Talk:Asian fetish

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Should this article be renamed?

One problem with this article is that the term "Asian fetish" is not really used that often in reliable sources. Google Books shows only 34 hits, many of which are simply passing mentions with no encyclopedic value. Google Scholar's record is even more thin: a mere 13 hits. There are lots of Web hits on Google, but the overwhelming majority are unreliable sources that don't come close to meeting WP:V.

I think that we should rename this article and expand its scope. As long as it has the current title, I think it will continue to attract biased and tendentious editing. I tentatively suggest renaming it to "Alleged sexual objectification of Asian women in Western culture." Clunky, but it more accurately summarizes what the article is about, and provides scope to bring in a much wider array of reliable sources without falling afoul of WP:NOR. If anyone has any better suggestions, then please let me know. *** Crotalus *** 08:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

You don't summarise an article with the title, you summarise an article in the WP:LEDE. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:05, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

No, but you create point of view simply with the word fetish. Since it is a recognized psychological condition you're setting a certain tone for the article. If the only people drawing these conclusions about others are not qualified experts then it really is just alleged and not a statement of fact.--Crossmr (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm also frustrated with the fact that there aren't many credible sources on this topic. I think that Crotalus's tentative title will give the impression that the article overlaps too much with stereotypes of East Asians. миражinred 20:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it should be renamed or deleted. Asian fetish doesn't fit the definition of a fetish as defined in either the ICD-10 or the DSM-IV, or even Wikipedia. As we've found, its hard to locate reliable sources for something that doesn't exist. - Headwes (talk) 00:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I myself isn't sure that the title is appropriate. However, I think the title refers to "fetish" in a more colloquial sense as the term seems more like a neologism and thus should not be subject to ICD. Again, this problem goes back to lack of reliable sources which leads to an unclear definition. I think it might be a good idea to come up with a list of tentative titles. миражinred (speak, my child...) 00:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, slightly. The unclear definition is the root of the problem, not the lack of sources. Is this article about a pathology or a preference? What sources we use and which we consider reliable will follow from that. - Headwes (talk) 00:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I generally agree that "Asian fetish" is a poor name, but I think creating a new topic also presents an OR problem unless we have non-trivial sources about the new topic itself. I'm not sure any source quite captures "Alleged sexual objectification of Asian women in Western culture," and that name does suggest some overlap with the stereotypes article. Asian fetish seems to be a known phenomena in the context of dating, but the terminology and the scholarship (if any) is not consistent. I agree with Saranghae honey that "fetish" is being used in a non-technical slang sense, and that the root problem with the article is poor sources. Cool Hand Luke 00:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

"Asian fetish" is, as you say, a slang term, and using a slang term to describe the phenomenon it refers to, is very problematic in an encyclopedia. I think an article on a slang term should only deal with its etymology and usage. As an example, see fuck. It would be completely unsuitable for that article to discuss sexual intercourse in general. Kaitenbushi (talk) 03:12, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

You raise a good point. Perhaps the stereotyping section and studies should be moved to another article that deals with stereotypes and Asian fetish article should just mention controversies and the usage in the media. миражinred (speak, my child...) 03:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

There are many sources that does not treat asian fetish as just something sexual. Fetish means an abnormal obsession. Asian fetish therefore means an abnormal obsession for things that are related to the people or culture of Asia. The term is fine and it's sited in 748 books according to google. User:Crotalus horridus surrounded the term with quotes which greatly limited the many forms in which the term is used in literature but it's very obvious that these authors are referring to asian fetish. It should be kept in mind that User:Saranghae honey and User:Crotalus horridus submitted an AfD for this page. Tkguy (talk) 03:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Google finds 748 books that contain both Asian and fetish in the same volume of text... That's hardly a useful metric. - Headwes (talk) 05:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep. Like Crotalus said, the correct count is 34 (now 35, it seems). Cool Hand Luke 05:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Uncle G has a proposal to rename and merge this topic with Asiaphile, as outlined at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Reducing magnetism. User has also drafted a new article from scratch. I tend to support this solution. Opinions? Cool Hand Luke 04:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• For simplicity (since the Noticeboard discussion will be archived), I repeat here what I said there: The problem with this article and with Asiaphile (AfD discussion) is, in part, that they are both inherently-non-neutral titles. The very names imply a slant on the subject. The two names are both names for a single subject, each with a different implicit point of view inherent in the name itself. (This is based upon what sources say, too.) Thus they attract in non-neutral editors who want to promote the name's point of view and exclude the point of view that is contrary to the one implicit in the title. Per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view we should not have articles that are inherently non-neutral because of their scopes. I've suggested a merger into a neutrally named article before, at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Asiaphile; it's also been suggested here; and there's even a consensus to merge and pick a better name at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Asiaphile/2004-12-14. Rather than have this problem carry on for another 3 years, with non-neutrality as its cause, it is probably time that we bite the bullet, stop the non-neutrality, and do that. See User:Uncle G/Preference for Asian women by non-Asian men for something that you are welcome to start a merged article with. Uncle G (talk) 11:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

First let me say that I doubt I'll involve myself much with this article other than reverting vandalism. Having edited this article in the past (the article looks completely different from then, by the way), I'm resigned to the fact that this article will always attract editors who only want to advance one POV and that editing this article is a waste of effort in the long run. Having said that, however, I do oppose the article renaming. Regardless of whether or not you think a certain writing or article is academic enough to use as a source for the article, a simple google search reveals that there are plenty of opinions out there, and they all refer to this subject with the simple term "Asian fetish" or "Asiaphile". It's not just the people who support the existence of "Asian fetish", even the people feel negatively about the subject use this term, as we even see from Phoebe Eng, Erika Kim and Tracy Quan, who are currently used as sources for this article. Nobody refers to it with drawn out terminology like "Preference for Asian women by non-Asian men" or some such. You also risk running into disconnects with sources by such renaming. If a source refers specifically to "Asian fetish", is it really referring to "preference for Asian women by non-Asian men"? The usage of the term itself has been questioned in some sources. Point is, the article is not so much about "preference for Asian women by non-Asian men", as it is about the term itself, "Asian fetish". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 14:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• You do have to look at those sources though. Fetish is a medical diagnosis. Is anyone who is using this term a psychologist qualified to make that diagnosis? The term is also used in pop culture to simply mean a preference or obsession that may not actually qualify as a fetish. If we don't make certain that we distinguish between the two we're creating our own POV by almost giving legitimacy to their calling it that. If we do have two camps discussing the same thing but giving it different names then we need to find some sort of neutral name for the topic and discuss both terms in the same article.--Crossmr (talk) 15:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Never in the history of the article has it been claimed that it is a classified medical disorder. And the word "fetish" in common English usage does not always refer to a medical diagnosis(dictionary.com definition - [1]). If there is concern that it could be mistaken to be a classified medical disorder, then include content to explain that this is not so. The article does that in the current state[2]. This doesn't take away from the fact that "Asian fetish" is the much more common terminology than "Preference for Asian women by non-Asian men" and its variations. WP:COMMONNAME would dictate that the article stay at its current name. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
  • And again let me point out how this is not a POV issue at all - in our sources, both sides of the "Asian fetish" argument continue to use the term "Asian fetish" itself. It is only WP editors who object to naming this subject as "Asian fetish", not our sources on either side of the argument. So how about we stick to sources instead of original research? Are there sources that refer to this subject matter not as "Asian fetish" or "Asiaphile"? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
    • But the lead section does just that. It very clearly states that asian fetish refers to sexual objectification which is the psychological definition of a fetish. Which makes it seem like the article is going to be about a psychological or medical concept, for which we really have no basis. The lead doesn't clarify who it is that has defined this term as such. Its only the American Heritage's 4th definition An abnormally obsessive preoccupation or attachment; a fixation. which really defines what we're describing here. Which is certainly not a global view. The other definitions don't match what the sources are saying. Our sources aren't universally saying that they think asians have magical powers, or that they revere them, as reverence wouldn't carry a negative connotation. We now have the text saying its not in the psychological diagnostic books, which is good, but we need to make sure we've got a source there at least for someone to verify it against. I'm not sure if the full text of both of these are available online or not. The text was there and not there, and then back again (rightly or wrongly) but it needs to stay there. If it ends up removed again nothing in the lead clarifies that the use of Asian fetish comes from non-psychologists.--Crossmr (talk) 18:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Woh wait a minute, logical fallacy here - the fact that the psychology community defines a fetish as sexual objectification does not make all sexual objectification a medically diagnosed condition. A guy can sexually objectify something as simple as a girl wearing a bikini. Here's a simpler comparison - a german shephard is a dog, but not all dogs are german shephards. Again, the article has never once claimed that it is a medically diagnosed condition, and "Asian fetish" is by far the most common terminology. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 21:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
        • I never said it wasn't the most common term. A guy can sexually objectify a girl in a bikini, but that doesn't make it a fetish. It most certainly doesn't because actual fetishism centers around sexualizing non-sexual things. Most bikinis are made to be sexy. The people who write using the term fetish aren't qualified medical professionals. However the lead is written in such a way that it defines Asian fetish just like it belonged in Sexual_fetishism, but as pointed out it clearly isn't recognized as such by the medical community. My point is that we have to avoid, common name or not, possibly giving the reader a reason to believe that this is being presented as any kind of accepted medical condition as some other fetishes may be. The trailing sentence in the lead is very important to this and if we don't want to combine asiaphile and asian fetish to create a larger article, we need to ensure that it remains there. Just because we have a reliable source who says something doesn't mean we should blindly reprint what they've written, knowing that the term has another widely accepted and used meaning, context is important to distinguish this. This could even be as simple as identify the people that use this term simply as writers.--Crossmr (talk) 23:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
          • If the lead is misleading for the reader, then edit it for clarity. The push to rename this article here is based on nothing but original research, and is against both WP:COMMONNAME and the practice of using reliable sources - again, "Asian fetish" is the term used by sources on both sides of the argument. I mean, we might as well rename Spotted dick if article name is the end-all-and-be-all to an article's subject matter. But Spotted dick continues to have its article name because that's the most common name for the subject matter. I'd like to point out also, that in the article's past versions, there was extensive coverage to explain terminology in addition to the subject that the term "Asian fetish" refers to. But that has long been taken out. Perhaps it is time to add it back in. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
            • As I was revising my response I had meant to say that I was okay with leaving the name as it was so long as the origin was clear. I guess I accidentally chopped it. If there was more clarity in past versions it would be good to provide it again as long as its properly sourced.--Crossmr (talk) 01:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
              • Ok that's great. Like I said before, I've basically given up on this article, so I'll take my leave of the discussion now. But I implore all interested editors to look at this subject with a neutral eye. It doesn't matter what you personally think of the subject matter, what matters is what the sources say, and that the two prevalent sides of the issue needs to be presented. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
• Wrong on several points: Nobody refers to it with drawn out terminology like "Preference for Asian women by non-Asian men" or some such. — Wrong, as reading even just the sources cites in the current article would have shown. Hu and Fisman both use that description, for examples; and, conversely, several sources cited in the current article make no mention of a "fetish". the article is not so much about "preference for Asian women by non-Asian men", as it is about the term itself — If that were true, the article would be a misplaced dictionary article. Fortunately, it isn't true. this is not a POV issue at all — Yes, it is. We even have sources that tell us this outright. Please read them. The push to rename this article here is based on nothing but original research — Wrong yet again. It's based upon what the sources say. The sources say that the existing two names are inherently biased, and connote opposing slanted views on a single subject.

  Your argument here amounts to nothing more than counting Google hits. As Wikipedia:Google test says, that's a long-since debunked way of making an argument. Worse, your argument is saying that because the non-neutral names are more common, Wikipedia should be non-neutral too. In fact, our Wikipedia:Neutral point of view fundamental policy overrides our naming conventions. Counting Google hits is not research. Uncle G (talk) 01:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge from User:Saranghae honey's sandbox

I liked these revisions, so I merged them into the history of this article, which gives GFDL-required attribution. The difference between this version and the former version is seen in this diff.[3] Cool Hand Luke 05:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't like the changes. removed a the mail-order bride section for no reason. Still presents the Fisman opinionated article as a study. The WP:LEAD is pushing a POV. White men are not the only ones who can have an asian fetish. But you already added it anyway. 05:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tkguy (talk • contribs)

Didn't we discuss WP:FRINGE already? They should not be brought back without reliable sources. миражinred (speak, my child...) 23:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Prostitution

“ According to Sheridan Prasso, prostitution in Thailand and prostitution in the Philippines is largely supported by men with Asian fetish. ”

Would someone mind posting a quote from this book where she links prostitution in the Phillipines with Asian fetish? Also, what sources does she cite to support this? - Headwes (talk) 06:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you actually read the book? have you read the book? if not please do not assume that this is not so. She spends much of the book talking about the sex tourism industry in thailand and the phillipines and bangkok and other countries. How they began and how they are striving to this day. Tkguy (talk) 07:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh course. That's the topic of the book. But where, specifically does she claim sex tourism is supported by Asian fetish? (and not ordinary horniness, the proliferation of prostitution, or even pedophilia?) We can't just assume that she said sex tourism is driven by Asian fetish. Cool Hand Luke 07:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

All references must specifically justify the claims in question. Any speculative interpretation is considered original research and not allowed. Please cite the specific quote from this book (including page number) where Prasso attributes prostitution in Thailand and the Phillippines to Asian fetish. *** Crotalus *** 12:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I checked the book in question on Google Books. Although not all pages are available, the book does discuss Asian fetish at some length. I found the section discussing prostitution in Thailand and the Philippines (starting p. 153), but I did not find any statement justifying the claim that it "is largely supported by men with Asian fetish." I would rather we go with a direct quote than a paraphrase. We cannot go beyond what the source itself claims. *** Crotalus *** 12:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The book is a controversial pop-psychology piece, that really should not be quoted here as a credible source. But the idea that prostitution is supported by "men with an asian fetish" is of course ridiculous. Everyone knows that the great bulk of prostitution — including sexual slavery, child prostitution and abuse, and other malicious sexual crimes — is committed by asian men on asian women. Want proof? Just google "asian men prostitution"— a plethora of nasty and twisted ways that asian men propogate and sustain the horrible sexual business trade among women, both of age, and underaged. Asian gangs have a great part to play in this. In the end, what we have here is the tendency for some to blow this whole issue out of hand, and make it into a huge crime by white men against asian women. It's silly. ~~computer1200 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.217.103 (talk) 20:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed edits per request

I've removed certain edits from this talk page history, so they're now located at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/More about Tkguy, where discussion is more appropriately focused on the editor. The removal of these edits explains the weird diff here[4], where several intermediate edits have obviously been removed. The time stamps and contributers for these edits are all as they appear. By siphoning off these edits, this content can easily be deleted once the relevant ANI is over. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed community topic ban for User:Tkguy on Asian fetish.

Remember, article talk pages should be focused on improving articles rather than criticizing editors. The proper forum for discussion about editors is WP:RFC/U, WP:ANI, WP:RFAR, and similar pages. WP:CIVIL. Cool Hand Luke 07:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

This was archived at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive354#Proposed community topic ban for User:Tkguy on Asian fetish. Like many ANI threads, it didn't garner much continuing interest, but I think there's at least support for a community 1RR restriction on Tkguy for this subject. Here were the independent commentators: Jayron32 (supporting community topic ban), Spartaz (suggesting voluntary 1RR), Jehochman (who insisted that RFC/U should be done first), MastCell and Sandstein (supporting topic ban or at least 1RR). Only Jehochman appeared opposed to community sanction, and he didn't follow up on questions from us, who appear 100% in favor of a topic ban.

It appears that Tkguy has left the project for now, but if he returns, he should know that any edit warring (reverting more than once per day) should result in blocks. Tkguy should try to persuade others on the talk page if he wishes to continue. Cool Hand Luke 03:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Tkguy did create a new article for Asiaphile however. It probably should have been DRV'd, but editors here might be interested in simply redirecting it anyway, as per Uncle G's suggestion. Cool Hand Luke 03:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me.--Crossmr (talk) 03:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia Pornography?

A fetish is sexual in nature, but the article itself does not discuss pornography. I have searched "asian fetish" and "pornography" to find reliable articles and sources only to see results that show porn sites on the top and nothing else. Should this article be a part of Wikipedia pornography? миражinred (speak, my child...) 02:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

No, Google is not a source. A lot of terms would only porn when searched in conjunction with "pornography." The concept has been published in reliable sources outside of porn—the whole Asian Mystique book seems to be largely about the topic. We should just fix the article by removing OR and extraneous material. It'll be smaller, but verifiable. Cool Hand Luke 03:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting work at User:Uncle G/Preference for Asian women by non-Asian men

I thought User:Uncle G's work was very interesting and relevant since we are discussing possibly renaming the article. The possible draft discusses terminology of connected terms such as "Asiaphile" and "Asiaphilia." It does contain fringe sources that have been deleted per the discussion at this talk page such as AsianWeek, but it does contain work from academia that are not on the Asian fetish article yet. I don't know if an article titled "Preference for Asian women by non-Asian men" will be created at Wikipedia but the title seems more accurate and it is at least worth a look. миражinred (speak, my child...) 20:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• I read his version and I noticed several problems with it. The whole page is incredibly US-centric. In common UK usage the term "Asian" often refers to South Asians, whereas in common US usage the term "Asian" often refers to Oriental Asians (East Asians and South-East Asians). The "Asian fetish" usually applies to Oriental Asians. Besides, Asia is a large continent. Technically, if a British man married an Israeli woman, from the way this article reads, there's nothing to say that that is not an "Asian fetish" because Israel is geographically in Asia (although much nearer Europe and North Africa than Japan or China). Equally, if a Turkish man marries a Chinese woman, despite them being both "Asian" (i.e. from the geographical continent of Asia), the racial differences are so pronounced that the Turkish man could be seen to have this "Asian fetish" which wouldn't make sense because he is "Asian" himself, although much closer to European than he is to his wife's race. Aside from the terminology, the entire page makes little to no reference to the concept of preference of non-Oriental men to Oriental women outside a United States context. I know for a fact that such pairings occur fairly frequently in the United Kingdom as well - and then there's the rest of the world to consider, too.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 23:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Us-centric is a problem.. I need to look, but the authors we're quoting who are using the term asian-fetish, are they all north american? Because again this will create a context that is extremely important for the reader to understand. Perhaps this is solely a viewpoint held by those authors in north america and really isn't a global view or issue.--Crossmr (talk) 23:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I know that Wikipedia is not a forum, but also, Wikipedia is a community, and I'm curious that since this article is hotly disputed, some of the editors here may be white males who are interested in East Asian women. I personally don't really see the appeal in particular. It just concerns me that editors with strong views towards or against this topic may be inclined towards POV-pushing.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 23:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Crossmr, I agree that it's a problem that this topic tends to be US-centric, but it's not unknown outside the US. As I said, the "Asian fetish" definitely seems to be known in the UK, if not written about as much. In fact I've talked to white males from different European countries who've mentioned it.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 23:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
        • It would be nice to have some reliable sources from across the world to really put it in perspective for the reader if they exist. Editors can come to an article for a lot of reasons, and that could very well be one of them, but let's try and assume good faith (even on a controversial article) until an editor gives us a good reason to think otherwise. My only concern here is to make sure everything is sourced properly and npov is being followed. As things calm down it should be easier to hold discussions about individual pieces of text and ensure that we have consensus for how they're written and what is being used as a source.--Crossmr (talk) 01:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Of course they are. They disagree that it's a "fetish" and argue that they are "Asiaphiles". And the people with the opposing view say that it's not a genuine -philia, it's simply a "fetish" that regards women as objects. And because we have two separate articles, each with a name that connotes a single point of view on the subject, we get splits and mergers and neutrality disputes, and go around and around and around for at least three years, now. As I said above, it's time to bite the bullet and stop this, by using a neutral title that gives the article a neutral scope. Uncle G (talk) 02:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
  • As I said above, it's something to start a merged article from. U.S.-centrism is simply a reflection of what sources I was able to find, all of which discussed solely the U.S.. If you find any sources that discuss the subject for other countries specifically, then there's nothing stopping you adding another section for that country. The "by American men" in the section title was intended to be a glaringly obvious hint in this regard. ☺

    I don't claim credit for this title, by the way. Most of the sources use this phraseology. Chang, for example, talks of the "preference for Oriental women". (Yes, she uses "Asian Fetish" in the title of her paper. But that's actually a prime example of loaded language. She's in the camp that has the point of view that it is a real honest-to-goodness sexual fetish. She even pulls out Freud.) Similarly, Ming Tan uses "The preference for Asian Women" as the title for part 1 of her book. That's slightly too large a scope for this article. (She includes Asian men as well as non-Asian men in the scope of what she's discussing, addressing the former in chapter 6.) Uncle G (talk) 02:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• I would like to see some mention of "Asian fetish" from the perspective of the United Kingdom, but I haven't tried looking for sources.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 01:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• It's clear that white males from various countries do have a form of this "Asian fetish". When I was in Romania, I talked to a guy there who said he wanted to have sex with an East Asian woman.-h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 01:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

True. It's very US-centric. миражinred (speak, my child...) 03:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

What we don't know...

This article raises many questions. Is "Asian fetish" used as a means of explaining the white-Asian couples? In most of the white-Asian couples I've seen, they married the person, not the race. Is it possible for women to have Asian fetish? Is it possible for half-Asians to have Asian fetish? Is it possible for bisexuals to have Asian fetish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.204.104 (talk) 15:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC) Why are Caucasian men stereotyped as having this Asian fetish? Do people with Asian fetish generally have love-shyness? What causes Asian fetish? Do people hide Asian fetish? There are support groups for bi-questioning people. Are there support groups for Asian fetish questioning people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.214.46 (talk) 17:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

An encyclopedic article?

The article, as it stands, is highly inaccurate as an encyclopedic entry.

Firstly, the term “Asian fetish” does NOT refer to the sexual objectification of people of Asian descent. That definition seems to have come at a much later date in an attempt to dignify what IS an extremely offensive expression with terminology that dresses with the semblance of authentic “research”. The first sentence the entry bears the hallmarks and all the objectivity of a freshman Feminism 101 essay. It is POV as pure psychobabble!

“Asian Fetish” is an American woman’s derogatory term used against a Caucasian man who dates or marries a woman of East Asian decent. It first surfaced sometime in the very late 1980's or early 1990’s among Caucasian woman in Caifornia, possibly at the University of California, Berkley campus.

See http://www.modelminority.com/article113.html This article very specificaly says that it is American women who use the term and to whom it is appied.

The term also denigrates Asians by inference that it is un-natural for a white man to date or marry an Asian woman, persumably because she is inferior. As a matter of fact the slang usage of a valid psycological term "fetish" goes even further in dehumanizing Asian women.

The Britannica Concise Encyclopedia entry for fetishism gives, in part:

. . . (an) erotic attachment to an inanimate object or a nongenital body part whose real or fantasized presence is necessary for sexual gratification. See www.answers.com/topic/fetishism

Thus a very real human, a woman who happens to be Asian, is reduced to being an inanimate object and another very real human, a man who happens to be "white", is suffering from some sort of insanity, i.e. perversion.

The term, to me (my POV) seems to be simply a hateful attack and objectification of white men and Asian women. The term's imaging is that the all powerful, oppressive brute of a white man seizes by force the poor, defenseless Asian woman to use for his sick perversions (rape?). What an extremely simplistic and dare I say feminist view it is, but it is effective. Yes, the more I read about the term the more feminism seems to rear its head.

Personally I only recently heard the phrase, on an American TV program, and it was used in a derogatory way.

Might I suggest that the article be either rewriten to reflect what IS known about the term, rename it as suggested by *** Crotalus ***, or delete it all together. It is unworthy as it stands. GeeOh (talk) 08:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

GeeOh, this article has already been through AfD four times. One of them was initiated by me. Unless you can pile up some convincing evidence that the article should be deleted, I would not try. However, if you have any reliable sources to back up your claim and add to the article, it would be very helpful. мirаgeinred سَراب ٭ (talk) 20:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

мirаgeinred سَراب ٭ - OK, I understand. But the areticle is inaccurate since the term is a derogatory term similar in vein to "Jungle Fever" which itself might just as easily be restylized as "Afican fetish". For example:

African fetish refers to sexual objectification of people of African descent, typically females, who are "objectified and valued not for who they are as people, but for their wonderfully dark skin or perceptions of their musical abilities."

That would be offensive to me as well. There is by the way another term, miscegenation which is far older and not, as I see it, hate slang. Although the word, at least in the U.S. seems to be applied only or predominantly to Black/White relationships.

Can anyone give a reason why the slang:hate/American origins of the term is not given in this entry or why that fact seems to be suppressed in favor of some pseudo-psyco-feminist jargon? —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeeOh (talk • contribs) 01:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't really call it a feminist term. And your objection is one of the reasons why this topic is so questionable and if the topic deserves an article at all, at least under this name. The most commonly used argument against deleting this article is that it is simply notable. However, like you said, the article itself can fail against Wikipedia:Coatrack and invite non-neutral POV. мirаgeinred سَراب ٭ (talk) 01:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I support GeeOh's suggestion: write about the term or rename the article. There is nothing wrong with having an article about a slang term, but that article should not be used to document the phenomenon the term refers to. Kaitenbushi (talk) 00:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

мirаgeinred سَراب ٭ I agree that the term in and of itself is not a feminist term. However, the appearence of jargon at the begining of this encyclopedic entry would lead a reader to the mistaken belief that this American slang is somehow a genuine, and recognizable, psycological condition.

I still hold, although I cannot prove, that the definition of the term has a high feminist slant to it for the above reasons given.

True, Kaitenbushi, and I agree, there is, indeed nothing wrong with having an article about a slang term . . . as long as it is about the term being slang . . . and this term is slang and it is also used derogatorily, i.e. as an attack against a person or group of people intended to give harm or cause harm. BTW: It is THAT that makes it hate.

Since I have not been given a reason why the American slang origins of the term should not be given in this entry I am considering making the change myself. I will be abiding by the NPOV policy, as I can.

GeeOh (talk) 05:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It always felt like the article had some problems from the start, but I don't even know where to begin. I would try to get more opinions on this. мirаgeinred سَراب ٭ (talk) 06:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The opinion of someone is the opinion of someone who is notable, reliable, neutral, and/or accurate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.180.253 (talk) 21:08, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Blacks and Asians

Hey now! This article is allll about white guys and asian chicks! What about us poor black dudes??? Pvegeta 13:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It happens, although it is not as common as white guys and Asian girls. I mean, I have an Asian cousin who married a black guy, and I saw that type of couple a bit at Legoland once with kids. It's the same reason that this article doesn't mention Asian dudes and white girls (or Asian dudes and black girls), although that happens too. I mean, my pastor is an Asian dude with a white girl, my dad's ex-roommate's brother is too, so is this guy who leads the Young Life Ministry at my church. The article lacks a lot of information.--69.234.220.41 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:11, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

At my school, which is predominantly Asian, we were hosting some performers from China, and the ladies were pretty eager to take photos with me, which was kinda cool...(and yes, they were attractive!) A fellow student who was an Asian-American female, remarked that it seemed like they never seen a black guy before! Just learn a language, get to know the culture and people...it shouldn't really matter what your racial background is.--Joel Lindley (talk) 17:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that another thing is that it seems like black guys would rather have blond or black chicks than Asian ones. (Just judging by couples I've seen.)--69.234.210.7 (talk) 18:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't emcompass all black males, of course...--Joel Lindley (talk) 17:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be something about men who want asian women. This isn't a matter of men who date and marry asian women but those that desire them. The used said that asian women often avoid black men. This is a huge factor.75.6.180.253 (talk) 21:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't say much for Asian women, if that generalization were true...--Joel Lindley (talk) 17:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

What about women who desire Asian men? I am a half-Asian guy and I wonder if that happens...--69.234.186.24 (talk) 18:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, that never happens <sarcasm>. What kind of question is that, and what relevance does it have to the topic at hand?165.123.139.232 (talk) 12:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

study source

The article says it used college students but the study says it used middle aged people. WUT?!YVNP (talk) 01:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Nothing new under the sun

Are Asian fetishists any different than anyone else who looks at what's on the outside than what's on the inside? --69.234.186.24 (talk) 18:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

that's not what wikipedia is for. Asian fetish sees asian women as submissive. That's on the inside75.6.152.250 (talk) 07:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay they make assumptions about the inside based on the outside. Is it important enough to stay in wikipedia? Perhaps if they explain why it happens (that's what I want to know) that would help.--69.234.212.22 (talk) 18:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

What is the purpose here, anyway? To investigate why more white men go with asian women than the other way around? I don't think so, I don't even know if this article should stay...--69.234.177.7 (talk) 19:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)