Talk:Mises Institute

This group is apparently regarded as neo-confederate by some, including the Southern Poverty Law Center. This should be mentioned in the article – not that the neo-confederate discription is indsiputable but rather the fact that some have drawn it. Rlquall 18:16, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. I've added a sentence to that effect, feel free to modify. Cheers, -Willmcw 18:20, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

Ummm ... what exactly is meant by a "neo-confederate group"? The initial principals of the Mises Institute were Lew Rockwell and Murray Rothbard, both of whom were from the northeast, rather than the south. The article on neo-confederate describes the controversial nature of this term in some detail. What are the criteria for including quotations where one group uses an epithet to describe another? - Nat Krause 18:47, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I believe it may be due more to Thomas DiLorenzo and others. [1]. (Also search on "mises" in the SPLC site to find many references). I think that it is NPOV to report that a notable institute has categorized a group in such a way. We are not endorsing that categorization, only reporting it factually. If we can find a denial from Mises, we should include that too. Cheers, -Willmcw 20:00, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not an expert-God knows-but what is a "faculty connection?" Is that an accepted term within academia to indicate that a particular individual is involved with a group whose name strikes fear into the heart of the affirmative action officer? If it is, then ignore my comment. If not, elaborate on the phrase and say that (_some_) Misesians are proud supporters of Southern heritage. Paul 02:03, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) Willmcw and Nat--I agree with both of you--the SPLC is a well known organization and their smears should be exposed to the light of day. Let Wikipedians decide for themselves the merit of SPLC and their accusations. Paul 02:05, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unnamed "Opponents"

• Opponents of this kind of charge view it as merely an excess of political correctness run amok, and frequently note that such so-called politically-correct and liberal types often excuse or whitewash--hypocritically, some say--the genocides and mass murders committed during the twentieth century by governments they would otherwise view as benevolent. Such opponents note that charges of Neo-confederacy and the like fly in the face of the tremendous amount of anti-socialist and anti-Fascist writing on the Institute's website and demonstrated in their programs, e.g. seminars such as the The Economics of Fascism.

Who are these "opponents" and where have they expressed their views? Thanks, -Willmcw 01:20, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

• • Give me a few hours, I'll get back to it. Nskinsella 01:35, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

• • • Adding an entry in your blog so that you can come here and cite it is not the way to write an encyclopedia. -Willmcw 22:09, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Who knew? I can find other sources, trust me!! haev you ever read Sowell's book about liberals and their intentions? Wikismooches, Stephan Kinsella 22:18, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

• • • So, the fact that some McCarthyite institution wants to call the LvMI "neo-confederate" with negative connotations (note: I'm not arguing that there's anything wrong with neo-conderatism) means that it should be included in an encyclopedia entry on the LvMI? Just becuase some other institution says this? So what. These kinds of smear campaigns shouldn't be in encylopedias. Why not also include all of the things said by numerous other institutions about the LvMI? And why not include responses, so what the article can go on and on about who views who as what. A statement of what the LvMI argues for is plenty enough. -- David J. Heinrich

• Dr. Heinrich has a good point. Palmer's blog is merely a blog. So I will delete references to him too, per Willmcw's policy of not using blogs as the source. Stephan Kinsella 01:25, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• My bad, Palmer is not listed here, but on the Lew Rockwell site. I'll implement Willmcw's standards posthaste. Stephan Kinsella 01:27, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

• • • Williamcw: You said, "Adding an entry in your blog so that you can come here and cite it is not the way to write an encyclopedia." But, apparently, referring to baseless smears against libertarians (Hoppe) by someone (Palmer) who's made it an ongoing policy to smear this person, is the way to write an encylopedia? Encyclopedia articles should not be yet another place where campaigns of character-assasination are waged. And that holds for individuals and institutions. -- David J. Heinrich
      • Any notable criticisms should be included. The SPLC, love it or hate it, is a notable institution. If the Mises Institute has a response then we should include that too. -Willmcw 02:36, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

• Williamcw: This is not a notable criticism. As for the SPLC being "notable", I've never heard of them before, and their web-traffic is smaller than that of Mises.org and LewRockwell.org by 2 orders of magnitude. Hardly seems significant to me. But accepting that they are, I stand by my assertion that Encyclopedias shouldn't be places where mud is thrown. Absent a response to this rubbish, it is a denigration to the LvMI; it shouldn't be allowed to stand unchallenged, simply because no-one there has gotten around to responding to it.

Have we established that being a "neo-Confederate" is a bad thing? If so, why? Regarding the SPLC, it is widely known even if you haven't heard of them. In any case, they aren't the only ones making the claim. that the Mises Institute is "neo-Confederate". So, it's sourced information. Add a rebuttal from Mises if there is one. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:46, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

• Williamcw: I don't agree that neo-Confederate is necessarily a bad thing. I'm a strong supporter of secession, and that includes the South. What I think is bad thing is the way in which SPLC uses the term "neo-Confederate", with negative connotations. In their view, neo-Confederate = racist. Most likely, in the minds of many people, the same thing is true. This is because the South had slaves. But the LvMI does not support enslaving anyone. What some there support is the South's secession. And that's not a complete generalization, as Tibor Machan is affiliated with the LvMI and argued against Southern secession. In any event, I think the rebuttal offered by Kinsella is fine.

• ..collectivism, Fascism and related views often alleged as being connected with neo-confederate groups..

According to whom are these views often alleged to be connected to neo-confederate groups? As far as I know, the opposite is true. -Willmcw 05:52, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

• Haven't you seen how these PC idiots operate? They lump it all together. If you look at them cross-eyed, you're an anti-semite. Stephan Kinsella 06:25, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Raimondo

I like Raimondo, but not sure it's accurate to list his as "associated" w/ the Institute. Do you have any objective evidence for this? He may be listed as adjunct scholar, I don't know, but hundreds of people are, so that should not be enough. Stephan Kinsella 00:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

He's not listed on the site as having any position or even as adjunct scholar. I think they've published some things he's written--but then they've published things by hundreds of people. Stephan Kinsella 00:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The source is Raimondo's bio on http://www.antiwar.com . - Nat Krause 03:50, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

According to this he is (or was) an "adjunct scholar" at the LVMI. [2] OTOH, there are over two hundred current adjunct scholars, so that might not be a particularly notable connection. -Willmcw 04:04, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

table of contents

Willmcw, how do you get the page to display that Table of Contents? I don't understand the code for this. Stephan Kinsella 17:36, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

It's automatic when you create headings. -Willmcw 18:07, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

David Duke

Willmcw, your casual listing of David Duke as another opponent of SPLC is clearly NPOV. Duke is a universally reviled racist. It is gratuitous to add his critique of SPLC. He has no credibility so to add him as a redundant critique of SPLC serves to equate Duke with other critics of SPLC, such as Horowitz. Thereby serving to try to denude all the critiques of SPLC of any force. Thereby trying to subtly bolster SPLC's critique of Mises Institute. Adding Duke to the list of critics of SPLC does nothing constructive or useful, and snidely impugns the other critics of SPLC. It is definitely not NPOV.

What you are doing here would be akin to this: "Exxon is criticized by the Sierra Club, an environmentalist group. Adolf Hitler was also an environmtalist."

Or: "Phillip Morris defends cigarrette smoking as not as harmful as claimed, and as the adult's right. The anti-smoking alliance accuses Phillip Morris of downplaying the risks of smoking. Adolf Hitler, another opponent of smoking, also accused the tobacco companies of immoral profitteering." Would such a comment be appropriate in a neutral encyclopedia?? Stephan Kinsella 20:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Duke is certainly better known than Myles Kantor. Horowitz has a pretty bad reputation in some circles too. Since the point of the rebuttal section seems to be to impugn the SPLC in general (rather than addressing the specific isue of the "neo-confederate" label), any general criticism seems appropriate. Maybe it'd be better to drop the whole section and just deal with the "neo-confederate" matter directly? -Willmcw 21:03, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

What you are attempting to do has the following effect: SPLC is allowed to be described as accusing the Mises Inst of being neo-confederate and racist; while any rebuttal of SPLC's credibility is diluted by making them all look like racist loons. This is completely inappropraite and unacceptable, and NPOV IMHO. Given Duke's abysmal reputation as an avowed racist--he was head of the KKK for God's sake--it is hardly a "rebuttal" to trot him out as being against you. It is worse than a rebuttal. There is no need to mention Duke here. Horowitz is fairly mainstream and has credibility. Duke does not. This is utterly ridiculous. IMHO. Stephan Kinsella 21:09, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I concur that this Duke quote is clearly of little value in the Mises Institute article. In fact, virtually all of this corollary criticism seems to be better suited for the SPLC article. Let's keep the criticism if people think that it is notable enough, but let's not get into a denouement of the SPLC controversy here. DickClarkMises 21:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The denouncement of the SPLC was initiated to provide balance. Leaving the SPLC's criticism (which is completely wrong in the context that they use it, which is that the LvMI is like the League of the South, an organization the SPLC alleges to be racist. Putting that up there without a rebuttal is not neutral at all. For an article to be neutral means presenting both sides of an argument. It seems like some people here think that just by saying, "some have criticized", etc, they avoid issues of non-neutrality. Not true. Such phraseology allows the author to claim to be neutral, or at least prevents knowing definitively what the author thinks. However, it still does not guarantee a neutral article. Would the article be neutral if it listed every nutty criticsm of the LvMI, but no rebuttal?

I concur with Kinsella's criticism of adding a critique of the SPLC from a well-reviled racist. It is not neutral at all. Putting in a "rebuttal" has to effect of saying that the LvMI is in some way affiliated with the KKK. Absurd tripe. -- David Heinrich

I concur completely with Stephen Kinsella on this one. Willmcw's additions/restorations of Duke material serves a clear political purpose of seeking to discredit and/or reduce the Horowitz response. Citing David Duke is transparent in that it serves no other informational purpose to this article than to diminish a more mainstream critique of SPLC, thus seemingly propping up SPLC's viewpoint over others (which could also be said of including the SPLC material in the first place). That's an NPOV violation by its very definition as the NPOV policy can also apply to what content is included as well as the wording of that content. It's also getting WAY off topic from this article (a problem that also seems to be recurring in the wikipedia additions of the main proponent of the Duke section, who should accordingly review and familiarize himself with all wikipedia NPOV related policies and guidelines in order to prevent his repetition of this violation in the future). A simple sentence or two qualifying the fact that SPLC's labelling of groups is controversial in its own right is appropriate for this article, but a multi-paragraph analysis of SPLC containing quotations of a figure of infamy that are seemingly juxtaposed next to others for the purpose of discrediting is not. Rangerdude 21:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

RfC

It is stated in entry that a group (Southern Poverty Law Center--SPLC) accuses the subject group (Mises Institute) of racism. The entry also notes that SPLC is accused by some groups of making exaggerated or politically motivated claims of racism. A user then adds a comment that David Duke, the white supremacist, also accuses SPLC of exaggerated claims of racism. Is this comment appropriate and NPOV? For more see Talk:Ludwig_von_Mises_Institute#David_Duke.

Huh? Where does the SPLC accuse the LVMI of racism? -Willmcw 21:05, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

SPLC lists the League of the South on its "hate groups" page here. Then SPLC here claims:

In the past, Rockwell has praised the electoral success of European neofascists like Joerg Haider in Austria and Christoph Blocher in Switzerland.

Both Rockwell and institute research director Jeffrey Tucker are listed on the racist League of the South's Web page as founding members — and both men deny their membership. Tucker has written for League publications, and many League members have taught at the institute's seminars and given presentations at its conferences.

This obviously insinutates Rockwell is racist and in cahoots with "hate" groups. Can anyone honestly deny that this is what is being alleged? You people here are so concernend about copyright violations. How abuot outright libel? A false charge of racism is probably per se libel; re-publishing a libelous comment is also an act of libel. At the very least it is only good manners to be very careful before contributiong to or perpetuating the accusation that someone is racist. Stephan Kinsella 21:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I am very surprised, but SPLC does indeed accuse LVMI and Rockwell of racism. This charge is reported accurately in the article, along with some rebuttals. What's the problem? Wikipedia is not committing libel against LVMI. It is never libelous to accurately report what someone else said. Wikipedia cannot be held legally responsible for reporting someone else's claims - this amounts to an infringement on the site's right to free speech. Rhobite 21:25, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Do you think it's appropriate, and NPOV, to accompany the David Horowitz critique of SPLC with a similar critique by David Duke? Does it serve any purpose but to try to equate Horowitz (and thus all the critiques of SPLC) with the much-reviled David Duke? I believe it converts a rebuttal into a further critique. Stephan Kinsella 21:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

If SPLC's smear of Rockwell and Mises Institute is to be put in the entry, it is appropriate to include reference to criticisms of SPLC's bias and credibility. It is not appropriate or necessary to accompany these criticisms with one by a known racist, in an attempt to weaken the other criticisms of SPLC. That is not NPOV; it is a result of a transparent agenda to bias the article against Mises Institute and in favor of its critics. Stephan Kinsella 21:31, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Are we talking about the LVMI or the League of the South? Yes, the SPLC calls LOTS a racist hate group. But that is a matter for other articles. The SPLC does not the LVMI either racist or a hate group, that I know of. Those are all strawmen arguements that get away from the simple issue of the SPLC's description of the LVMI as "neo-Confederate". -Willmcw 21:39, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Ludwig von Mises, for whom the Ludwig von Mises Institute is named, was a critic of "economic planning". New Deal economics was essentially an American form of "economic planning". Hence von Mises is cited as a critic of New Deal and subsequent Great Society government programs. The evidence suggest that the von Mises Institute published criticism of writings that used SPLC materials here pg.8, with this quote,

"The Information Age also reveals a misleading use of sources. Sometimes, as Steve Fuller (1999, p. 162) of the University of Durham points out, Castells marshals aggregate data without commenting on the shortcomings of comparing summary statistics across nations. In other cases, he accepts the reports of such highly politicized organizations as the Southern Poverty Law Center and treats their statistics as valid without explaining the center’s criteria of classification. This misleads the uncritical reader into accepting methodological artifacts as statistical fact supporting what is a questionable interpretation. And, third, the books offer examples of poor argumentation—usually when the aggregate statistics fail to support Castells’s interpretation. For instance, in volume 2, Castells describes the rise of militia movements and attempts to show (based upon unquestioned Southern Poverty Law Center data) their spread across America. When even those figures do not support his argument, he then throws in the following: “If we consider the Christian Coalition to be a part of the [militia] movement, then Patriots are present in the suburbs of most large metropolitan areas” (vol. 2, p. 95). Castells creates—out of thin air and without scholarly proof—a presumed, if not desired similarity and treats it as accepted fact. This sleight of hand allows him to magically pull rabbits out of a hat that isn’t even a hat."

so the SPLC retaliated by finding references to Abraham Lincoln and statism in LvMI publications and put them on their hate group list. nobs 21:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw wrote:

"Are we talking about the LVMI or the League of the South? Yes, the SPLC calls LOTS a racist hate group. But that is a matter for other articles. The SPLC does not the LVMI either racist or a hate group, that I know of. Those are all strawmen arguements that get away from the simple issue of the SPLC's description of the LVMI as "neo-Confederate"."

Yes, this is indeed beside the point. But if you are going to insist in including the mention that SPLC accuses Mises of being Neo-Confederate, and if it is true that SPLC classifies LOS as being a "hate group" because it is Neo-Confederate, and calls LOS racist, and states that the employees of Mises Inst are founders of and associated with the "racist", "hate-group" LOS, it is very very clear that SPLC is insinuating Mises INst is racist and affiliated, at least, w/ hate groups. Given this, it is relevant to quote critics of SPLC like David Horowitz, so that SPLC's smears of Mises INst are not simply unanswered. Now you seem to be insisting that if the smears of Mises are answered, the answers must be associated some loathesome character, David Duke. This is unfair, and inappropraite. Once Horowitz--a fairly reputable source, arguably at least on the same level of respectability as SPLC, at least--is cited as challenging SPLC's racist charges as being often non-credible, that is sufficient. It is pointless to add yet another source, and one who is an obvious, despised and widely revilesd racist; it strongly implies Horowitz is just another racist like Duke, and thus the criticisms of SPLC should be disregarded. It is not NPOV. The Duke comment shoudl be removed. Stephan Kinsella 21:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree that David Duke's comment is irrelevant. Duke does not mention LVMI and has nothing to do with the dispute, except that he has criticized the SPLC (as many racists do). Rhobite 22:04, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

All of these attacks on the SPLC are what my friend user:Rangerdude calls "ad hominem" attacks and generally removes from articles. Your logic about the insinuation is original research. The SPLC calls some groups "hate groups" and not others. Duke is as notable critic of the SPLC as Horowitz. How about we drop them both? At least there is some connection between Kantor and the LVMI. -Willmcw 22:07, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw: this is ridiculous. Let's look at this honestly. There is an entry about MI. Someone notes that SPLC accuses MI of "neo-confederacy", by which it means racism and hate-mongering. It is perfectly reasonable to note, in this context, that the SPLC has been criticized for its "racist" attacks on others. This helps to make for a balanced article. The reader sees that there is a critic of the subject; but that the critic has its own critics. There is no reason whatsoever to insist that the criticism must come from the victim, or by someone "connected" to them. On the other hand, to insist on adding the criticsim of a known racist is purely politically motived. You should not use Wiki to make a WP:POINT. If the SPLC smear of MI is to be retained, the Horowitz critique should be retained; and the Duke comment should not. It is ridiculous to include a known, universally reviled racist to pretend to defend someone from charges of racism, in an effort to give balance to the article. I am going to fix it. Please do not further politicize this. Stephan Kinsella 01:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

First show me where the SPLC calls the LVMI "racist" or "hate-mongering". Anyway, I'm fine with the rebuttal from a LVMI writer, Kantor. -Willmcw 01:21, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

I have already done so. I will repeat it--see below. You may be fine with Kantor, but you have given no reasaon to restricting comments on SPLC from MI itself. That's just an arbitrary rule. So, here is how SPLC calls LVMI racist or hatemongering. First, SPLC lists the League of the South on its "hate groups" page here. And it calls LOS racist, explicitly.

Then SPLC here claims:

Both Rockwell and institute research director Jeffrey Tucker are listed on the racist League of the South's Web page as founding members — and both men deny their membership. Tucker has written for League publications, and many League members have taught at the institute's seminars and given presentations at its conferences.

This obviously insinutates Rockwell is racist and in cahoots with "hate" groups. How can you deny this with a straight face? Anyway, what exactly is your point, or argument? Are you saying that there is no excuse to put up the Horowitz/Kantor critiques of SPLC, unless we first establish some kind of charges by SPLC of MI being racist? What is your point, exactly? Ours is clear. If you post a critique of MI, it's balanced to post criticisms of the critic. But not David Duke, which is a purely politicized move. We should just try to be fair and objective. No? Stephan Kinsella 01:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

If you mean "insinuate" then say, "insinuate". They certainly don't "call" LVMI "racist" directly. Since the issue is not whether they are called "racist" or not, quotes about racism are irrelevant. If, for whatever reason, these quotes are relevant, then Duke, a noted commentator on racism, is a valid expert. Duke is no more political than Horowitz. If one belongs then so does hte other. Please don't censor. Thanks, -Willmcw 02:42, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree, strongly. I believe your motives here are transparent, just as they were on the IP page where you wanted to insist on the copyright comment. This is no place for hidden agendi. Stephan Kinsella 02:47, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

It's no place for any agendas. I'd be hard to argue that faculty and staff of the LVMI don't have a agenda regarding their institution. -Willmcw 02:54, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion: How about we do this: after the mention of SPLC's accusations, add a sentence like this: "Critics of SPLC, however, maintain that the SPLC sometimes exaggerates or wrongfully accuses other groups of racism or of being "hate groups"; more detail at the Southern Poverty Law Center page.Stephan Kinsella 02:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Details are usually available at linked articles, so there's no need to say that. The other part is OK if you change it to "neo-confederate", since that is the charge. Some other editors have made some helpful contributions. I think it is pretty good right now. -Willmcw 03:22, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

now Gazpacho has vandalized the damn thing. Stephan Kinsella 03:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

No vandalized - he removed irrelevant info. -Willmcw 03:27, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

And added unsubstantiated smears about Francis and Sobran. I have deleted them. They are NPOV, and unsubstantiated, and irrelevant. Stephan Kinsella 03:30, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw: Non-sense. Your putting Duke in there was an unfair attempt to insinuate that those who defend the LvMI are somehow like Duke, a racist. You added that they've accused the LvMI of being neo-confederate (a term they use with racist connotations). Quoting someone who criticizes their labelling of various groups as neo-confederate or racist is *not* an ad hominem. An ad hominem would be saying, "well, you can't believe them, they beat their wives" or something like that, completely irrelevant to the allegation being made. The quote from Horowitz calls into question the legitimacy of claims by the SPLC that organizations are neo-confederate (by which they mean, with thin veil, racist). --Dh003i 23:20, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I did not realize that Horowitz has no connection to LVMI. I agree, we should remove all irrelevant attacks on the SPLC. If LVMI has officially responded to SPLC it should be covered, but those with no connection to this dispute do not belong in the article. I also support removing the paragraph about how LVMI supports "individualism". It's POV original research to make this claim without a citation. Rhobite 22:12, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Rhobite: Simply because the LvMI hasn't responded to the insinuations of the SPLC doesn't mean the SPLC's junk should go unchallenged. It is an outright smear, and without a something countering it, it destroys the article's neutrality. Either you have the criticism and a rebuttal, or you have neither. But having a criticism which insinuates racism -- especially for anyone who looks for the SPLC's list of "bad organizations" and discovers what they say about them -- is decidedly *non*-neutral. Furthermore, it is not "POV" to claim that the LvMI supports individualism without providing a reference. Do we have to have a reference for every thing we describe them as? That's simply what they support. Go to their home page, they have an article in their recent articles on individualism. --Dh003i 23:20, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I think I remember you from K5. Same guy? I was CaptainSuperBoy back then. Silly nickname. Welcome to Wikipedia.. I agree that it would be unfortunate if SPLC's allegations were listed here unchallenged. However here at Wikipedia we are limited to using verifiable information from other sources. We can't craft our own arguments and insert them into articles. Luckily Kantor's response is relevant to LvMI, and it should definitely stay. We should remove the other responses from David Duke, Horowitz, and our own unsourced bit about individualism. It may be well-known that LvMI supports individualism and opposes collectivism, but the article makes an implied argument: Because of this support for individualism, LvMI is against segregation and racist policy. Unless someone outside Wikipedia has made this argument, it is our own original research. Rhobite 23:27, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yea, same guy from K5. I got tired of K5's non-responsiveness, and of the lack of control of your own journals. Some socialist nutcase who thought he knew something about economics kept on writing idiotic comments in my journal, so I moved to LiveJournal (where you can delete idiots).

Regarding the comments on collectivism/individualism, there isn't an implied argument. Those are facts about the LvMI. The "argument" comes in the readers own mind: anyone who visits the links to the LvMI will realize that it is radically pro-freedom, pro-private-property, anti-State, and anti-fascist/communist. This destroys the credibility of the claims by the SPLC. The descriptions of the LvMI used in the article are easily verifiable on LvMI; I could provide a reference (actually, many references) for each of them; but if every descriptive word has to have a reference, well, I think that's silly.

Concession: Given that way that factual information is presented, it may appear to be an argument. For the purposes of appearances, I've modified the same sentence and moved it to the first section discussing the LvMI.

I still think that the quotes by Horowitz and others calling into question the legitimacy of the SPLC's criticisms of neo-confedericism are relevant. Perhaps there need not be more than one or two, though --Dh003i 23:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

This page could benefit from the information about the LvMI's mission and history in Mises.org's About Page --Dh003i 23:46, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I remember that you're familiar with the LvMI's work. It would be great if you could help expand this article. Rhobite 23:54, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I'd be glad to. It's just a matter of trying to divide it up into the major topics covered, and explain the LvMI's discussion on them clearly.

Over-hyperlinking? Maybe this is a general question, but it seems like this page (along with alot of others) are over-linked to other Wiki articles. It seems to me that things having nothing to do with the LvMI (like 1995 and vice-president) should not be hyperlinked. I realize the reason for this is probably to go along with the way the mind things (e.g., you see one thing, then you scatter off on different paths), but I think it is detrimental to the quality of the article visually, and even functionally (when skimming for links). Most people looking at the article are interested in LvMI-related stuff. If "1995" happens to conjure up their interest, the "search" box is to the left of the article.

This is not the first instance of the SPLC using McCarthyite smear tactics against anyone who questions thier research methods or thier motives. And I beleive that can be verified. nobs 03:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

NO PERSONAL ATTACKS PLEASE - I just observed the following, which when read in light of its description appears to be a personal attack upon editor Stephen Kinsella.

It's no place for any agendas. I'd be hard to argue that faculty and staff of the LVMI don't have a agenda regarding their institution. -Willmcw 02:54, July 23, 2005 (UTC) (edit description by Willmcw: "I don't get paid by the LVMI")

For the sake of civility and with respect to wikipedia's editing guidelines, I would urge the editor in violation to refrain from such personal attacks upon the person of another editor be they direct or by implication. Thank you. Rangerdude 17:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Sobran

• In the past, the Mises Institute has sponsored talks by columnist Joseph Sobran, who himself has spoken at holocaust denial conferences.[3][4] Its president, Lew Rockwell, has published Sobran, and alleged white supremacists Samuel Francis and Jared Taylor on his website LewRockwell.com. Christian Reconstructionist Gary North also publishes from time to time on lewrockwell.com.

Enough is enough. Now someone has alleged a Mises writer has spoken at holocaust denial conference, with no source to verify this charge. POV is back up. Stephan Kinsella 03:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

No problem finding sources for that one. -Willmcw 03:26, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Why do you callit an unsubstantiated claim? He doesn't hide the fact. Check the sources. -Willmcw 03:29, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Says Sobran

The news that I would be addressing the Institute of Historical Review came to some people as, well, news....Even if the Holocaust had really happened, as I assumed, maybe it should be studied with a critical rationality most of its believers obviously lacked. ...Why on earth is it "anti-Jewish" to conclude from the evidence that the standard numbers of Jews murdered are inaccurate, or that the Hitler regime, bad as it was in many ways, was not, in fact, intent on racial extermination?...In short, the Holocaust has become a device for exempting Jews from normal human obligations. It has authorized them to bully and blackmail, to extort and oppress.'[5]

and so on. Why was this appropriate, sourced, relevant info deleted? -Willmcw 03:38, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

PS - I don't see any evidence that Francis or Taylor are columnists associated with Mises, but Gary North has his own archive on LRC.[6] So I suggest we restore the text except for the Francis/Taylor sentence. -Willmcw 03:47, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Hmmmm ... I gues I just don't see how relevant it is whether Joe Sobran is interested in revisionist history or who Lew Rockwell publishes on a different website. What does any of this tell us about the Mises Institute? - Nat Krause 03:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree - mentioning Sobran's alleged interest in revisionist history has virtually nothing to do with the subject of this article. In fact, it appears that the only reason this bit of information was added is an attempt to discredit and disparage the LVMI while propping up the SPLC's controversial allegations with a rather shoddy piece of original research. I would again remind the person who added this information to review wikipedia's NPOV policies and guidelines, of which he is frequently in conflict by way of attempted informational insinuations of this very sort. The recurring nature of these attempts to insert material with a clear POV aim is indicative that he/she should pay closer attention to this aspect of article editing in order to avoid a recurrence of the same problem. Rangerdude 04:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

An academic institution is known for the scholars it associates with. Sobran is much more closely connected than Horowitz, that's for sure. The types of publishing that the institution's founder and president engage in are relevant to that institution's reputation. If the president is a supporter of holocaust deniers then that is interesting. If the president of NYU published a holocaust denier on his website I'm sure we'd report it. -Willmcw 04:19, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think Sobran is particularly close with LvMI—he is, after all, not an economist or a scholar in some other field—but I'm not surprised to learn that he has had some connection to them. However, "has spoken at holocaust denial conferences" hardly sums up Joe Sobran's career; it seems more like we're getting at an idea of "An academic institution is known for other institutions that are associated with by the scholars who are associated with the institution in question". And, no, I don't see why we would report it if someone who associates with holocaust deniers published on the NYT website about something else. - Nat Krause 04:37, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

This is just ridiculous. It's obviously trying to portray the LvMI as anti-semitic. However, Ludwig von Mises was Jewish. How many "hate groups" are named after Jewish guys? - Joe LaBaw

I agree. Implying that the LvMI is anti-semitic is ridiculous BS. Luduwg von Mises, Murray Rothbard, Walter Block -- all Jewish. Willcw is clearly trying to engage in a campaign against the LvMI; the reason, I don't know.

I never said that anyone is anti-semitic or anything esle. I'm just trying to find a reasonable assortment of notable critical issues so that this article, heavily edited by those who work at LVMI or sympathize with it, does not lose all NPOV. As for Sobran and North, they spoke at LVMI events or published on LRC. Either drop all mention of LRC (and LRC authors) or include them. You can't have it both ways. -Willmcw 16:53, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Nat- If we're going to drop mention of Sobran and North then we should drop the mentions of Myles Kantor, Gail Jarvis, and Karen DeCoster, since they are not LVMI faculty either. Their comments don't tell us anything about LVMI. -Willmcw 17:11, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

The Kantor, Jarvis, DeCoster, etc. bts are there in response to the SPLC stuff, aren't they?; that's why they're relevant. I still haven't figured out what the relevance of Sobran, North, and Francis are. If there's a criticism in there somewhere, in should be stated. If not, then it should not be hinting toward a criticism; e.g. the views about the Holocaust of people Sobran speaks to are not relevant. - Nat Krause 17:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Sobran and North are relevant because they help underscore the SPLC's charge, among other things. -Willmcw 17:33, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Well, that would explain their position in the article. But, the SPLC didn't charge LvMI with being Holocaust deniers or with being Christian reconstructionists. I don't think it makes sense to lump all these things together. - Nat Krause 17:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

They may not all be faculty, but they are affiliates of the Institute. Kantor even goes so far as to specifically name his affiliations with LVMI as a reason for responding to Morris Dees' attack on LVMI. In each and every case it is immediately evident that the material pertains directly to Dees and the SPLC, who you insist upon including with the "neo-confederate" allegation. Sobran, OTOH, has no direct connection to any subject mentioned in the article and to highlight his alleged connections to a holocaust revisionism group has even less. It is plainly obvious that his inclusion, much like Duke's, was for one purpose and one purpose alone - to slip in discrediting information against the LVMI, and that is a blatant NPOV violation. Rangerdude 17:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

DeCoster

• Karen DeCoster writes that Dees and the SPLC "have made zillions from anti-free speech, anti-free press hate campaigns" by making false allegations of racism.[7]

What's our source for this? The link just goes to a list of her articles in the archive. A search on [DeCoster SPLC zillions] brings up zero hits. Also, the gernal rule is that blogs are not sufficient sources. The Myles Kantor, Gail Jarvis, and Tibor Machan references all seem to be to blogs. -Willmcw 04:19, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

• • Why don't you try actually reading the links before making harassing deconstructive and blatantly POV-driven demands about each, Will? Scroll down about halfway and you will see the quote I included verbatim. It links to a full article, and unfortunately that link appears to be dead but the part I quoted is right below the article title. Furthermore, you are blatantly misrepresenting the other references as "blogs" when indeed all are opinion columns published on either LewRockwell or Front Page Magazine. Not all websites are blogs, Will, and neither is there a prohibition on using any of these links as sources. Rangerdude 04:49, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• Dunno about the DeCoster quote--(it appears the original link [8] is now down; a reprint is available here. But curious, how do you know of the rule agains blogs? It seems to me that the arbitrary, artificial line between blogs and "legitimate" publications makes little sense nowadays, especially since there is virtually NO threshold for getting publsihed in many publications, as there are so many, especially some on-line publications. Machan's posts, anyway, are usually columns, even if he puts them on his blog. Stephan Kinsella 04:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites and weblogs, which are not acceptable as sources.[[[Wikipedia:Reliable sources]] -Willmcw 04:56, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

• • Stephan - Contrary to the claims of Willmcw and the carefully truncated section above, there is NO general rule prohibiting blogs on wikipedia. Willmcw is wrong in insinuating that there is - something he has also done repeatedly on other articles where a cited source differs with his own personal political viewpoint. What Wikipedia does have is a guideline on source citation. This guideline has a section against the use of personal websites and webblogs as sources on _factual_ claims. The section generally encourages that all web sources - and especially political ones - be treated with caution due to the well known and widely acknowledged problem that people claim anything and everything on websites. It also happens to have an important caveat, which Willmcw leaves out and appears to be ignoring. Per Wikipedia:Reliable Sources Partisan political and religious websites are discouraged as sources by reason of their bias "except in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group." Citations of articles by LVMI affiliates exhibiting such on political websites such as LewRockwell.com certainly fit under this caveat, contrary to Willmcw's erronious implications. Furthermore, even the source citation guideline for wikipedia is just that - a guideline, not a policy. It represents suggested common editing practices that are generally accepted to "apply in many cases." Guidelines are favored and adherence to them is generally suggested, followed, and recommended for most cases, but they are NOT "laws" of wikipedia and they do not have the force of a prohibition, as an official policy does. That means blogs can indeed be used where the situation deems it appropriate, such as an article about the blog or blogger himself. Rangerdude 05:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

But this isn't an article about a blog or blogger. Have we decided if LewRockwell.com is relevant to LVMI? A short while ago it was claimed that it is not. -Willmcw 05:19, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

I can understand preferring a source from a non-blog source. But why does an article have to be "from" the subject, in order to be relevant? In fact why must there even be a connectoin? In any event, since Lew Rockwll runs the Mises INst., and also LewRockwell.com, and since some writers write for both, and are therefore associated w/ Mises Inst., then their writing on another site ought to satisfy your implicit "connection" test. Stephan Kinsella 05:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

A couple things: 1. The pertinent information here is not WHERE the statements are published but WHO stated them, and in this cases all are sources related to Von Mises and commenting on the SPLC, which has criticized Von Mises. Since the article is about Von Mises, what affiliates of Von Mises say is indeed appropriate when used to indicate their position and thus it is covered under the GUIDELINE caveat about using web sources. 2. Contrary to Willmcw's repeated claims, the regular portion of LewRockwell.com is NOT a webblog. It is an internet magazine that publishes political opinion and commentary pieces. LewRockwell.com does indeed have its own webblog as do many other political sites, but NONE of the cited articles here come from that blog. Willmcw needs to familiarize himself with exactly what a webblog is and is not. A webblog is NOT a term that can be applied to any and every political website containing any commentary, as Willmcw seems to be doing. A webblog is a specific type of website in which an individual author or group of authors publish an informal daily log of their thoughts, opinions, and activities on a uniquely designated site for doing just that. Calling a general political website (or an organization's website, or an opinion commentary website, or a messageboard, or an archive, or even a non-blog personal website) a blog is a clear misuse of the term itself. Rangerdude 05:37, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Race card

• As with many political activities involving the SPLC, the group's application of the "neo-confederate" label is controversial and has been described as defamatory. Several Ludwig von Mises Institute affiliates have denounced the organization for making allegations that they deem irresponsible and for playing the race card

Can we have an exact source for an LVMI "affiliate" calling the "Neo-confederate" charge "irresponsible" and discussing the "race card"? I don't see those terms in the citations. -Willmcw 17:38, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Common Knowledge summaries are acceptable when followed by "links to more detailed articles elsewhere on Wikipedia, or...a citation to a reliable secondary source." In this case, the subsequent links include LVMI affiliates (1) characterizing the SPLC's activities in a manner that can be reasonably summarized to exhibit allegations of irresponsibility on the part of the organization, to wit: "egregious," "defamatory," and descriptions of predatory labelling practices, and (2) criticizing the SPLC's tactics for their use of politicized appeals to race, or what is commonly summarized as playing the race card, to wit: implying that the "Mises Institute seek(s) to restore Hitlerian policies" and allegations of "race hustling" and other similar behavior intended to draw guilt-by-association connections between conservatives and racists. As such, both terms are accurate summaries of the allegations against the SPLC. Rangerdude 18:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)