked to three United States officers and four ROK officers about this and they all the same thing. This is a danger of taking on face value websites that show information which also shows up on Wikipedia. You dont know if the chicken or the egg comes first. I plan to rewrite the entire article in the near future and will be reuploading these images in any case. -OberRanks 05:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide the source for the original images? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 14:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The original source for any Korean military insignia image is the Republic of Korea Armed Forces who have in turn released, without restriction, all of thier insignia imnages to the United States military. That is per the Flag Aide to CNFK and the PAO Officer of the ROK 3rd Fleet. Those same people stated directly to me that there are no restrictions on using these images on Wikipedia and actually the article "Comparative Korean Ranks" is used as a reference by them. -OberRanks 23:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Moved from Admin Noticeboard

Hello admins. I know this user meant well, but a large number of Korean military insignia pictures were marked for deltion as "copyright violations" becuase they were discovered on another webasite. I have investigated this and the pictures on Wikipedia are from CNFK and the U.S. 7th Fleet. I confirmed this on the phone with an officer of CTF 76 and have seen these same images in many different military publications. The person running the website which also showed these images probably got them from a US or ROK source and, in any event, no one person can own the copyright to Korean military insignia. In short, I think all of these speedy deltion notices were rather hasty and am wondering if they can all be simultaneously removed. For more info, see Image talk:KoreanSeaman2.gif. -OberRanks 03:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, looks like you should hit the tagged articles with a {{hangon}} template in the meantime. --Haemo 03:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

No, but use Haemo's suggestion. We have been trying to sort out the insignia issue, as we did earlier with the Ukrainian rank images. As with that issue, the website uniforminsignia.net is involved. However, as it was explained before, public domain images can be redrawn and a new copyright can be affixed to it. That is what these folks did. You can easily use the images directly from the CNFK and the 7th Fleet or make them yourself (or ask others to do it for you). User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I plan to rewrite the main article that these images appear on and will probably be re-uploading better images. This is just frustrating that people are finding webpages which just happen to show material which also appears on Wikipedia and then automatically assuming that the Wikipedia is in the wrong before researching the facts. -OberRanks 05:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Ober, many of the insignia images we have come from their website. I noticed the problem a few months ago on another sister project of ours and was resolved by just taking DOD images. But, I side with the tagger of the images. We do get a lot of photographs that people misrepresent or omit the source of the license; ditto with the licenses. There are just sometimes that, when we gather a lot of stuff together, many images will be affected. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Are Korean insignia PD per Korean law? Because if they are not, you cannot "redraw" them and attach a free tag to your work which would be a copy of a non-free image. --Irpen 07:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I think most of the images are PD under US law (Image:KoreanSeaman2.gif is a US rank in Korea), but, yeah, so long as the nation's laws state that its PD, then it's PD no matter the source online.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 07:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, then, are the images that are PD by US law magically cease being PD if they are reproduced at a web-site that makes a blanket copyright statement of its entire content? Can I demand the WMF to remove this image if I post it at my web-site along with other stuff I choose to place a blanket "All rights reserved" statement over my site's content? --Irpen 08:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly what some people running websites are thinking and it is a bad situation. We had a problem with another website posting Army medals pictures taken from a government website, as well as pictures of United States Air Force badges, and then saying that he had a copyright on them. This whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth as I have been personally involved with that person and thought it was happening again here. The point is, some website owner cannot all of a sudden declare that he owns the copyright to Korean military insignia just becuase he puts pictures of said insignia on his website. I do admit though the original uploader might have taken them from the insignia website, but it doesnt change the fact that the insignia website took them from the ROK Navy and CNFK. I plan to redo the article and put up better pictures. But, in any case, these speedy delete notices should be removed. -OberRanks 12:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Ober, well, if the designs are PD, then we can make them ourselves and not use their images. I won't personally remove the speedy notices myself, since once we replace each image, it has to be speedied. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 15:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

What do you plan to replace those images with? --Irpen 16:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I can redraw and reupload in a different format so that people will not say the images we are using were copied directly from that website that was discovered. But, as stated before, that website does not hold a copyright on Korean insignia images. They are free for public use per both the ROK military and CNFK. -OberRanks 23:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

If the premise is that images at the web-site are not free you cannot redraw them and release under the free license because your redrawing would be a derivative work of the non-free intellectual property. But if they are free to begin with, there is no need to redraw them since they are usable. Some Wikipedians claim that the images that are PD by US law magically cease being PD if they are reproduced at a web-site that makes a blanket copyright statement of its entire content. I would like to hear what solution they propose to this dilemma. --Irpen 00:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The best bet would be to just get replacement images from a public domain source. If you believe that uniforminsignia.net got them from CNFK, can't we do that too? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 00:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you? --Irpen 00:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly what I plan to do but the images will appear the same since they are, of course, images of the same insignia; the only thing that will be different are maybe the file size and the image format. I also asked someone from CNFK to log on and verify all of this so there will be no problem in the future. I think that should satisfy everyone. -OberRanks 04:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

If they are "the same" except such technicalities as file size and format, they are free to begin with. The web-site makes a nonsense claim similarly to my example above about the Rembrandt image. Let me reiterate, if the images at the site are free, you don't need to redraw them unless you want to make vector graphics file of a superior quality and consider the difference in quality worth of your effort. If we cave in to the nonsense view pushed by some Wikipedia wannabe copyright lawyers and agree that the images have to be deleted because they are non-free, you cannot reproduce them, at least not redraw from the web-site. You would have to obtain the military statute of Korea (in Korean I presume), learn Korean to read it and draw these images from scratch based on the description in these statute. Is that your plan? --Irpen 04:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

What is the argument here? Is it that the website in question simply took these images from a public domain source and republished them? In that case we can get the image from the same source. Or, if the website took the time and trouble to create these images from scratch based on official descriptions, it's all right for us to simply steal their work and ignore their copyright claim? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 06:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I am assuming the later; they took whatever descriptions or drawings and made images from scratch. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Videmus Omnia, please read what I said. I don't know how the web-site obtained its images. I think they are free no matter how they are obtained. You say they are not. I will not spend any more time trying to convince you.

All I am saying is that if we proceed from your assumption (images are not free), redrawing them from the web-site is not allowed because one cannot attach a free license to a derivative work based on a non-free intellectual property. My view is that the images are free and if we need them we can use them. Your view is that they are not free. In that case, the only way to obtain the free images is to learn Korean and do as I said above. If you have other suggestions to the editor who is willing to do the work of redrawing, please give them yourself. I cannot speak for you. Zscout have already redrawn some images of the Ukrainian insignia. Are you planning to IfD them as copyvios? --Irpen 06:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we're talking past each other. If uniforminsignia.net makes a derivative work of a public domain image, and copyrights it, they may well be within their legal rights to do so. However, a Wikipedia can make a derivative work of the same public domain source image and release it under free license. This is what should happen, instead of simply taking someone else's work. We have a big problem with images stolen from that site that we need to clean up before some kind of legal action is taken against the Foundation. I believe everyone involved is acting in good faith, but we shouldn't be taking chances with exposing Wikimedia to legal action when free images can be obtained or made. I know it's easier to just take them from someone else, but it's wrong. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 07:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You did not answer my question. Zscout has redrawn the images uniforminsignia.net because you insisted they are not free. Are you now IfDing his images as well? --Irpen 07:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Irpen, I hope you're not assuming bad faith on my part again, as you did when you reported me at WP:ANI for being "disruptive". I assume Zscout is redrawing the images as a derivative work of public domain images. Images that are derivative of copyrighted works are, of course, copyrighted as well. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 07:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's just wait for what Zach would say on where he was redrawing his images from.

In the meanwhile, I suggest you take a look at two most crucial court cases that are incredibly important for understanding of the concept of the copyright: Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. and Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service

From Bridgeman:

"Even if accurate reproductions require a great deal of skill, experience and effort, the key element for copyrightability under U.S. law is that copyrighted material must show sufficient originality."

From Feist:

"the sine qua non of copyright is originality"

I am just giving you those links as a food for thought so that you may reconsider having to IfD Zscout's work if he used "copyrighted" , as you say, images found at uniforminsignia.net --Irpen 07:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I already saw this argument when you presented it at ANI in regard to the Ukrainian insignia. I defer to Quadell's opinion on that. As be said, it's not up to us to risk legal exposure of the Foundation in borderline cases. (Although the primary purpose of WP:NFCC is not worry over getting sued, but in encouraging the creation of free content.) And I trust Zach to act in good faith and in the interests of the encyclopedia. By the way, has anyone even asked uniforminsignia.net if they'll release their material under a free license? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 07:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I also trust that Zach acted in good faith and in the interest of encyclopedia since he did not think that redrawing images from uniforminsignia.net is the violation of the copyright law (I also think so.) But let's wait for what he says. --Irpen 07:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I have not drawn the Korean Insignia yet. In the Ukrainian images, I do not know where the forum got their information from. But if you still feel the images are risk to have on the site, I will not be hurt or offended if they are arranged for deletion. Honestly, I don't blame the lot of you for anything, but this whole operation really blows now. Half of the work I sent to yall for a good 6 weeks have been fought over, picked at with an axe or banhammer and it is getting not fun to draw anymore. Hell, even Flickr hunting is running me and Irpen into major problems. I'll probably re-evaluate my status here once the Belarus FAC is over. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Official Policy of CNFK

To all above, Oberranks and his supporters are completely correct in what they are saying. Korean military insignia images are free and clear no matter WHO draws them/makes them or WHERE there are published. The Republic of Korea Military, which is the ultimate authority for all of the ROK insignia, has stated OVER AND OVER AGAIN that pictures of their insignia are without copyright and can be used by ANYONE. As far as the website uniforminsignia goes, there are about 12 different sources from which they could have gotten those images, not to mention that North Korean insignia are ineligible for any sort of copyright claim due to the status of their nation and a lack of diplomatic/legal ties with most of the western world. With that said, please understand that it is the official policy of CNFK, with support of the ROKs, that these images CAN BE USED on Wikipedia. If there is any doubt or if even more assurance is needed, post an e-mail address and we will respond to you from a navy.mil account. Thanks you (CNFK N-1 Staff) -59.19.47.188 12:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I am going to check with our legal consul or higher officials to see about the issue. However, we will not take your suggestion to use the DPRK insignia on our server. We have been requested by our founder, Jimbo Wales, to respect DPRK copyright law even though the US Government does not. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I too thank CNFK for the response. This is off subject, but do we really accept North Korean copyright claims? We are talking about a country where it is a death sentence for a normal citizen to view western publications (such as Wikipedia on the internet) and where they run concentration camps worse than the Nazis and view the dictator-leader as if he were a living god. Not to mention they are a state sponser of terrorism and would kill every American who uses this site if they had the chance. Like I said, it is off topic, but the Wikipedia founder might want to rethink that line of reasoning. -OberRanks 03:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we accept the DPRK copyright claims. We accepted Iran's and we have an email from our founder to enforce it. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the point of whether we accept the claims hypothetically is moot. We have confirmed that the images are free of the copyright, and are usable no matter what the web-site where they are reproduced claims. --Irpen 04:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, go ahead and remove the speedy notices for the ROK images. If there were any that were deleted, I will restore them. Keep in mind they are only for the ROK images and not for the other images discussed here. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:51, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't even know what these images are. Videmus Omnia should be now removing his speedy tags and helping identify what images were already deleted due to his errant tagging. Hopefully, he would draw some lessons for his future conduct. --Irpen 05:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. Wikipedia is the better for this discussion. -- But|seriously|folks  05:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

And how? Hours of wasted time and more to be waisted to undo his damage?. And where did I say anything about faith? --Irpen 06:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Because we're hot on the trail of an answer that we can use in future cases. It's not wasted time, it's not damage, it's not errant, and the only lesson to be drawn here is that there are two sides to every argument. We all lose when we fail to recognize that. -- But|seriously|folks  09:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Military insignia of the South Korean Military (assuming by the posting, I would say naval). User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 05:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Dealt with the North Korean insignia on the page; they are not works of the US Government and they are protected by copyright. As for the South Koreans, I just found this and causing me to pause for a moment. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 06:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Mass Deletion of North Korean Iamges

Who in the world agreed to this? When was this ever discussed? What are people trying to do?? The NK rank images on the page came from an insignia comparison chart published by U.S. Forces Korea. The North Korean government never showed up on this site and said they were copyright violations and I even updated the Marshal ranks pages (which have since been deleted!) to reflect the images were PD, US Government, and usable on Wikipedia. I have to wonder why people are willfuly damaging this article. I guess I will have to upload every North Korean rank insignia now from scratch unless someone else can sort this mess out. -OberRanks 11:29, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

OberRanks, you keep stating that these images were produced by the U.S. government but you have yet to provide any links that demonstrate this. The only online version I can find is uniforminsignia.net. Would you please provide links to the U.S. military version of these images so that the copyright status can be verified? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 17:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The NK Ranks were drawn by the uniforminsignia website. So it shows that the source was lied about. Two, we accept DPRK copyright claims, though our government doesn't. If you upload the insignia again, I will delete them again. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The South Korean rank insignia are apparently stolen from the commercial website as well. For example, look at this page and compare our versions of South Korean naval ranks - same file format, same file size. As uniforminsignia.net has a consistent format for all of its created insignia, I find it highly unlikely that we both just happened to get the GIFs of these insignia from a common public domain source. Videmus Omnia ^Talk 19:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

So, CNFK lied to us? Is that what you are saying? Your page on thsi site is quite vivid that you are an Air Force NCO. Are you stating commissioned officers in a major staff headquarters have lied about this? I also point it that it was offered to contact you on a navy.mil e-mail address, something which you never responded to. Please read WP:AGF. -OberRanks 13:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

That is my line of thinking, but I am still going to sit on it. If the images are public domain, maybe Ober or the IP address could scan an US made chart we could use and crop. That is what I might do for Soviet insignia, if needed. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed another problem and this is not your fault Ober; the user who has uploaded the items was blocked from the site due to the problems of his uploads. He claimed public domain for a lot of things that are not and have lied about the sources many times. We had to delete a lot of his uploads, including the images here. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of this problem, Zscout370. Ober, perhaps you could reach out to uniforminsignia.net and request that they license their insignia so we can use them here. That would sure solve the problem. Should you wish to do so, you'll find further guidance here and here. -- But|seriously|folks  03:14, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I had to revert your edits a bit, BSF. Anyways, they do have a forum that we could pose questions to. I searched for an external email address and I could not find one easily. If no one is going to take that step, I will. As for the rest of the insignia here, I am dealing with some of the US one's. I had to get rid of one US image due to the same copyright issues, but I found a quick replacement thanks to a Google Image search. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

No worries, I was just trying to clean up C:CSD a little and it seemed the discussion was still ongoing here. From what I can see, you did the right thing. -- But|seriously|folks  03:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Ober and the IP have another option and just give us a chart they made for the US Government. Then we can scan and edit it to whatever purpose we need. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Shocking

Guys, I am not liking what I am seeing above, espeicaly the line "the south korean insignia were apparently stolen". I have made some personal sacrifices and have made about 6 long distance phone calls to Korea to get this resolved. And a member of the CNFK staff logged on to this site and voluntered to confirm everything I said from a navy.mil e-mail address. Now, all of sudden, things are stolen? Have you read any of this that I've typed? 2 Army O-5s, 1 Navy O-6, and four Korean officers have directly stated to me over the phone "The insignia on Wikipedia are from a comparison chart published by U.S Forces Korea and CNFK and can be used freely". How about a little WP:AGF. I am also sorry if this is harsh, but an Air Force Sergeant and a young 20+ something man from the U.S. do not know more about Korea military insignia copyright law than Army lawyers and Navy JAG officers.

To resolve this, I made another phone call today and asked for the original insignia comparison chart from which these images are supposed to have come. I was told it is a Powerpoint Presentation and was published in 2004 by the Flag Aide to CNFK and that the pictures in it (NK, SK, nd US) all came from South Korean sources released to the U.S. freely. If I get a hold of this, will that make this crowd happy? At this point, with my many efforts discarded and suggestions that people are now lieing and stealing things, I wonder if any amount of evidence will satisfy people. But, I await everyone's reply and will remain in line with WP:CIV. I am sure you all meant no direct harm and are only trying to help. I thank you for your efforts even if I dont personnaly agree with them. -OberRanks 13:39, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no doubt that the U.S. military created some digital version of Korean military insignia. However, I doubt that they created these particular insignia, and I believe that their response is based on a misunderstanding about the issue involved. If the versions they created cannot be found online, then how did uniforminsignia.net get hold of them? Are you saying that this is just some incredible coincidence that the CNFK images happen to be digitally identical to the commercial website's images? Videmus Omnia ^Talk 18:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I am stationed in Korea and have a solution to all of this. We do have insignia charts over here and they were all made by the U.S. and the ROKs. I could send them to O.R. or, even better, to someone on the other side of this debate. I can send it from a .mil account with a statement that it is from the Navy and can be used on Wikipedia. You can then put up whatever pictures you want with the assurance that they are from the U.S. Sound good? -59.19.46.29 03:18, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That can work. I will accept the images. My email is is hidden in this message, so you have to press edit to see it. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I am in Pusan at the moment but will be back in Seoul in three weeks and will send it all then. That would be a good break for everyone involved in this dispute. -59.19.46.29 03:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That is fine. All of the problem images will be gone by then, also. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 03:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The destruction of Template:SouthVietnamWarMedals has shown me that admins will do what they want regardless of how much evidence if presented. I will await the postings of the government insignia images but I'm sure someone will challenge them as well. I could use a 3 week break and will take it now. Best to all of you. -OberRanks 09:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

What evidence? The fact that the US National Archives has a copy of an image is evidence of nothing. It says right in the text of the NARA tag that it is not a copyright tag. Even if the medals are PD, somebody photographed them, and with that somebody unidentified, there is no way to clear those images for use here. -- But|seriously|folks  10:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

At the time Husnock uploaded the images; lack of information was common for photos, even public domain. I personally try to hunt sources and licenses down for the images I deal with. If, in one case it is a public domain ribbon bar, fire up MS Paint and just redraw the image. I believe the US Military has a chart for medals, but I would need to look. As I mentioned before, there are very few admins that even work on copyright issues so the same person you might be yelling/talking to will probably do the deletion. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 15:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Moved from Admin Noticeboard

Zscout and others, we have a challange to our solution. Here is the text. We have 3 weeks until the insignia chart gets here, perhaps we can resolve it by then. -OberRanks 15:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• CNFK does not have rights to release the images anymore than Burger King has the right to release McDonald's rights to their works. As previously noted, any works created by CNFK to display RoK military ranks are derivative works. RoK retains rights that the United States can not release. Only a designated copyright agent of the RoK can release rights to these images compatible with Wikipedia's policies. This is precisely the same kind of argument that Husnock got into regarding Japanese copyrighted works (and lost). --Durin 15:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• • I recommend bringing such concerns up at Talk:Comparative military ranks of Korea. We ended the debate there with the understanding that such an insignia chart would be good for use on this site. -OberRanks 15:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
    • If you pursue this line, and indeed upload such images based on this incorrect clearance, I will see to it that the images are deleted for violating copyright. CNFK does not retain exclusive rights to the images. Further, you've not identified an independently confirmable designated copyright agent for the RoK who has authority to release the ranks images under a free license. Until such time as this is done, no rank images from the RoK can be considered available under a free license for the simple fact that only the RoK has exclusive rights. We do not ask IBM to release Dell's logo rights, we do not ask Burger King to release McDonald's logo rights, we do not ask Ford to release Chevrolet's logo rights, and we do not ask the U.S to release Republic of Korea's image rights. --Durin 15:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
      • During the past week, I was able to get a hold of three senior US officers and four ROk officers. They all told me the same thing that the insignia of the Koreans is released to the U.S. military as free and public images. I was then told that the U.S. has several insignia comparison charts and then it was agreed upon that one would be sent to ZScout. I should add that I spoke to a JAG officer, a Flag Aide, and a Korean PAO. I am sure you are not saying that you know more than they do. Any even if you are, ZScout is supposed to get a signed statement from the navy releasing the images to us from a navy.mil account. I think you could take it up with them when that happens. Thats my two cents. -OberRanks 15:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
        • I am in email contact with Durin on this issue. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 15:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Then the images can be reloaded when proof is supplied to that fact - appeals to authority based on undocumented conversations have never been accepted on wikipedia. Husnock is a navy officer so any emails should be treated with caution and independent verification achieved. --Fredrick day 15:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree regarding the phone call issue which is why we asked CNFK to e-mail out the insignia chart. They responded, as seen above, and we will have it in three weeks. But I'm sure no naval officer would willfully mis-use a navy.mil e-mail account to send false information. That is in fact a very serious crime. -OberRanks 15:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Does that chart indicate that the insignia on it were drawn by an employee of the US Government? Or might it just be a copy of other people's drawings? -- But|seriously|folks  19:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• • • I think this comment from CNFK should be reviewed [1]. It's pretty much exactly what they told me over the phone. -OberRanks 19:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

What comment from CNFK? I see a post from an IP account who could be anyone and claim to be anything. What are we having the same conversation over and over - appeals to authority and "I phoned them, honest" are not accepted sources - you know this. --Fredrick day 19:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The IP originates in Korea, but it could indeed be anybody. -- But|seriously|folks  20:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I did check that - I'm not saying that the guy is not from CNFK but, come on - we are all "long in the tooth" in regards to wikipedia core policy, claims based on "I phoned him" and "I work for organisation X, honest!" have never been acceptable sources and it's a red herring to even get into a discussion about it. --Fredrick day 21:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Crap Copyright Claim

Since you guys went after this article with such fervor, take a look at this [2]. Very obviously taken from a textbook and tis clearly not "original authorship". -OberRanks 13:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)