Talk:Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality

Concept

I feel that this article is necessary, because the term "Narodnost" is only marginally corresponds to its translations, "Nationality", "Nationalism", and hence requires explanations. I cannot do this right now. It is also quite possible that a better translation exists. Mikkalai 17:26, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Recently, I happened to re-read a collection of letters by Dostoyevskiy. He was an ardent supporter of this motto and I think he explained his adherence to it somewhere. The thing could be added, though I can't recall any citations right now.--Constanz - Talk 17:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, the article lists the terms in the wrong order. It is "Pravoslavie, Samoderzhavie i Narodnost'" Since it is an established phrase, we cannot rephrase it by changing the word order. So, the article needs moved. Just FYI: there is a Britannica article on the subject.

As for the translation of "Narodnost'", I am not sure either. Both Nationality (used by EB) and National Character (suggested by Mikka) are not quite exact. Perhaps "National Ethos"? Or another alternative is Pravoslaviye, Samoderzhaviye, I Narodnost, which also has a disatvantage, obviously.

Let's decide on this now since the article needs moved anyway because of the wrong word order. --Irpen 21:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Has been a while. Where should I move it? --Irpen 02:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Narodnost is difficult to translate, and any translation has its disadvantages. So perhaps leave it at National Character? That would mean changing the title to Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and National Character. Errabee 11:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Before any move please provide a contemporary (ie 19th century) reference. In modern texts I saw both variants. Judging from the Imperial Russian constitution I have reasonable doubs that "Autocracy" is on the second place. `'mikka 19:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Граф Сергей Уваров

Православие, Самодержавие, Народность
О некоторых общих началах, могущих служить руководством при управлении Министерством народного просвещения

Доложено Его Величеству 19 ноября 1833 г.

По вступлению моему с высочайшего Вашего Императорского Величества повеления в должность Министра народного просвещения, употребил я, так сказать, заглавным, местом, лозунгом моего управления, следующие выражения: "Народное воспитание должно совершаться в соединенном духе Православия, Самодержавия и Народности"...

[1] I think it settles it. Moving? --Irpen 01:14, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

this is exactly the same thing as Official Nationality, right?

I'm going to redirect one of them.P4k (talk) 22:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's almost the same thing. Official Nationality is one of three principles.DonaldDuck (talk) 01:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Untranslateble Russian words

• There is some strange claim in the article - "Narodnost is not translatable, and it means something different."

In fact the word Narodnost itself appeared in Russian as translation of French term fr:Nationalité and with regard to the similar Polish term pl:Narodowość. And it means exactly the same as english words Nationalism and Populism.DonaldDuck (talk) 02:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

So it means exactly the same thing as two English words with completely different meanings. This is a good demonstration of why it's accurate to say that Narodnost has no (single) English equivalent. Saying that a word's meaning is lost or altered in translation is not some mystical, obscurantist claim. The fact that it was originally a translation from French is irrelevant. In any case replacing cited content with uncited content is rarely justifiable. Why am I supposed to take your word over that of the authors I cited?P4k (talk) 02:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Anyway fuck it. I'm mad but what you wrote is probably not wrong so the article can just incorporate all this information.P4k (talk) 02:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)