Talk:Saponi

Tribal heritage

I would like to offer a corrective here. The "Saponi" groups recognized today in North Carolina merely claim that tribal heritage. There is no proof that any are actually the descendants of the Saponi. Historical records from North Carolina, Pennsylvania and New York indicate the Saponi moved north from Virginia about 1744, merged with the Five Nations (or Six Nations, inclcuding the Tuscarora, from North Carolina) by 1753, and were essentially absorbed into several northern Iroquois groups. The last distinct Saponi village in New York was decimated during the American Revolution.

To date, none of the tribes in North Carolina, except for the Eastern Band of Cherokee, has any proven descent from Native American tribes.

Hmm, the page doesn't say that today's North Carolina groups have proven their ancestry, merely that the state recognizes three groups and that some people claim ancestry, but it is controversial. Sounds ok to me. I think there is pretty good evidence (but not proof as far as I know) that not all the Saponi and related peoples moved north to the Iroquois lands. There's a fairly in-depth study on the topic published on the web here http://www.ibiblio.org/dig/html/part2/index2_1.html or as a PDF here http://rla.unc.edu/Publications/NCArch/SIS_40(e-book).pdf ..some of which is summarized over at Occaneechi. In any case, I don't see anything about proof on this page, so I'm not sure what you would like to correct. Pfly 20:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually you need to do some more reading about the Saponi before you decide to make a statement like that. There is ample proof that the Tutelo that went to the 6 Nations were not the last of the Saponi or Tutelo, simply a small group that left. (See Richard Carlson) http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/fullcit/3115947

'Who's your people?': Cumulative identity among the Salyersville Indian population of Kentucky's Appalachia and the midwest muckfields, 1677--2000

His dissertation is one of several that show proof of the history and ancestory of our people. There are court records, census records, and even field ethnology reports about our people. Just because a tribe or people isn't recognized by the Federal government or even a state doesn't mean they are not a people or Indian.

Also the following from a very prominent field ethnographer Robert K. Thomas:

Here is the letter written to a lady in Coeburn, VA in 1980, submitted by Keri Conley: August 12, 1980 Dear Mrs. Stallard: I am writing to you to thank you and your husband for your kindness to me when I was in Coeburn last month. I am now finished with my survey of the Indian groups in the southern Appalachian area and am back in Michigan. Since you seemed interested in the history of the Collins family in your area, I will pass along to you what I know of their history. As far as I can determine, all the Collins of Northeastern Tennessee, Southeastern Virginia, and Eastern Kentucky are descendants of one household of Collins who resided in Orange County, N.C. in 1760: a family of Saponi Indians. I know that it must be “mind-boggling” to imagine that the thousands of Collinses in your area are all descended from just one household, but such is the case. Further, this is not so amazing as it sounds. It is common among pre-Revolutionary American families. For instance, all the Carters in the South are descended from three brothers who came to Virginia in the late 1600’s. Let me start at the beginning , with the Saponi Indians. The Saponi were an advanced tribe who originally lived on the Roanoke River about where it crosses over into North Carolina from Virginia. In the late 1660’s, they moved further west to the area of modern Clarksville, VA. Here they allied with the neighboring Tutelo and Occanuki Indians. All of these tribes spoke similar languages, a variety of language akin to modern Sioux of the Dakotas. In the 1670’s, they got into a war with Virginia whites, the so-called Bacon Rebellion, and moved west to the Yadkin Valley around modern Winston Salem. In the early 1700’s, the Saponi started migrating east, returning to their original homeland. In 1714 Governor Spotswood of Virginia established Ft. Christanna near modern Lawrenceville,VA and convinced the Saponi, Occanuki, and Tutelo to settle there. In about 1722, the Tutelo left and joined the Iroquois in New York , and during the Revolution, fled to Canada where they now live on the Six Nations Reserve near Brantford, Ontario. The Occanuki were absorbed by the Saponi in this period. About 1728, the Saponi became involved in a war with the Tuscarora and Nottowa Indians who lived further east. They fled from Ft. Christanna, and went to live with the Catawba in South Carolina. In the early 1740’s, the Saponi left the Catawba country and started north. By 1740, Collins and Bowling (Scien, Bolling, etc.) were common family names among the Saponi. One band of Saponi headed north to the Iroquois area and were adopted by the Cayuga and Seneca. There are descendants of the Saponi now on the Caltaraugus’s reservation near Buffalo; some of them named Collins. Another band of Saponi stopped in North Carolina and settled on the plantation of Colonel William Eaton, near what is now Henderson, N.C. The Saponi had fought with Eaton in the wars with the Ohio Valley tribes. Eaton’s plantation was on the frontier and the Saponi were, no doubt, his protectors. Around 1750, several tribes further east --- the Nansemond, Yeopin, and Poroskite --- lost their lands and began to fragment into individual family groups. These Indian families began to migrate to the frontier and settle near the Saponi. In 1760, Eaton died and the frontier had moved on. The Saponi lost their land base then and also began to fragment into individual families, and move west. In 1760’s, I can pick up the Collins in Orange County, on the frontier, west of Hendersonville, N.C. By 1790, many of these Indian families, including the Collinses, had “bunched up” in the counties of extreme northeastern North Carolina. Then in the 1790’s, they spread all over Northeastern Tennessee, Southwestern Virginia, and over into what is now Letcher and Knott Counties, Kentucky. Many of them , like the Bollings of Wise County, became prominent families in their areas. Then, in the 1830’s, Virginia became one of the more consciously racist and deliberately elitist states in the Union. First , most poor whites were disenfranchised by a property value requirement; most Virginians west of the Blue Ridge, as well as the poor further east, could not legally vote in Virginia. Further, a new legal category included citizen Indians, free blacks, and all non-whites. These “free colored” could not vote, bear arms, travel freely, etc. In southwest Virginia and neighboring parts of Tennessee, the more established Indian families “weathered the storm”. The Bollings in Wise County, redefined their status as being descendants of Pocahontas and John Rolfe, thus escaping the free colored category. Other families who were less wealthy, darker, and concentrated in one area, got caught in the free colored category; and, thus the Melungeons of southern Wise County came into existence. By 1840, the situation became intolerable for some Indians in Southwest Virginia, and they began to head for Kentucky, a less repressive social and legal atmosphere. In the 1840’s, three Collins families moved into Kentuckey, into Letcher County. In the 1850’s, two Collins families moved to Johnson County, just south of Paintsville (Grandpap William Collins and brother). {Frankie’s note here: This is where my 2nd great grandparents Griffin and Rachael Collins went also, and were listed as Mulatto on Johnson County census records} These Collinses were very Indian looking and dark. They must have been almost full-blood Indians.} In Virginia, Tennessee, and North Carolina, Indians were just another variety of “n----r” in the 1850’s, but Kentucky was much more liberal, at least in regards to Indians. By World War I, the situation had changed. Being Indian had almost a romantic prestige about it, and many families like the Collinses in Kentucky, had become successful mainstream citizens. It was at this piont that the Melungeons began to be seen as possibly being part black, in order to explain their low rank and exclusion. Of coarse, the Collinses did not stop in Johnson County. The lower Big Sandy drainage and Southern Ohio is full of Collinses who migrated to those areas from further south in Kentucky and Virginia after the Civil War. Not all the Collinses headed west in 1760 after Colonel Eaton died. Some few went south to what is now Robeson County, North Carolina, and became part of the modern Lumbee Indians in that region. The history of the Collins family is both remarkable and fascinating. They are almost an “ethnic group” all by themselves. There are Seneca Cayuga Collinses in New York, White and Melungeon Collinses in east Tennessee and Southeast Virginia, part-Indian Collinses all down the Big Sandy and into Southern Ohio, Lumbee Indian Collinses in North Carolina --- all, at least distantly, related and all descended from two or three households of Saponi Indians in 1740. Someone should write a novel about your family; at least, you should rent a stadium and have a family reunion. What an “outfit”! I hope this brief sketch of the Collins family history repays you for your kindness to me, some small measure. Sincerely, Robert K. Thomas

Further reading on Robert K. Thomas can be found here to validate his work on the Native American Indian experience:

http://works.bepress.com/robert_thomas/

The Real Saponi

The photo on the Saponi wiki page is of the Guy family, they was Catawba, NOT Saponi.

Also the "Occaneechi Saponi" and "Sapony" tribes in NC have no proof of any Saponi decent. These two tribe's ancestors was not in The Granville area till around the late 1700's to early 1800's. They are using information about the Saponi and Collins family. The "Sapony" tribe descends from the Nottoway tribe while the occaneechi Saponi tribe descends from the Catawba tribe so they should NOT be added to this page which discuses the Saponi. If this page was about Catawba or Nottoway then the "Sapony" and "Occaneechi Saponi" would belong...however this is about the historical Saponi.