Talk:Screamo

2005 conversation

I probably wouldn't be of much help in writing anything about screamo but the introduction paragraph, particularly that second half, needs to be re-written. Hoagssculptor 04:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted the entire last part of the page, its an opinion editorial piece, about the degredation of punk culture, not something that belongs in an encyclopedia entry about what screamo music is.

I'm confused here. In 1995, Portraits of Past was considered a hardcore band/"emo"/etc. Yet the people who created this page claim that modern "screamo" bands have no connection to hardcore even if these "screamo" bands are playing music that is identical to the mid 90s emo/hardcore sound? Pg 99 steals so much from PoP style. All of this lacks a consistent logic and denies history. It's just as bad as pop-punk and indie rock being tied to the history of the emo/hardcore scene of the 90s. If some of you bother to go through your back issues of HaC, you'll see the term's sparing use as nothing more than hyperbole. "Chaotic hardcore" indeed. Need we not forget that Orchid wasn't doing anything that Uranus, Drift, and One Eyed God Prophecy was doing years before? This is just sad.

This is ridiculous. I have both Rites of spring, swing kids, embrace, Envy, Saetia, and Thursday, Thrice, and From Autumn Ashes on my Ipod. I know what the genre is now, what it used to be, and I know what bands like Circle take Square are doing. The fact is, like the term Gay, the meaning of the word has changed in modern times. However, the distinction between what most people think of Screamo now, and what people who know what screamo was. Is new screamo is not a movement. Thursday and Underoath do not share the same influences (infact thursday calls Husker Du, and at the drive in influences which are more closeley tied as early 90's emo-core, post hard core ). Rather The term screamo is a catch call phrase that is applied to any band with screamed emotional lyrics, heavey guitars, and use metal core break downs. I've acknowledged this in the article, someone else can clean it up but the fact is guitarworld, and most music magazine call bands like Poison the well Screamo now, whether or not you think its "correct". As a nuetral article this should acknowledge all things screamo refers to or two articles should be made, that talks about Screamo as a movement in the 80s and 90s and now. If nessacary this should... Go to higher ups. Also this article needs citations. Fourfa can be used as a source for most of the article. I've added in the section of what the term screamo is sometimes used for, with out editing the majority of the article. If someone else wants to clean up, my grammar it might be worth it.

stop making things up. Let screamo be what people think screamo is. Let hardcore be what people think hardcore. Music was not meant to be over anaylized in genres, and ripped apart. Just because underoath is "comercial", doesnt mean they arent good. Let music be music and stop over anaylizing everything good there is in this world.-written by a 16 year old girl

"Next, underoath will be Classical music as well, because a group of teenagers will declare it that"

It's not overanalyzation of music at all. Screamo is a specific thing, a specific kind of music. When people wrongly say bands like Underoath are screamo, and then they are told they're not, they all get defensive and say "Genres don't matter anyways." Genres are used to specify a very certain kind of music. Just because your favorite Hot Topic/MTV2 band isn't a legitimate screamo band doesn't mean there isn't a set definition to what screamo is. It just means you don't know what it is. - Firexstorm

Screamo is a very definite genere. It's not "people think it is" it's what it is. This isn't existentialism here. If you don't know any of the listed bands, chances are you don't know what screamo is. Underoath is alternative rock with screaming. That doesn't make them screamo. - Kidgorgeous

I think the most legitimate defense of the use of this genre title is in that all these bands are linked by a shared history, aka Hardcore and specifically pre-Sunny Day Real Estate style emo/emocore (I'm not getting into that destinction). I remember going to a punk party a few years ago and half shamefully admitted I have been mostly been listening to screamo, then probably listed Saetia and Hot Cross. The kid I was talking to laughed and simply laughed, agreed that those bands were good, and said "I listened to screamo when it was still called emo" by which he meant way back in 97 (can we remember that far?) before emo became a mainsteam phenomena. Now I am not saying that a band like underoath isn't punk rock or whatever, I am saying that they have more shared history with a band like Thursday who are called "extremo" or "screamo" in terms of what kind of emo heritage if any I'd give them. I would probably just out and out call them metalcore. Jacib 12:51, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

More importantly this article needs a lot of work, because it is mostly saying what it isn't and then listing bands, without offering context or history. Jacib 12:51, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

If the entire world thinks that Thursday is screamo, except for a few stuck up music genre elitests, then who is right? If everybody calls crap like Atreyu and Throwdown Hardocre even though it's metalcore, then why are they wrong, if EVERYBODY except for a few identify them as hardcore?

So if in another thousand years, after civilizations experiences another dark age, and archelogoists find the ruins of the Sistine Chapel ceiling, and deicde it was a comic book, does that mean it was a comic book? GiveBlood 9:37 AM, July 11, 2005.

This is what screamo was first, and what it still is. Everyone just keeps mislabeling it as something it's not. chainy July 12th, 2005

Surely the person who first coins a word is the person who is using it correctly as they are the person who has come up with the word and the meaning. Therefore Screamo should be a genre defined in sound in the same way today and in the future as it was originally meant. If i was to try and redefine the word "Hello" on wikipedia say as a trem refering to the construction of a tank, I think that their would be great outrage. Therefore why should people feel that they can tell people off for being elitest for being outraged at someone trying to redefine something that means alot to them. Most the people here are only trying to define the genre in the way it is meant to be (the original way) because they are truly passionate about the genre, and don't want to see it warped into something their not passionate about. Plus sub genre names are meant to help people to find very particular styles of music, and these days people are trying to use it to define a very broad range of music which all sound greatly diffrent, and can all be described by other genre names. A) this completely defeats the point of subgenres and B) its a bit greedy to want to use more than one sub genre to describe a band (unless of course their a fusion of genres). -Lester Drake September 14th 2005

this article is written so poorly... that i don't even know how to complete that sentence. by merely following the links (as we wikipedia users do) you will find that there are all sorts of inaccuracies and contradictions in it, as well as the many broken wikipedia rules. should it be deleted? Dreamer.redeemer 22:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I had an idea regarding this page, which I have detailed at Talk:List_of_screamo_groups#What_to_do_with_this_page.21. I was wondering if you could take a look and tell me what you think. I'd like to clean up these articles a lot and I think this might be a step in the right direction. Alexforcefive 22:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"misused very commonly"

If a use is very common, who is to say it is a "misuse" rather than an alternate meaning? What are we, the Académie Punkaise? -- Jmabel | Talk July 8, 2005 17:58 (UTC)

you can call the stuff that comes out of you back end crap or turd, but it doesnt change a thing

ok you guys must have no life coming on to some website talking about whart screamo is and isnt. you guys probally dont know what screamo is you guys are probally one of those posers who go on google and type in screamo bands and how to be emo and follow the instructions but you guys are probally computer geeks and emmo isnt a style its a type of music for all you posers and fags who think emos a stle

"Screamo" is a generic term first used widely in publications such as Heartattack and Maximum Rock N'Roll to describe bands from the late 90's such as Orchid, Reversal of Man, Jeromes Dream, etc. that basically were playing what could be called "chaotic hardcore." Because the term "screamo" is a much better catchphrase for larger publications, it was easily adopted and widely misused by other publications such as Alternative Press, SPIN, etc. to describe bands that basically play either mid-90's style emo/emotional hardcore such as Thursday or even bands such as Atreyu that play dumbed down metallic hardcore. The word "screamo" is a completely stupid term, and one that I would go so far as to call derogatory when attempting to describe the bands that were initially referred to (see above) using this categorization. Nevertheless, the term has long been co-opted for use in the jargon of the general public and as such has lost any significant meaning when used to describe anything. Think of it like this, "grunge" was a word used to describe bands as different as Nirvana and Pearl Jam. It literally holds no meaning anymore, nor did it really ever. By the way, everyone that has posted here previously should seriously stay in school and learn how to use the English language correctly as I assume that is what language you predominately speak. There is a big difference in meaning between there, their, and they're. I saw one of these words used above correctly and then again incorrectly in the SAME SENTENCE. If you want anyone to take your discourse seriously, please learn proper grammar. -Anonymous

let me guess.... all these people critisizeing are like 14 15 16 yrs old. or they just like to argue. it's music you like or you dont like it.

I agree some of the arguing has been biased and what not but you have to realize that it must go through this. This is wikipedia, the final article must be completely neutral and objective, there must be a discussion in order to come to a right conclusion. You can't just erase what screamo is supposed to be and classify it with bands that sound very differently from the original screamo bands, neither can you put "music is music you like it, you like it" or "if everyone says the earth is flat, then the earth is flat!!" on a wikipedia article. It has to be made out of facts, and if there are GOOD -LOGIC- opinions doubting those facts then they should be taken in consideration too. (: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.98.38.154 (talk) 17:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

does majority usage determine meaning?

People who say it does might have a point, but you reduce the term's effectiveness at describing a certain kind of music when you simplify it to being based solely on vocals. As far as I'm concerned if it's not lo-fi it's not screamo. -Liam

Of course it doesn't, it that was the rule then everything with distortion would be death metal or slit your wrist stuff. XdiabolicalX 14:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't, but sadly it does historically. If the majority say pagans are evil non believers and not a word for farmer then guess what? Yeah, as much as its an annoyance I would have to say majority does dictate, however it should be the job of those recording to properly define to re educate the misinformed and point them in another direction. 67.161.166.93 06:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes it shouldn't, but that's basically what's happening with Metal these days, where mainstream bands mixing various styles get passed off as "Metal bands" for their harsh vocals and distorted, heavy riffs, even though most incorporate more hardcore/emo/indie than actual metal. Let me put this another way, since when does Metal ONLY have harsh(scream/growl/screech) vocals. Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Rush, Judas Priest, early Scorpions; definitive metal, no screams there(Metallica is Thrash). My point is that we have sub-genres so a faster shouting type of metal is labeled thrash metal and a less structured, chaotic metal with tortured vocals is called Black Metal; because it deviates from the original genre's meaning by a lot. What I'd like to see on this article, is more band interaction and song structure details. Sure, most emo gives a lot of spotlight to the singer(s), which is fine to mention, but a clear(unbiaised) view as to what the instruments usually do would be good.

"as a kind of crescendo element, a sonic weapon to be trotted out when the music and lyrics (every bit as evolved and autobiographically sincere as emo's were) reach a particular emotional pitch"

See what I mean? Some do not use screams as crescendo, and have that type of singing throughout, while others only as verses, or only in sudden time shifts and yes SOME that use it as a climax of a dynamic singing part. Its not as emotionally linked all the time as this guy claims it, and some emo lyrics are more metaphorical than literate, while other bands write lyrics that don't make any sense on purpose, like psychedelia used to do in the 60s/70s.

Any sourced information?

This article doesn't cite any sources anywhere, and the "screamo being classified as hardcore" section is an editorial page. Since several people have mentioned that the term and its uses has been tossed about in magazines, they should be cited on the article and any claims should be attributed to the sources themselves. I really know and care nothing about punk or hardcore or screamo or any indie subculture whatsoever, but this is a really bad article. It reminds me of the letters section in maximum rock and roll. Wikipedia is not a source for punk point acquisition. Jimmyq2305 00:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Fourfa should be cited now- Oct 2006

Didn't NME invent the term 'screamo' to take the piss out of all the bands who scream badly in their songs?Nightside eclipse 17:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course they didn't. NME is toss. XdiabolicalX 01:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Screamo vs. Hardcore

Hardcore is a chaotic form of music usually incorporating rythem guitar and frentic instuments (drums, guitar, screaming). Whereas screamo has more melodic parts in it which is its affiliation with emo. - Gellister

Hardcore isn't chaotic in the least. Diabolical 14:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

That depends on what genre of hardcore you refer to. Metalcore usually is just frenzied screaming like norma jean whereas Melodic hardcore is obviously melodic. Hardcore Punk is generally chaotic - Gellister

Sign you comments using four tildes ~~~~, Metalcore isn't technically Hardcore, it's Metalcore. Not to mention there are numerous different styles within Metalcore itself which makes it to broad to define specifically. Most Hardcore Punk is simply structured. Screamo is really quite easy to find a simple structure in too. Diabolical 17:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Screamo has hardcore roots it was originally called hardcore emo but then they shortened it to emo... then when emo became the new stuff like Armor for SLeep and Dashboard Confessional (which is called post-indie emo) we transferred the name to screamo so yes screamo has hardcore roots but hardcore is still much more simple. Screamo has a ton of emo elements but nice try. Keep studying. Gellister 18:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)Gellister

No one changed the names, are you trying to say there is some sort of presiding council over Emo & Screamo? Hardcore emo was bands such as Heroin. Emo was used almost 5 or 6 years before these bands started. And you've just made up a new term which doesn't make sense in "post-indie emo", there is however a sub-sect that can be labelled "post-emo indie" though it was in existance from the early 1990s and is not what you elude to. Diabolical 00:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually yeah. I am actually very well studied in the history of emo and I know where all these things come from. Emo was originally what we refer to now as "screamo" because stupid people like you believe that a genre never gets changed in meaning over time (look at what metal is concidered now as opposed to twenty years ago). Emo was orginally from DC and moved to florida and then to San Francisco. It was an offshoot of hardcore that included screaming and soft sung vocals. Then as post-emo indie (I accidentally switched it up earlier) came out in midwest (hence it's nickname mid-western emo) came out and gained it's popularity much more quickly than regular emo so the term "emo" got transferred to mean post-emo indie. Now we refer to what was originally emo as "screamo". Better study up more buddy because i seem to have a lot more behind my facts than you! Gellister 18:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Gellister

Yeah, because Rites Of Spring really sound like what's now called Screamo. Diabolical 21:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately yes that's what most people would call it but I recognize that Rites of Spring falls under other emo related genres (aren't they hardcore emo?). I was just trying to distinguish how people came up with the idea that stuff like Jimmy Eat World and Spitalfield are "emo" becuase history says that they legally are just post-emo indie. Sorry if I offended you I was having a bad day. I'm willing to take knowledge if it seems legit Gellister 22:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Gellister I have what I call "emo days" where I pretty much hate the world and today at school was one. Sorry for the rudeness. Gellister 22:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally I would say that Screamo and Hardcore have a similar relationship as Pop-punk and emo. Of course, in screamo, the breakdowns are used more sporadically. Kung Foo 11:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Opinion Vs. Fact

In my opinion a genre is to be determined by the owner of the CD, or by the band. I don't think you can really specifically LABLE a type of music. When you get into the sub-genre's and shit, then you aren't really getting anywhere... Your just telling me that its a certain type of music.

Itunes likes to try to tell me that AILD (As I Lay Dying) is Alternative & Punk, but I totally disagree. I believe AILD to be a posthardcore, metalcore band.

you can't LABLE music anymore than you can LABLE a person. Rawr I'm Scene. 05:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)Demonhunter10

That's like saying an indie band putting grindcore as their Myspace genre makes them grindcore, but it doesn't. Just because the band is uninformed about their genre, does not make them right. Ambrosia- 16:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

yeah, like the poeple that think that AFI is emo, just cuz of their hair (which isn't emo even)

Discontinuity between articles

There is a disconnect between this article and List of screamo groups. There are bands listed here that are not listed there. On top of that, the east coast scene of the late 90s, early 00s has basically been ignored in this article while listed on the other article (Saetia, Circle Takes the Square, City of Caterpillar, Orchid, etc). Unfortunately, sourcing for this sort of information is hard to come by, and this article already lacks sources.

Also, I feel that the lead should acknowledge the popular appropriation of the term. It isn't wikipedia's place to decide what is The True Screamo when there are verifiable sources labeling pop-bands as screamo. I think having an article about the underground genre is find, but the paragraph about "misconceptions" seems like someone's personal opinion, as opposed to verifiable research.

Finally, the paragraph about rare records seems off topics. It could easily be made concise, maybe a sentence or two. Anyway, just a few thoughts.-Andrew c 00:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Note

I don't know if it matters to anyone who regularly visits this page, but a bunch of screamo band articles recently got pinged as A7's. If this genre intends to continue having much of a presence on Wikipedia, someone is going to have to start digging up some sources on the screamo underground. Chubbles 23:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

origin

i thougth that screamo is something like emocore (emotive hardcore punk) mixed with chaotic hardcore and grindcore —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.30.225 (talk) 17:28, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

TotallyDisputed

I tagged this as factually incorrect because someone has turned it into a fanboy's opinon piece. I guess we're just going to have to wait until the books are published about screamo for this article to be worth a damn. Chubbles 16:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Who would write a book on an obscure hardcore punk subgenre?69.249.253.77 00:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

OR

the page still contains a lot of OR and needs to be sourced. The GUITAR WORLD article may be useful, regardless of its poor writing and factual inaccuracies some which border on WP:REDFLAG. but it does not back up the OR claims and certainly can't remedy the POV problems. --Neon white 00:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

ask

Johntegrity. he knows what needs to be done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.8.59.109 (talk) 20:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

nevermind. i was wrong. it was not his time. others must guide screamo wiki now. farewell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.8.59.109 (talk) 21:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Screamo article plagurized the "Emo" article

Regardless of how short this article is, I noticed that it plagurized the "emo" article. The place where the author describes the "San Diego" hardcore scene and the New York/New Jersey scene and the CBGBs was taken right from the "emo" article, with slight modifications too slight to be recognized as original. Look it up for yourself.

24.2.43.248 (talk) 17:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)Kellentaco

There is no ownership of articles on wikipedia, therefore there can be no plagiarism. Considering screamo has it's historical roots in emo it's no surprise that the articles have similar history sections. --Neon white (talk) 19:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

New to it

So, I was a fan of Hardcore Punk (hardcore or punk for you guys that can't figure that out..) and bands like SSD, Black Flag, and Die Kreuzen. Recently, I got into bands like Saetia, Envy, Circle Takes the Square, Gospel (I think they can be catogorized as screamo, anyway) Iwouldsetmyselfonfireforyou, pg.99 and etc. So, to clear everything up. THOSE are screamo bands. They're are at least four hundred others you can listen to. Most of them are from the mid-90s probably.

Underoath and Thursday are pop-core, a pop post-hardcore genre. But then again, you can also call Underoath metalcore. Still not close to an emo band. So, I just got into it, and I already knew what it was... If stupid scenekids (aka "emo" kids) would stop saying its screamo, they're wouldn't be so much confusion.. 66.204.133.158 (talk) 14:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)Hunter