Talk:Universal Life Church

NPOV dispute

The content of the initial summary is inappropriate and NPOV because it focuses entirely on the ease of becoming ordained by ULC. The summary should, at least, include some mention of ULC's creed, history, and membership. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.85.197.155 (talk) 23:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

added some of the above requested information. source is various ULC literature. JDBlues (talk) 02:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

the new version is satisfactory 76.85.197.193 (talk) 04:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Outdated information about Maryland?

I believe that the statement about Maryland in the "Authority to solemnize marriage and other rites of the church" section may be outdated. I found this link: http://www.northernway.org/marriagelaws.html#MD which states that the rules for performing marriages in Maryland has changed as of 2005.

The text of the actual code from Maryland Family Law Section 2-406 (2) (see http://law.justia.com/maryland/codes/gfl/2-406.html) appears to confirm this.

I am no lawyer, so I do not completely understand the impact of the new code on ULC ministers officiating marriages in Maryland. Can someone more knowledgeable weigh in?

Rocklob 19:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Not sure why exactly your asking here, but a ULC Minister can still solemnize marriages in the State of Maryland since they squarely fit in to:

§ 2-406. (a)(2)(i)  any official of a religious order or body authorized by the rules and customs of that order or body to perform a marriage ceremony

[[1]] is the official state statue page.

JDBlues 22:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok i seen what you were talking about and removed that line of text. JDBlues 22:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

New York Times article has different information

The Sunday New York Times of August 5, 2007 ran a story [2] entitled Great Wedding! But Was It Legal?.

In it, the author (Devan Sipher) asserts that Connecticut, Alabama, Virginia, Tennessee and other jurisdictions, including Las Vegas and some suburbs of New York City, do not authorize ministers to perform weddings unless they lead active ministries. Various officials quoted in the article indicated that prosecution was unlikely but that some such weddings could be challenged in the event of disputes following divorce or death. The article mentioned a case in Suffolk County, NY where a marriage and prenuptial agreement were invalidated by an appellate court. The case is apparently Ranieri v Ranieri, which is cited twice in the reference section of this Wikipedia article but not in the main text.

I am myself a ULC minister and have performed about ten weddings (none in the named jurisdictions). Nevertheless, I am a bit uncomfortable seeing a Wikipedia article with information that (if Sipher is right) may be one-sided.

Larry Tesler 20:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Then edit the article. Just make sure to cite sources. GreenJoe 20:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It is important to remember that none of the people cited in that article actually have the authority to invalidate a marriage or even say who is legally able to solemnize a marriage. Who can and can not solemnize a marriage is determined by State Statue and Case Law. Even Office of the Attorney General Opinions are not legally binding unless upheld by Case Law.

JDBlues 04:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Conn law: http://www.cga.ct.gov/2001/pub/Chap815e.htm#sec46b-22.htm

Sec. 46b-22. (Formerly Sec. 46-3). Who may join persons in marriage. Penalty for unauthorized performance. (a) All judges and retired judges, either elected or appointed, family support magistrates, state referees and justices of the peace may join persons in marriage in any town in the state and all ordained or licensed clergymen, belonging to this state or any other state, so long as they continue in the work of the ministry may join persons in marriage. All marriages solemnized according to the forms and usages of any religious denomination in this state, including marriages witnessed by a duly constituted Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is, are valid. All marriages attempted to be celebrated by any other person are void. (b) No public official legally authorized to issue marriage licenses may join persons in marriage under authority of a license issued by himself, or his assistant or deputy; nor may any such assistant or deputy join persons in marriage under authority of a license issued by such public official. (c) Any person violating any provision of this section shall be fined not more than fifty dollars. (1949 Rev., S. 7306; 1951, S. 3001d; 1967, P.A. 129, S. 1; P.A. 78-230, S. 4, 54; P.A. 79-37, S. 1, 2; P.A. 87-316, S. 3.) History: 1967 act specified validity of marriages witnessed by Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is; P.A. 78-230 divided section into Subsecs., deleted reference to county and reordered and rephrased provisions in Subsec. (a) and substituted "may" for "shall" in Subsec. (b); P.A. 79-37 authorized retired judges and state referees to perform marriages; Sec. 46-3 transferred to Sec. 46b-22 in 1979; P.A. 87-316 applied provisions to family support magistrates. Annotations to former section 46-3: Minister who solemnizes marriage must be "settled in the work of the ministry." 2 R. 382. Ordained deacon performing usual duties of minister held to be authorized. 4 C. 134. A clergyman in performing marriage ceremony is a public officer and his acts in that capacity prima facie evidence of his character. 4 C. 219. Proof of celebration of marriage raises a presumption of its validity. 85 C. 186; 93 C. 47. In absence of proof of authority of justice of peace, marriage void. 129 C. 432. Our law does not recognize common law marriages. Id. Marriage, deficient for want of due solemnization, voidable. 163 C. 588. Annotations to present section: Former section General Statutes (Rev. 1949) S. 7302 cited. 182 C. 344, 348, 350, 352.

See the bolded sections. It states basically that being ordained only is not enough. You must be active in a ministy without defining what they consider a ministry.

Alabama law:

Section 30-1-7 Persons authorized to solemnize marriages. (a) Generally. Marriages may be solemnized by any licensed minister of the gospel in regular communion with the Christian church or society of which the minister is a member; by an active or retired judge of the Supreme Court, Court of Criminal Appeals, Court of Civil Appeals, any circuit court, or any district court within this state; by a judge of any federal court; or by an active or retired judge of probate.

(b) Pastor of religious society; clerk of society to maintain register of marriages; register, etc., deemed presumptive evidence of fact. Marriage may also be solemnized by the pastor of any religious society according to the rules ordained or custom established by such society. The clerk or keeper of the minutes of each society shall keep a register and enter therein a particular account of all marriages solemnized by the society, which register, or a sworn copy thereof, is presumptive evidence of the fact.

(c) Quakers, Mennonites, or other religious societies. The people called Mennonites, Quakers, or any other Christian society having similar rules or regulations, may solemnize marriage according to their forms by consent of the parties, published and declared before the congregation assembled for public worship.

Tenn, NYS, and VA are already discussed in the article with Tenn only being an OAG opinion (not legally binding), while NY and VA have case law that clearly shows that ULC ministers that are just merely ordained by the ULC can not solemnize and North Carolina is at best unclear of where or not the curative law only covered up to the specified date or infact included beyond. JDBlues 04:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

This link is relevant to the article

Just because I'm anonymous doesn't mean my edits should be disregarded

Universal Life Church Monastery is totally relevant to the article as it points to one of their branches. I looked over the policy and saw I was not in violation of anything 68.239.144.138 19:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The Monestary isn't affiliated with the ULC. GreenJoe 19:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Besides, if we list this one, we have to list them all and Wikipedia isn't a links repository. GreenJoe 19:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

More to the point, it's not a particularly notable branch of the church; therefore, the link doesn't warrant inclusion. —C.Fred (talk) 20:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

As GreenJoe pointed out the ULC Monastery is not only not a branch of the ULC, it is it's own organization with it's own leadership and independent ordainment process and record keeping. This make's it far differant then say www.ulc.net or www.ulcseminary.org that both fall under the ULC for ordination and maintaining the records of those ordinations. Yet neither of those are linked becuase Wikipedia isn't a links repository. If anything the ULC Monastery would qualify for it's own article provided it is notable enough and has enough infomation to provide more then just a stub. JDBlues 21:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

There needs to be something in the article to explain what the ULC Monastery is - because it's REALLY unclear from the web sites of the organizations what this split is about, and what the difference between the two organizations is. Neither seems to be willing to discuss the other, so this must have been some sort of split on differences. Maybe the Monastery needs its own article, with a "see also" here - but something needs to be done to explain the differences between the two organizations who claim to be the Universal Life Church. I can't make the change, as I don't know the answers - but someone here must. XeroxKleenex 16:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I actually agree with you on this. I too don't know what it's over. However, it needs to be verified if added in. GreenJoe 16:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[3] this link might explain it as well as the current lawsuits between the two folks claiming ownership of the ULC Monastery [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by JDBlues (talk • contribs) 12:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Ky OAG opinion

While the law was infact repealed in 1996 proper source, the linked OAG opinion is still valid and historically correct. The section does not denote current laws, but opinions issued by various OAG's in regards to the ULC. Further, the OAG opinion further defines what it feels a minister is in context of KRS 402.050 which has NOT been repealed.

JDBlues 02:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Monastery info needs clarification

George Freeman did not take over the ULC Monastery in a bloodless coup. The real ULC Monastery continues to exist in Tucson, Arizona, and per AZ Secretary of State records, is still presided over by Daniel Zimmerman. Freeman did steal his domain name and coopted the name ULC Monastery and site design elements, and is making obvious efforts to confuse site visitors into thinking that it is the same place as well as giving the impression that it is the actual ULC (through the use of meta tags, pay per click adverstising, and statements made on the home page.

Zimmerman has sued Freeman in federal court and has made several criminal allegations against him as well. The case won't likely reach trial until at least 2008 however.

While all of this is probably too much information and confusing to those unfamiliar with the case, the facts as they are presented in the article are incorrect. The Seattle incarnation of the ULC Monastery is something entirely different from the Arizona Monastery, just as it is separate from the ULC itself.

Nikita24 18:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Nikita, as cited about the coup was bloodless, Mr. Freeman was a member of the Board of Directors of the Tuscon Based ULC Monastery and the Board did vote to remove Mr. Zimmerman from the Presidency and the Board and filed it with the State of AZ.

Below you will find the minutes of this meeting:

“ MINUTES

To: Daniel Ray Zimmerman From: The Board of Directors Subject: Minutes of the August 4, 2006 Board Meeting Date: Saturday, August 12 ,2006 cc: Chapin, Freeman, Vogt (conference call)

Universal Life Church / ULC Monastery Inc.

Basis for Discussion: Memorandum dated Tuesday August 4, 2006 Length of Discussion: 2.5 hours (estimated) Board members present: Daniel Chapin, George Freeman, Jeffrey Vogt, Board members absent: Daniel Ray Zimmerman Staff in charge of topic: George Freeman Other staff at Board table: none Outside participants: Lane Rasberry, Trygre Jones

Summary of Decisions Reached: Immediate Removal

Topic: Daniel Zimmerman has committed fraud during his financial mismanagement of the Universal Life Church /ULC Monastery Inc. His physical and mental condition has rendered him incompetent to function. He has behaved in such an outrageous manner which is unbecoming for a member of this Board. His criminal activities have damaged the reputation of this church. Thus, for the reasons stated here and below, he is removed as President, Board member, and of any and all other capacities as an officer in this corporation. He is ordered by this Board to provide a full accountability of all files on the church's financial expenditures. His failure to produce all records which includes all credit card records will terminate this board’s decision to allow him to remain at the church property residence, located at 2159 S Sky Tanner Drive, Tucson AZ.

Findings:

1. Daniel Zimmerman, on or about November 19, 2005, made comments directed at customer service attendants of Park Place Mall in Tucson. Daniel Zimmerman made threats to those present as well as other mall patrons that "...he could blow this place up along with all the other stores and that he doesn't care because he is dying anyways..." (See Tucson City, Case Number: M-1041-CR-5087549). He has used unauthorized funds from this church’s bank account to pay his private attorney to defend his criminal conduct. Case Number: M-1041-CR-5087549 Case Category: Criminal Case Title: ST of AZ vs. ZIMMERMAN DANIEL R Court: Tucson Municipal Court Judge: HON WENDY A HERNANDEZ Filing Date: 11/22/2005 Disposition Date: Party Name: DANIEL RAY ZIMMERMAN 2159 S Sky Tanner Drive, 85748- Tucson AZ ,5801 Party Type: D 1 - DEFNDT/RESPNDT Date of Birth: 11/22/1948

1. 2. Daniel Zimmerman, on or about January 13, 2006, misused the churches banking institution Chase Bank in an attempt to deposit stolen counterfeit checks. This act was done after he had been told by Tucson Chase Bank (account 661794578) that the check he attempted to deposit was no good. He furthered this illegal action by depositing the counterfeit check in an ATM. In the planning stages of this scheme he surreptitiously had the church's Seattle attorney draft a POA for his accomplice Gary Lee Munroe a/k/a ”The Shaman”. Continuing his effort to defraud other financial institutions, he instructed the church's Seattle attorney not to speak to board member George Freeman regarding the POA and its purpose. He has used unauthorized funds from this church’s bank account to pay his private attorney to further this criminal enterprise scheme.(see forged Reagent Chemical & Research Inc. check #3623527)

3. Since taking control of the website and operations of the bookstore, George Freeman has repeatedly asked for copies of financial statements, corporate reports, and accountability documents which are required under the laws of Arizona for not-for-profit organizations. Daniel Zimmerman has continued to refuse to allow any board member to review any documents pertinent to the financial affairs of this institution.

4. Daniel Zimmerman has a practice of using his own person credit cards for payment of church expenses in order to secret his transactions form this board. He then pays his personal credit card bills with money from the ULC Monastery Tucson Chase Bank account 661794578. Since February 2005 Zimmerman has used numerous (15-20) personal credit cards for his and this church’s business.

5. On Tuesday August 1, 2006, Reverend Zimmerman ordered the church’s webmaster Josh Stottlemyer to turn off the website which has resulted in the Seattle office not being able to attend to the needs of the members of the church who request services. Many customers’ monies and donations have been taken without the just compensation that the website promises.

6. Daniel Zimmerman’s stated reasons for disabling the site is in a letter and voice recordings by Qwest message center (see CD of voice recordings). He claims that the operating costs of the material and staff exceeded his personal expectations and that he has to tap his savings accounts. This board was never told about any personal or corporate savings accounts. Zimmerman refuses to elaborate as to how ceasing all business will result in a future increases in sales.

7. He has also called and fired Owen & Co. CPA’s hired by Freeman to pay sales taxes to the City of Seattle for items sold in the City of Seattle. Records show that twenty-four months ago, the purchase of supplies for this website, when managed by Amy Long, was $12,011 dollars for the month of July, 2004, which did not include any payroll wages and the purchases made in Tucson by Br. Daniel in 2004. This Board has concluded that Daniel Zimmerman at that time had higher production costs for operating the website than in 2006 when operated by Rev. Freeman.

8. Further, ULC headquarters in Modesto California charges a fee for degrees and credentials as sold on the ulc.org website. Brother Daniel has refused to pay Modesto for the items we have sold and has claimed that he did not know that the $50,000+ monthly sales of numerous degrees and credentials were being sold, nor was he aware that as the sole administrator of funds he had an obligation to pay Modesto for their services rendered. In Reverend Freeman's conversation with Andre Hensley, Br. Hensley acknowledged that Br. Daniel has been stalling payments to Modesto, and also has had full knowledge for the past three years of the debt which he owed to Modesto for materials sold.

9. Reverend Zimmerman has on numerous occasions spoken with church members, employees, and merchants in such an inappropriate manner that Zimmerman has placed this institution under liability of sexual harassment litigations. He has made sexual innuendos to the college age Seattle staff and demanded that Rev. Freeman install cameras on the desktops of the young male workers so that he could “watch them”.

10. Lewis King, employee of the Seattle Branch of the ULC Monastery Inc., stated that Daniel Zimmerman has told him over the phone that he should routinely feel his testicles in the shower. He has made similar suggestions to former employee Jeffrey Vogt. Because of his special interest in King, Zimmerman has stated (see CD of voice recordings) that King will always be on Zimmerman’s payroll, even if King does not do any beneficial work and stays at home.

11. Because the church’s income depends on the functionality of the website at www.ulc.org, the board of directors hereby orders the webmaster to return full control of the site and deny and refuse any and all internet and voice access or conversations from Daniel Zimmerman. Should a temporary restraining order be needed directing Josh Stottlemyer of the Helix Group to implement this order, then the cost of such litigation is to be recovered by legal action against the Helix Group. Full control of website will be assigned to the Seattle Fulfillment Center and it shall remain under the control and directions of the Seattle office until such time as the board directs otherwise.

12. This board realizes that the property at 2159 S Sky Tanner Drive, Tucson AZ 85748-5801 is owned by this church and allows Daniel Zimmerman residence therein. However, in his inability to function mentally, he has allowed addicted drug users to remain and live on the property, along with allowing access to and use of church funds. As a result of Br. Zimmerman actions, police incident records on the property have been created as to the removal of these people.

13. Br. Daniel has defrauded the Social Security(see Zimmerman’s hand written letter In re: Investigator Danny Torres, of Social Security) and Medicare system by not disclosing that he and only he has had access to the donations and income given to the church, which he has used for his own benefit. Br. Daniel maintains that he is paid one dollar in salary, where in fact he has paid his immediate family and others for services that do not benefit the church. When asked for copies he has refused and became agitated, further claiming that he has the right to remove various members of the board because he is the sole authority under the laws of the state of Arizona his vote is a prime vote. He further maintains that his creation, the Book of Covenants, is a back door which allows him to interpret the laws and regulations for this institution, and that not even the IRS can interpret his meanings, and that the Book of Covenants [he] created in writing as it was revealed to [him] in the desert, [sic] and the IRS cannot say anything at all regarding his legal and tax related decisions.

Decisions:

14. The ULC Monastery is a not-for-profit organization which generates gross sales in excess of $500,000 a year. As a non-profit organization the ULC Monastery is required to comply with various state statutory regulations in regards to properly managing all funds that it generates. This board engages Owen & Co, PS a CPA company to determine the extent of ULC Monastery’s violations and determine what actions are needed to be undertaken to bring this church into good standing and consistent with all governmental regulations. .

15. Wherefore, in order to better serve and preserve our institution, and look towards the future, it is the joint belief of this Board that Reverend Daniel Zimmerman is removed from all positions and capacities in the Universal Life Church / ULC Monastery Inc. He will have no authority to conduct any business for this corporation whatsoever. He retains his title and standing as an ordained minister.

16. In compassion, recognizing his past good contributions and given his deteriorating physical and mental condition, this Board finds that Br. Daniel shall be allowed to remain in the church's property at Sky Tanner, and further shall be responsible for all utilities, taxes and repairs not covered by insurance on the property. He shall be required to maintain an active insurance policy which names this church as a co-insured party. He is to allow for inspection of the property with photographs within the next twenty days by the assigns of this Board. Further, should Br. Zimmerman contest this resolution in any way whatsoever, this provision authorizing his use of the residence will be automatically revoked.

17. After consultation with all governmental health support agencies he is to be given a reasonable stipend to be considered by the Board after Reverend Zimmerman submits a complete account of his current financial obligations.

18. This board feels that it is necessary to ask Arizona governmental entities to review and assess our church and inform this Board of any possible outstanding liabilities. Chase Bank One Account # 661794578 Universal life Church/ULC Monastery is to be served a notice of this document upon filing and freeze all funds until Owen & Co; CPA’s designate as to how this account will function. All incoming checks are to returned or held pending instructions from Owen & Co, CPA’s @ 206-285-2899/Fax206-284-4311.

19. Daniel Chapin and George Freeman have designated the following positions to be filled: Jeffrey Vogt to be Secretary. Daniel Chapin assumes to office of Vice President. George Freeman assumes the office President and CEO. This board has appointed Trygre Jones as a member of the board of directors along with George Freeman. Presiding:

Rev. George Freeman, Pres., CEO 2030 Dexter N. Seattle, WA 98108 206-478-9500

cc. via: USPS Certified Mail sent to Br. Daniel Zimmerman 2159 S Sky Tanner Drive Tucson AZ , 85748

bcc Arizona Corporation Commission 1300 West Washington Phoenix, AZ 85007-2929

IRS Tucson 300 W. Congress Tucson, AZ 85701

Office Of The Attorney General 400 W. Congress South Building, Suite 315 Tucson, Arizona 85701-1367

Barbara LaWall Pima County Attorney’s Office 32 North Stone Suite 1400 Tucson, Arizona 85701

FBI Suite 400 201 East Indianola Avenue Phoenix, Arizona 85012-2080

Prosecutors Office 100 E. Alameda Tucson, Arizona 85701

Corporations Division PO Box 40234 Olympia Wa. 98504-0234

”

The AZ Corporation Board had for a period accepted this document and made Mr. Freeman the President, but later reversed thier postion as " "accepted in error" and re-enstated Mr. Zimmerman. Mr. Freeman upon gaining control of the Tuson based ULC Monastery, moved it's official location to Seattle. Further Mr. Zimmerman is not currently in good standing with the ULC Monastery in AZ. It is a true and correct fact that Mr. Zimmerman has several lawsuits pending against Mr. Freeman as noted in a link above and in the sources listed below.

Given the above, it was infact a bloodless coup. The legality of said coup is still pending legal action.

Sources

• Star
• US District Court Docket
• Corp Lookup
• WA Corp Lookup

JDBlues 23:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The Monastery is nothing but a fraud, all they want is your money. It should not be a non for profit organization, that is just a way for Mr. Freeman to get more of a profit. "Support the ULC Legal Defense Fund - Make a Donation" Dont give them a penny, they are nothing but con artists. They want to raise money to help keep the theft of the organization from going back to Daniel Zimmerman.

Haloblack 07:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

once and for all

So i have research many ULC churches

So one email from a well known one - that was recieved . goes forth as such

Okay. Let's see if I can cover this. ulc.net doesn't speak for the church, but they are authorized to sell all of the church's materials. We are not 'authorized', which means they won't sell us their materials at wholesale.

What it takes to be authorized is that headquarters agrees.

They are hesitant because there was such a problem with the ulc.org site. And yes, headquarters will accept all ordinations sent to them, but I put it in there because a lot of people don't understand it as well as you do. I got a lot of emails about whether our ordinations are sent to headquarters, so I put it in the faqs. The only legal material provided is the credential and that's sent from headquarters. The rest of our materials are not 'legal', but are valid in that the certificates meet the requirements of certificates in the different states and the rest of the materials are also just fine. People have asked, so I'm confirming for them that the materials are acceptable.

hmmm the ulc.org site used to speak for the church, the ulc.net is a bookstore, the ulcseminary.org is just trying to follow suite... So every other site is just a copy everyone else, so heres a list

complimets of the dmoz (which is just a fraction of the sites out there !)

Angel Goddess Ministry - The Church of Ju-Jitsu Janissaries of Saturday Saints - The Church of the Good Life - International Council of ULC Ministers - Officiating Weddings - PanZen Ministry - Pastor Jack J. Stahl, D.D. - Progressive Universal Life Church - Rational Universal Church - The ULC Jedi Sanctuary - Universal Life Church Minister's Association - Universal Life Church of Great Barrington, MA - Universal Life Church of Michigan - Universal Life Church of the New Age - Universal Life Church WebRing - Universal Life Chutch Seminary - Universal Ministries - Universal Natural Life Church - Yahoo Group: The Universal Life Church -

So to end all arguments just include every ULC site on the internet in this wiki, as they all are a part of the Universal Life Church, they are all ULC, the creed of the ULC is to do that which is right?! Right? assuming that from every website that stamps the word ulc on something...Since by doctrine, headquaters MUST authroize all ordinations sent to them!! And well you just might not get them to give you a "wholesale deal on the products they sell"

Since the fundamentals of being ULC minister give you the right to start a church, marry people, do all that a "minister" is legally able to do. Why is it that there is so much controvery over all this anyhow. Seeing as how there is no real head of the church, every branch is equal, there is no head master, there are no deacons, there are no bishops there are no popes!!!

go out side, calm down, take a valium or two, jesus!

Subgen (talk) 09:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I am failing to see your point. J (talk) 12:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

my point is that is if you want to use this wiki as a definition of what is the ULC, then you should include every website that is apart of the "Universal life church" umbrella! As any edit made to the main page is instantly reverted back, it like there is a strangle hold on even including any link to any other site but the ulchq.com “which isn’t even the head quarters because there is no "REAL" headquarters. It’s an open religion, not like the Vatican or a religion that has a central location. As a minister of the Ulc, I can start my own church, which falls under the "universal life church". Would my website be included in this?

J - im sorry that you dont understand what im saying, Perhaps i shouldnt feed the trolls on this one. I should just ask for page protection when any edits are made? The wiki should not be Monopolized for anyone single editors personal needs or goals. Subgen (talk) 09:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The ULCHQ, of which there is actually one, can and does refuse ordination request on a regular basis. Further they also refuse to take ordinations for specific sources (like from the ULC Monastery). Further, it is against Wikipedia's policy to just list every website WP:NOT#REPOSITORY. Much like any other denomination, the Catholic, Baptist, what have you page does not list ever church that is aligned under it or operates as a similar church with a similar name like the Independent Catholic Union for example. They list the history of the main organization. Just as the ULC Wiki currently does.

JDBlues (talk) 15:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's the problem, Subgen. We can't list every ULC member congregation or every organization that uses the ULC name. There are simply too many of them, and Wikipedia isn't a repository of links. The best we could do is to link the dmoz category that is related. The article details with the "main" ULC because they're certainly notable. The others are not, and there most certainly is a HQ, that's who keeps records of everyone who has been orained.

Hope this helps. J (talk) 17:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Removal

So I understand that this page is for the ULC HQ only, that fine then why does the main page reference the split with The Monastery?

That is not a relevant topic as you so clearly point out with you previous entry.

That topic has no basis on the Universal life church, since you say that this is not a Wikipedia isn't a repository of links. Which I agree it should not be that information is not at all relative to the topic at hand.

Therefore if there are no objections it will be removed.

Further more to back this future edit: the records in Arizona show that Zimmerman, Freeman, and Chaplin, were the original incorporators of the Monastery and that they have been board members since 1999.

Since no single person can own a not-for-profit corporation! It could not be stolen! Freeman directed the website from Seattle.

“the minutes of this meeting: “ posted in this page clearly shows that Freeman and Chaplin, under the emergency powers granted to all corporations removed Daniel Zimmerman for criminal conduct and behavior. Simply put - The board of directors FIRED Daniel Zimmermann.

So why even mention Freeman or even better, why are you demonizing him in the wiki? WP:EQ

The board of directors FIRED Daniel Zimmermann, thus removing him from the board, that is not a bloodless coup. Thus making the selection of split with the Monastery a null and non valid point for it to even be noted here. Along with the residing foot notes that are just personal and slanderous attacks of character. WP:ATTACK

Subgen (talk) 02:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The Monestary event is notable. If it isn't neutral in tone, feel free to edit it. J (talk) 04:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm.....lets talk criminal shall we ? Maybe we should bring up the person making criminal allegations against one another, and see if hes credible.

http://publicinformation.seattle.gov/cpi/smc.publicInformation.search.action.case.caseNumber.action?caseNumber=389414

Mr. Monastery owner arrested in '00 for Indecent Exposure. Or maybe http://publicinformation.seattle.gov/cpi/smc.publicInformation.search.action.case.caseNumber.action?caseNumber=387940 Arrested for driving on a suspended license. Or maybe http://publicinformation.seattle.gov/cpi/smc.publicInformation.search.action.case.caseNumber.action?caseNumber=340286 Charged with obstructing a public officer.

As somebody who used to work for the fraud that is "The Monastery". I can safely say Mr. Freeman is one of the biggest con artists I've ever met. And to his office staff who I know will be reading this. Why don't you wake up, and look why hes hired you. He only hires young attractive people. Further more hes told me personally he would have sex with all of you. If he wouldn't have sex with you he wouldn't hire you. Thats how he runs the "non for profit" corporation that is "The Monastery". It is very sad that he is able to exploit peoples religious beliefs for profit. Brdennis 23:17, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Brdennis When was the last time you went to a resturant and saw an ugly server? People are hired all the time based off of looks. How about we throw in your crimal record to? Perhaps explain to people why you were let go? Your personal bias toward Mr Freeman have no basis here... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Subgen (talk • contribs) 05:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah you see. Subgen here works for "The Monastery". Which is something we already knew. I'm not the biased one here, I don't get paid by George like you do to sit here on Wikipedia and defend him. Which is something he pays people to do, and discussed with me. As somebody who used to edit Wikipedia for George I know how this game works Subgen, why don't you ask Lane Rasberry about Geroge, and all the lies and criminal things he saw him do. You are so blinded by his charsima you don't see the truth. And yes, I have a felony on my record from when I was a juvenile, I'm not hiding that fact. I'm also not running a "non for profit" corporation. George has a mile long record of legal battles that dates back to the 80s. And bringing up the server thing, is just laughable. There is no public relations person, no front office to "The Monastery". In fact, he hides the address of where the "office" is because its his personal residence. He uses a "Suite" at the post office, aka a mail box. To hide the location of the "office". I've got nothing to hide here, George has everything to hide about his exploitation of religious persons to make a profit.

I'm available to tell the truth to you Subgen, If you want to listen to me. Why don't you stop listening to George for a second and think for yourself. Instead of having him do it for you. 83.233.181.104 (talk) 19:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Brad, as i see it, yes i work for George, however, that is irrelevant when speaking of facts. Which NO ONE here seems to be concerned with FACTS not opinions. I have seen documents from the state of California and Arizona, which back up my statement, i am not a puppet. My facts are in order, and I can prove what i have stated, and i full stand behind them. That is not being blinded by anything, i am not BLINDED by my own personal anger towards anyone... as with my own eyes, everything that i have stated, Which can all be backed up with documents. I dont give a crap about your record, georges, or anyones. That has nothing to with this article, there are many people in power and people who run business that have records. BIG DEAL, and you know as well as i do that i am right on that point. So i care less about about Georges record, and even less about yours... So for you and the other editor of this page who are disillusioned to think that you own this article. You dont! nor do i. I just want to include information that is NOT BIASED / slanderous / or derrogitory. i dont want to cause vandalism, remove out information from the page, or remove the other links to the sites, leave them in, say what you want. However blatant slander i dont think falls within the WP:EQ The facts that i have presented are real. if you are going to say that George is exploiting anyone. You cant forget all the other ulc churches !! Where as what you are saying is hearsay, personal opinion and biased.if the shoe were on the other foot I would defend you, based solely on facts, i you have facts to back up your words, i would back you up as well, hell i would defend anyone that was being slandered.

You DONT OWN this page Subgen (talk) 01:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You are getting paid to edit this Wikipedia article, specifically to support one persons view point. That violates Wikipedia policies on NPOV. I've not said anything that isn't true, therefore it is not slander. I have yet to see any proof of anything so far you've claimed. I'm not going to continue discussing this matter on Wikipedia, because it is getting too far off topic. But nothing I've said isn't true. Why do you think George removed my post about his criminal record, within 12 hours of myself posting it. He's hiding everything, and censors everybody who disagrees with him. This isn't his personal page, we speak the truth. I personally think you should be blocked again from editing for Wikipedia for now admitting what we already knew. You are violating Wikipedia's NPOV. And should not be allowed to post on this article.

Brdennis (talk) 02:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

it is notable in that "The Monastery" was in communion with the ULCHQ up until the recent split. Additionally given the confusion even with in the mainstream media outlets as to which site is the real (orginal) ULC, with many incorrectly citing ulc.org and "The Monastery" as well as claims on "The Monastery" website that are deceptive in nature as to thier orgins and standing within the the ULC. Some of these statements include using Kirby Hensley's name, the name ULC, as well as dates and data associated with the ULC HQ as thier own.

JDBlues 02:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Again that is not a notable event as there is no mention of any other churches that were involved with the ULCHQ.com. or as you so put it the (orginal) ULC. As previously stated, there is NO HEADQUATERS, us the left over second corporate after the first one went bankrupt! The second corporate that they opperate under is NOT the one founded by Kirby, so it is not the (Original), Please double check your facts before you post, absurd information. : As under the CREED of the ULC, any one may start a church. All of Kirby's material may be used by anyone, as well as using the name of the ULC. The main stream media has nothing to do with anything here. As cited on their website, they do say that:

Brother Daniel and his staff continued the fight for religious liberty even to the point that only his motivation and the Grace of God relieved his ailing personal health and postponed his retirement. In August of 2006 Brother Daniel received wisdom to recognize that the church at ulc.org had become the nationally-recognized vanguard of religious rights’ preservation, and that his part in ULC history was complete. The church is now managed by an elected board.

The headquarters for the Universal Life Church Monastery in Seattle legally ordains more persons in any given month than any other church anywhere in the world. Furthermore it has directed the legal ordination process of more persons than any other church in history. We are poised to champion the underdogs and the oppressed just as church legacy would dictate. There simply is no other national church with the proven history of devotion to ministers for the sake of their own ministries; we want to meet your needs now and bless your calling, whether you intend to change the world or to simply officiate a wedding for your loved ones in your capacity as a legally ordained minister.::

As I have proven my point, the Split with the monastery, I will remove as it is not related or is it notable. Subgen —Preceding comment was added at 00:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Removing material is vandalism, and I will be giving you a warning. There is a HQ, the one currently operated is the one that Kirby used to run before he passed away. Remove the material again, and you will be blocked. GJ 00:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a HQ, it is in Modesto, California, run by Kirby's son. The Monestary is notable for their split. End of story. GJ 00:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear GJ obviously you dont know what you are talking about, the so called HQ that is in modesto is a DIFFERENT COPRORATION, it is not the ORIGNIAL COPRORATION. THE ORGINAL CORPORATION HAS SINCE BEEN DISSOLVED. CHECK FOR YOUR SELF. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=9th&navby=case&no=9615122o Lets add that information into the wiki as well since obviously you are the ruling dicator here. As you have not responded to any of the request that i made saying it was not notable, you are commiting vandalism. Thus i must report you.*GreenJoe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Removing that information was not an act of vandalism, as it was a good faith edit. As they the information presented is a null and non valid point for it to even be noted here. Along with the residing foot notes that are just personal and slanderous attacks of character. WP:ATTACK

Subgen 02:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Be that as it may, the HQ is the "real" ULC that accepts ordinations under the ULC banner. You need to learn to assume good faith. I see you doing nothing but attacking me. GJ 03:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

GJ I am not attacking you, i do assume good faith, as i have posted numberous times that i was going to remove that content. There was no response. Once done, you call me a vandal. I am making no attacks on your person. As the information, that you are so heartily trying to keep here is not notable nor is it realvant. PEROID.

The board of directors FIRED Daniel Zimmermann, thus removing him from the board, that is not a bloodless coup. Thus making the selection of split with the Monastery a null and non valid point for it to even be noted here. Along with the residing foot notes that are just personal and slanderous attacks of character. WP:ATTACK HOW many times must i say that.. That is fact. Subgen 03:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It's the only ULC former congregation to make public news in their split, thus it's notable. It may not be a bloodless coup, if you have better wording, rather than remove the entire statement, edit it. However, make sure whatever you put in is neutral. GJ 03:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

GJ Does this statisfy neutral? Subgen 04:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Split with the Monastery

Previous to the removal of Daniel Zimmerman from the Board of Directors,in a phone interview with By Rev. Kara Mueller with the ULC representative Br. Daniel Zimmerman,Stated each individual and Universal Life Church is an entirely separate entity from the original Universal Life Church in Modesto, California and is responsible for its own affairs. Due to Daniel Zimmerman's fraudlent activities he was removed from the Board of Directors During the summer of 2006 Daniel Zimmermans was removed from the board of directors and The Monastery. The Board of Directors appointed George Freeman to run The Monastery.

As the reason for the split was that the IRS denied Modesto’s church tax exempt status in 1969 and again in 1970 on the grounds that the Hensley family was engaging in activities outside the religious activities contemplated by IRS’s 501©(3) . They were buying and investing in real state in violation of federal law. The IRS’s revocation action was based on the fact that the net earnings of the Modesto “Church” were privately benefiting the Hensley family who now run the private corporate enterprise called (Universal Life Church Inc. & its website). The federal government held that the activities of the church and affiliated organizations were conducted to privately benefit the Hensley’s “church” insiders. Further, that the Modesto church engaged in advising its members on how to tax evade taxes which is why Zimmerman was sentenced in a 35 page criminal indictment to 8 yrs at Leavenworth see, At that time the Hensley’s were “investing church funds” in the operation of a residential construction and varied real-estate business deals. As a result they failed to pay $6 million in back taxes. It is not common for a church to be a “business corporation” as the ULCHQ is now. The IRS doesn't seem to think it is neither. This is why they IRS removed Modesto's status as a non-profit corporation. Modesto is a business, they are not a church.

It's less neutral than I would hope. If you're going to sling mud, you can't forget George Freeman himself and his misdeeds. Your statement could be a lot more neutral. GJ 04:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Its neutral, the facts presented are real, and they are verifiable, unlike stating it was a bloodless coup. Which is just a matter of opinion. Subgen 04:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It conveniently leaves out Freeman's own criminal record. GJ 04:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It also slings a lot of mud at HQ rather than presenting the facts in a neutral tone. It's pretty biased. GJ 04:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

What does Freemans record have anything to do with the ULC? The information is not mud slinging, it true. If you want to include the split, then the reason behind the split should be listed as well.Subgen —Preceding comment was added at 04:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Beside that the WP:EQ say that we are to Argue facts, not personalities.

Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views (more at wp:NPOV), instead of supporting one over another, even if you believe something strongly. Talk (discussion) pages are not a place to debate value judgments about which of those views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis. Use article talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy. Subgen 04:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Freeman's criminal record has everything to do with the Monestary, he runs it now. You can't pick and choose with "facts" to conveniently include or not. You're violating your own rules. That entire "section suggestion" is your own soapbox and your own vendetta. I'm going to take a break from discussing this now. GJ 05:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Take your break i understand this is making me upset as well. The section that i suggested, was just because the this wiki page is being used as a link repositoy, there are no other links to any of the ULC churches, as they are all a part of the "ULC" but in that they are their own seperate entity, as you should know. The only mention of any other church, is the monastery, because you say it is notatable. I mentioned them as they are also noteable, as they are part of the ulc. In the topic split with the monastery it leaves out that daniel was actually removed from the board, and FIRED. It is your own personal bias statement in keeping it at "it was a bloodless coup." When i removed it because it was negitive and a bias statement you call vandalism, revert it, and then warn me. :

as stated FREEMANS record has NOTHING to do with the ULC. The legal facts of what i presented about the OLD and New ULChq are completely related, the corporation was dissolved, and they started a new one. Which is not mentioned. IF you can not see this then there is nothing else i can do except request for moderation. WP:RFCU

Subgen 05:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I sense you are very biased, and blinded by Freeman. This is expected. But why is it that the Arizona Corporation Commission doesn't recognize George as the PRESIDENT/CEO ? Why did they reject his paperwork huh ? If everything was on the up and up, than why did he immediately transfer ULC.org to a new domain and remove every mention of ULC.Org on the site and direct his employees to and I quote "ulcorg ULC.org should never, never never appear on the cite..Change all to themonastery.org" Direct from Mr. Freeman himself.

I will tell you why Mr. Freeman's paperwork was rejected, and to this day Daniel Zimmerman is recognized as the CEO/President. Because on 02/28/2006 Daniel Zimmerman and the Corporate Secretary removed George Freeman as the Vice President of the "Universal Life Church Monastery". Therefore, he had no power to hold the board meeting and vote out Daniel Zimmerman. That is why he is not recognized by the Arizona Corporation Commission, and that is why they rejected his paperwork. See for yourself.

http://img239.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwispart2plpp3.jpg

Seems like you dont know the facts.

Brdennis 15:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Subgen, well your way off base with the ULCHQ material. While much if it is factual, it was in no way the reason for the Spilt with the Monastery. As to the use of the bloodless coups is entirely accurate in the corporate take over of the Monastery. It was a coup d'état which is defined as "The sudden overthrow of a government by a usually small group of persons in or previously in positions of authority." and was bloodless since there was no acts of violence to do it. As Br Dennis points out, there the ACC does not recognize Freeman as the legal president and there are several ongoing court cases between Zimmerman and Freeman over control of the corporation.

Now on to your claims about the ULCHQ having been 2 seperate corporations. Again that is not true in the least. The Church was founded in 1959 and then incorporated in 1962, it has been the same legal corporation since that time . JDBlues 15:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

In the ANNUAL REPORT filed in AZ. on: 04/09/2001 [5]shows that Zimmerman, Freeman and Chapin were the original founders of the AZ ULC/ULC Monastery Inc Corp. No one “owns the Monastery. Hence, under AZ law, one must be informed of his removal by “NOTICE”. This was not done. Further, Mr. Zimmerman in July stated to the WA State Corp Div. that Freeman was a VP and COO of the AZ Corp. Rev. Chapin was and still is, an active corporate officer in both Corp.’s’ Rev. Chapin’s authority to convene an emergency meeting was not taken into consideration at that time. Mr. Dennis is incorrect on this issue. The AZ Corp Div. has no statutory authority under AZ law to decide the legitimacy of corporate matters they are only an active record bureau. Such designations are the sole jurisdictions of state and federal courts.

In re; the factual evidence of Mr. Dennis’s slanderous allegations are simply untrue and legally actionable. All of the assets of the AZ Corp including the domain “ulc.org” were legally placed in our Washington State Corp. on the advice of legal counsel and accountants. ULC.org is just one of the hundreds of active domain names our church owns. Brdennis was terminated because it was brought to our Board's attention by our staff of his unabashed claims to have previously hacked other websites and his suggestions that he could hack competitive ULC sites. We invite you to visit his prior inaccurate self motivated posts on this site prior to our terminating him last spring where he supports the Monastery. We did not hire Mr. Dennis to spend time on these pages. He was hired to do optimizations and meta tags and redesign the forum... all of which he failed at. Mr.Dennis's online rants of fraud are exaggerated in the following arenas he has visited and also claimed "FRAUD" [6]; [[7]]; they are offered to portray his lack of credibility to submit true facts to this discussion group. We are also forwarding all copies of Brdennis’s e-mails to our attorneys for resolution, in that his postings here appear to be slanderous and actionable.

As to Mr. Freeman’s arrest record all of the arrests involve one S.P.D Ofc. Keith Swank See; [8]

As to; 340286 1 No OBSTRUCTING A PUBLIC OFFICER NG DM MTG 11/04/1998; S.P.D Ofc. Keith Swank is the same arresting officer who pulled a switch blade knife on Freeman when a black man robbed the Broadway Market in 1999 . Again it is Ofc. Keith Swank who is involved in this incident that Mr. Dennis raises above. Freeman sued Swank, the SPD and ran for City Counsel in response to their vendetta against Freeman. These are not new issues nor are they related to the ULC MONASTERY. Notwithstanding, The City of Seattle moved to dismiss all charges prior to Freeman's lawsuit. As a result it took Ofc. Swank six (6) yrs.and protracted court litigation to be promoted. [9]

Gentlemen, we are represented in ULC v. Pennsylvania by; Davis, Wright & Tremaine in national litigation on behalf of all ULC Ministers. We sent a request only to our PA ministers regarding our Legal Defense Fund which is earmarked solely for our national ULC campaign and not for The Monastery's control litigation in Arizona.

We are incorporated in several states. And represented by DeConcini McDonald Yetwin & Lacy, P.C. in Tucson, AZ We also have local Seattle counsel and hire the services of two accounting firms. We ordain and minister to the needs of more people than all ULC sites put together.

We take note of the ambiguities presented on this page regarding the status and findings in USDC Modesto; US v. Universal Life Church, Inc. No. 8-93284 Filed 1/30/89----Closed 6/27/01 and the current active corporation of; US v. Universal Life Church, Inc No. C0432091 Filed: 5/2/1962. This week we have requested a records check to resolve this question. We will post the results.

Our good works include the issuing of housing grants, food assistance to the needy, and donations to The Leukemia Society and a national college fund programs hosted by Weyerhauser. Our forthcoming winter grant is designated to the Seattle Children’s Hospital through a matching grant from our local Home Depot employees. Again we invite you join us or just to look in on us time to time and see if we are meeting our Ecclesiastical Proclamation and goals as mention 12 months ago on The Road to Jericho. We have been very busy lately and apologize for not personally appearing here prior. You are always welcome to send your queries to; webmaster@themonastery.org

A humble Jedi Warrior,who is still fervently traveling the road to Jericho. Universal Life Church Monastery Headquarters 1425 Broadway Ste. 67 Seattle, WA 98122 Fax: (206) 285-7888 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.106.253 (talk) 05:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

As I said prior to George Freeman coming on this board as President/CEO of a corporation to defend himself personally, I stated "Why do you think George removed my post about his criminal record, within 12 hours of myself posting it. He's hiding everything, and censors everybody who disagrees with him." Now having been threatened by George Freeman himself I stand by what I said, and it goes to show everybody here to the degree of accuracy my statements are. Ask yourself why the President/CEO of a non for profit corporation would come onto a Wikipedia page to defend himself against a former employee on "lies". Within the few days I've posted on this board, regarding the monastery I am already being threatened legal action. That seems very odd, considering im just "lieing". What I've said speaks for itself, I'm not going to continue engaging somebody who is making lies about me.Brdennis (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

In response to employee subgen's obviously dead wrong facts, I introduce a little more hypocrisy that is the Universal Life Church Monastery STOREHOUSE!. Not the universal life church monastery inc. Take a look at this : http://www.secstate.wa.gov/corps/search_results.aspx?search_type=simple&criteria=all&name_type=starts_with&name=universal+life+church+monastery&ubi=

Click on the 2nd link, and you'll notice that the original corporation in the state of Washington ULC Monastery Inc is inactive. Which means they are doing business in a new corporation, which is not the "original" monastery. It seems very hypocritical in contrary to the employee here who thinks that the current ULCHQ is under a different corporation other than the original one. Which isn't true in the slightest. Yet he has the nerve to come on here, and make that false claim. When his own "church" is operating under a second corporation that they formed.

Let me remind you.

"The second corporate that they opperate under is NOT the one founded by Kirby, so it is not the (Original), Please double check your facts before you post, absurd information." - Subgen

Need I say more ? Also, I wonder whatever happened to that "forthcoming winter grant" that george freeman was talking about ? What happened to it ? It is actually behind closed doors called the "forth coming do nothing grant, designed to make it appear as tho we do anything charitable" You mean to tell me you are going to do a winter grant AFTER Christmas George <sarcasm> ? Because thats usually what fund drives are all about during winter....uh the birth of Jesus ? Or in this case Yoda. The Wise master of the Force and teacher of Jedi. He'll just wait till summer rolls around, and everybody forgot about his non existent "winter grant" and call it the "summer grant".

Brdennis (talk) 09:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Do not feed the trolls

Lets make all the editors on the same page and everything clear to everyone, Bradley, you work for Daniel Zimmerman [AZ District court: # CV-07-209-TUC-DCB: Disclosure Statement), thus you violate the WP:NPOV as well. So it seems you go from one side to the other. So don't even talk about WP:NPOV and biased judgment, as there are a deal of posts that show your favor for The Monastery. I guess you only like them when your getting paid! : side note, its my personal option that anyone who would even bother to edit anything on this topic works for one of the churches in some mannor. So im not going to feed you anymore Consider this my last post to anything you would ever say. Subgen (talk) 02:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't work for any of them. That said, failing to discuss edits in good faith can be grounds for being blocked. I urge you to reconsider. GJ (talk) 02:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...I wont say everything I want to say Justin. But your punctuation gives it all away. Maybe you should fix your punctuation errors on the websites you design, as well as the forum :) If you bothered doing your job correctly.

Brdennis (talk) 03:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

GJ, i have made numberous attempts to make "good faith edits" yet they seem to constantly be reverted, if not by you them someone else. Lets work on something that everyone can agree upon. Ive yet to hear any other suggestions, except that what i suggest is not neutral in tone. Please lets compromise. Subgen (talk) 07:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It's hard to make a compromise when your own version is worse than what is already up. GJ (talk) 14:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The Monastery section

• How can we better write the Monastery section so it is neutral? GJ (talk) 19:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
• Corrected mispelled word (The Monastery)

Dispute over Links and Verbiage

According to WP:DR, and instead of going for mediation first, it suggests that editors discuss the problem, and get an outside opinion. There seems to be no response for outside opinion here, and there aren't that many people involved here in these pages, from experience I know getting a consensus on the 'neutral' party is near impossible. I am going to put a request for comment here, as well. Lets all try to sort this out, with as much factual and verifiable information as we can. First though, I will point out the areas of policy I am concerned with here:

• Nutshell: "Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but with everything they should be kept to a minimum of those that are of merit, notable, accessible and appropriate to the articles topic and subtopics."
• We should try to avoid undue weight on particular points of view: "On subtopics that will have multiple points of view, the number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to other equal points of view, nor give undue weight to minority views. We should add comments to these links informing the reader of their point of view. If one point of view dominates an informed opinion, that should be represented as well as other points of view on informed opinions "
• Links to be avoided: "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research." -- note that the relevant part of the Reliable Sources page says "Websites and publications of political parties, religious groups, anti-religious groups, or any other partisan group, may exhibit bias and should be treated with caution."

I have been rude, it ends now, I will try to cultivate a more considered tone, assured that what I extend out is given back.

• The changes I made were to ensure that there was an opportune to express an equal numbers of ULC links.
• Other Editors want to include more critical links of "The Monastery". Further, these are minority opinions, and some of them do not constitute reliable sources according to the policy cited above.
• There should not be a Section that details the "Split with the Monastery" as it is not a notable event in the ULC history, there have been many churches started by ULC Ministers, those that are "authorized and those that are sanctioned" yet there is no mention of those Companies. Further more, the number of anti Monastery links should be equal to the number of pro-monastery links. They should be represented strongly in a "Further Reading / Learn More about other ULC churches section.
• I say that is not the case, that two of the editors express anti-Monastery views (and acknowledge this). I also point out that the distribution of links etc. should basically accord with the majority opinions about this whole affair. And basically all academic / religious sources should be properly cited, To say that "What is right or what is wrong is not the case, --just trying to present the most bare-bones account of history and verifiable facts. There are other issues, like some authors disagree with and make negative remarks about "Who is the real or Who is the Headquarter". I am just talking broadly, there under the entire creed of the ULC could never be a headquarters, there can never be one person / company / church that can says what is or isn’t a valid ordination. That goes completely against the basis of the ULC and its creed.
• I dispute listing links depicting a negative view towards the monastery, some of which are not reliable sources, and all of which are demonstrably minority opinions. All this violates wikipedia's policy on External Links, some parts of which I have highlighted above

I think I have pretty much addressed where I feel the issues are. Now I want to leave this open for comments. Also please note that I hate doing all this just for a few links, and three sentences! It would have been much better if it could have just sorted this all out without resorting to all this. That is a bit disappointing. 66.235.38.134 (talk) 10:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)}}

I'm going to disagree with you. I think it is important enough to be included. The question is, how can it be neutral enough? You brought up a good point about third opinion, so I listed it on WP:3O. Please register. GJ (talk) 14:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I assert that it is notable in that "The Monastery" is the ONLY group actually removed by the ULC Headquarters. While you hold the opinion that there can be no headquarters. Your opinion is not fact. The ULC Headquaters is the only repository of ULC ordinations. All other sites either foward thier ordinations to the headquarters in Modesto (just like "The Monastery did until thier removal) or have broken off to form a seperate church of thier own accord and without being removed by the headquarters. Subgen's sole purpose is to provide advertizing and good propaganda for his employer "The Monastery". That in itself is clearly a conflict of interest and looking at his edit history a clear violation of the WP:SPA. JDBlues (talk) 17:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with JDBlues. The statement he made about "there can be no ULC headquarters" comes directly from the mouth of his boss. He's just repeating everything hes been told. And it shows.

Brdennis (talk) 19:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I was just thinking about the hypocrisy that is the Universal Life Church Monastery. The employee here Subgen has stated that there "can be no ULC headquarters". Which is the opinion of the owner of The Monastery. Yet....If you go to there website it says "The headquarters for the Universal Life Church Monastery in Seattle " Under about us. And refers to the monastery as "Universal Life Church Monastery Headquarters" Does that make them hypocrites or just idiots ?

Brdennis (talk) 02:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment There is no reason to exclude one or two links to reliable criticism. Links to unreliable sites should always be removed. If there are different reliable sources that disagree on a subject, both sides should be addressed with a NPOV in proportion to weight. As for the split, what evidence is there to support the contention that it is a non-notable event in ULC history? Are there reliable sources that discuss the split? If so, then it's notable and appropriate. Phyesalis (talk) 23:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)