User talk:Shawnregan: Difference between revisions

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Welcome!

Hello, Shawnregan, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! VanTucky ^talk 18:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

February 2008

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to make constructive contributions to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to Akita Inu, did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 09:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. Forgive me. Oda Mari (talk) 09:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dog overviews

Hi,

I've seen the stunning work you're doing with regard to the overviews of the dogs. The table looks great and certainly most of the breeds could do with it, it's a good summary of the dog, well done :o)

That said, I don't think there should be the Guard-dog, learning rate, activity levels and temperament sections...at least not in the format they exist currently.

Temperament is as different from dog to dog as in humans and using words like cheerful etc seem like POV as does the guard-dog ability (that could depend on the temperament of the dog). Learning ability mainly is down to the patience of the owner (though they're very stubborn I've known Bulldogs perform in agility, which means their learning ability is quite high, it's their temperament that means they choose not to learn, or listen). Generalities are fine, to a certain extent, but best avoided in an overview I think.

Let me know what you think, and well done fotr the basis of a sterling piece of work :o) Drivenapart (talk) 09:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reforming the Dog overviews

Yes, I am in complete agreement with you. Dogs are individuals, and the breed characteristics are generalizations. I've been mulling over how to get that across even while writing those overviews.

That being said, people need to know what they are getting into with a dog. The dog pounds are often full of Labs because people do not realize just how hyper the field line of Labs are. People want a beautiful Siberian Husky, but don't realize how destructive and independent they are. So the overview presents them with some stark information they need to know when getting a dog. People seem to ignore the full text, even when they read it! I actually believe they spend more time looking at the photos!

One problem here is presentation. The overview is too simplified. For example, the English Bulldog is mellow and friendly -- not the classic guard dog like a Rottie or Dobie or GSD. But the Bulldog's appearance has a deterrent effect, so the Bulldog is often classified as a guard dog. How do I manage to explain _that_ in a little box that is designed to say "high" or "low"? Well, I could try.

I am thinking of including my sources in a footnote. Is that possible? Also, I could add a blurb from the AKC description of the breed, which is in some respects a formal guideline for how the breed _should_ behave. Any ideas?

cheers, Shawnregan

Cheers for getting back to me. I'm not sure that putting such things as guard-dog ability down is such a good thing, purely because that's all down to personal experience. From my experience with Bullies, while bulldog is placid most of the time, it is fiercely loyal and as has been known attacked dogs and attackers who've tried to hurt the owner. But that in itself isn't representative of the breed, and I've never known it been classed as guard-dog. I think it'd be far better to say within the article of each dog, as prose, that a certain dog has been used for guard-dog work (example GSD or DP) and leave it out of the box altogether. Same should be applied to the nature of the dogs. The facts need to be backed up and one box with some information that could be misleading might not be taken too well. Far better to put in the box some of the features of the breed standard and leave it at that I think. While I see what you're saying about giving people info with regards to dogs so they know what they're getting into, sadly Wiki isn't the right place for that. It's an encyclopedia, we've just got to give facts that we can back up, it's not a service to help people choose the right dog - far better that we link to a external site which explains the issues surrounding the dog, which can be as POV as it likes :oD So I think the box is perfect as it stands, and yep it is simple, but that's what works for it. I think the debatable points (activity rate - I've known Bulldogs be anything from...well, a doormat to out-running a Jack Russell - guard-dog, temperament etc) should be left out, but basic facts that can be changed by the breed speciailists who look after the pages should be there (height, weight, litter size, longevity etc). WHat you think? Drivenapart (talk) 10:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While it certainly true that such things as guard-dog ability vary greatly and that judgments about them are personal, the same holds for just about every other aspect of a breed. This is true even for the size and look of a breed: for example, the AKC Bearded Collie standard calls for bitches with a height of 20-21 inches, but I've seen some that exceeded 23 inches--they just don't do very well in conformation shows. The breed standard is essentially an ideal, actual individuals come more or less close to meeting it, and conformation judges make decisions about how closely they do meet them. More to the point for this discussion, breed standards often include something about the desired character and abilities. The FCI standard for the Labrador, for example, describes it as "Good-tempered, very agile. Excellent nose, soft mouth; keen lover of water. Adaptable, devoted companion. Intelligent, keen and biddable, with a strong will to please. Kindly nature, with no trace of aggression or undue shyness." It is obvious, I think, that judgment is called for: does this bitch have a soft mouth? is this particular dog intelligent or devoted? The thing to do in here is to phrase the claim carefully, that is, to say "the breed standard calls for..." In short, entry on any breed must convey the characteristics which appear in the breed standard, the intangible as well as the visible and measurable.

I also have a suggestion about the two dog infobox and the overview box: lets combine them. The French Wikipedia uses a box that includes just about all the information which appears in the two boxes here. I think it would be easy to import it and use it.

Best, Awsguy1 (talk) 20:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest discussing this at WikiProject Dogs so that the community knows what is going on with these Overview/Quick Facts tables. Coaster1983 (talk) 00:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think that combining these boxes is such a good idea. The French Wikipedia cites on the FCI, whereas the Anglophone entries usually list at least several (sometimes many) breed organizations. We'll see, though. Interesting idea. --Shawnregan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.116.91 (talk) 02:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Shawnregan (though I think Quick Facts is a better title than Overview, as the info is IMO too sparse/bulleted to be an Overview). Almost every "breed in a nutshell" offering includes activity, intelligence/trainabilty, personality/temperament, guard/working ability or breed purpose - as well as often grooming needs and colors. Of course some of these will vary by individual dog, but the point is a general description of the breed, and these characteristics are in most cases clearly stated either in the breed standard or in national breed parent club publications. People who want a 'snapshot' of a particular dog breed are going to care more about how much exercise they typically need and what their temperament is than in how many puppies they usually have in a litter. (In my breed that varies from 1 to 14, so the ~6 that is used is really just POV as well.) Put a disclaimer, if you must, that "Quick Facts are based on breed standards; individual dogs may vary in these traits" or something along those lines.

Drivenapart (I think) wrote, "While I see what you're saying about giving people info with regards to dogs so they know what they're getting into, sadly Wiki isn't the right place for that." In that case, why have a Quick Facts/Overview box at all? Just have the article - which covers all of the Quick Facts item except maybe litter size (which could be easily incorporated) and leave it at that.