Talk:Nerd

Defines Alvin —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thepeopleoftheschool (talk • contribs) 23:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

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1. August 2005 – December 2006

== Is Nerd a term invented by people who want to put down male traits?==SLOPPY FITERZ It is a well known scientific fact that the male brain tends to be less socially able than the female brain and is more in general better at maths and map reading than the female brain While the female brain tends to be better at English (or languages), and social skills. Therefore it is possible the term nerd is just used to put down people who have ther male brains. I wonder this about autism too, are alot of people with autism just people with higher male brains. There is much much academic evidence that social skills are better in women. And that men tend to be better at maths and map reading. So I think it is reasonable to ask if the article should ask is "nerd" just a way of putting men down. Was is a term created out of jealousy by men who were better socially but maybe not very good acedemically. It is also true that men with womens brains tend to be more likely to be gay. So was this extreme jealousy that sparked the invention of the phrase nerd. I have some links to proove this. http://www.viewzone.com/fingers.html

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-10/bis-aft102004.php  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.155.65 (talk) 13:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC) 

The Word Nerd was coined by Dr. Seuss

It was always my understanding that Nerd first appeared in the Dr. Seuss book, "If I Ran The Zoo". There is a page located here that discusses this origin of the word. http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/nerd.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.2.240.249 (talk) 19:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC). (attribution added by Brons 18:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC))

This assertion is a little stronger than my researches (that web page is mine and really should be http://www.eldacur.com/~brons/NerdCorner/nerd.html) show. The Dr. Seuss origin has the virtue that he used the term before any appearance of the slang term nerd in any spelling, and matches the earliest spelling exactly, but there is no certain proof. -- Brons 16:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I always thought that 'nerd' was coined by the Happy Days TV show writers. I lived in Milwaukee at the time the show was first aired. Nerd was never used by anyone I knew, and my parents never heard it used either. So for it to appear on Happy Days, which was situated in our city, we just assumed it was a made-up word on the show. After looking over the evidence it is pretty convincing that it originated with Dr. Seuss, spread to young readers (or the people reading it to them), and got into the teen lexicon of the time. However, Happy Days needs to be mentioned as it was the launching of the word into permanent use (to my disappointment as I always thought it a pretty useless term). It was Happy Days, and especially 'The Fonz' - character Arthur Fonzerelli (played by Henry Winkler), that made the word a sensation. I was a teen at the time and it really went out there into the masses. That made the way for 'Revenge of the Nerds'. At that time it really meant 'square', 'dullard', unpopular, or boring person. It was really just a general derogatory term sort of like jerk (without the current connotation of jerk as a blow hard). It was not really used to refer to a smart person, but it did not exclude someone with high intelligence. It simply did not refer to a studious, intelligent person at the time. Since people who studied a lot and did not get into the high school popularity cycle were also thought of as dull and boring - the two become entwined with each other until the word developed an alternative meaning of "Bright and more interested in study than play - most often in high tech fields".

Point I want to make is that I think 'Happy Days' needs to be mentioned. (There were other phrases/words - remember "sit on it" also popularized by the show and other 70's shows as well - maybe research on this would be insightful)

As to the connection with 'geek' - there really was none in my experience. Geek was used way back (in films and literature) as a freak - as in Circus Freak. Someone who ate live fish or raw chicken parts was referred to as a geek. It was also used as a derogatory term for someone who resembled these professional Geeks. Then in the 80's 'Geek' started reappearing. It went to more common usage to be used like Jerk (much like nerd). Then was redefined to mean weirdos obsessed with high tech devices or games (almost exclusively males). I saw it used mostly about video gamers, computer hackers, and role playing afficionados - who gave up bathing or socializing for their obsession. Now it has become a more general term again - even has a little positive spin on it - since some of these people have become successful. Loki-dog (talk) 16:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Original Research

This article appears to be little but original research. There is not a reference in sight! Pathlessdesert 00:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No, but then again, it's the explanation of a stereotype. Stereotypes are merely very 'primitive' versions of original research, separating people into very rigid classifications, and thusly, many people may turn to such a page to provide the boundaries of said rigid classification. Thusly, there really can't be any references because they do not exist. So we either go with accepted norms grouped with the term 'nerd' or delete the page entirely, which might lead a a catastophe similar to the Zezima page -- arguments, arguments, arguments and no progress whatsoever, so I propose we stick with such "original research." Sporks.Are.Loverly 18:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Sporks.Are.Loverly

If their is no references avalaibles, this topic shouldn't be in wikipedia. A topic on which their is no previous research by anyone (because, in fact, that's what it means) does not have its place in an encyclopedia but in a dictionnary... BiffTheUnderstudy

I have been adding citations for early appearances of the word under its various spellings, in the years between 1950 and 1970. I have not put in a ref for the 1970 Current Slang citation as I don't have a volume and page and have not seen the journal. It is reported in the American Heritage Dictionary etymology for "nerd", though. I will complete the ref as possible. I've been working on the etymology of the nerd for more than 12 years and only have the handful of citations that I've added to the article, so progress may be slow. -- Brons 16:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

OK. I've put references in for all of the 1950-1971 appearances of "nerd" or "nurd" in print that I am aware of, and that brings us to one of the clearest remaining issues of original research that exists in the history section: theories that derive from my web site [1], specifically the highly speculative "NE R&D labs" theory, which I neither originated nor originally added to this page. Once someone else had added it, I corrected and toned it down, though. It is one of two speculative origins that first appeared on my page, both contributed by readers and not invented by me. The second is a report that Philip K. Dick claims to have coined the term. I have added that one so that the two are treated similarly, and to give us a base text to correct.

The question is, am I a "reliable source"? I will not claim to be. I have been cited in print by both Entertainment Weekly and the Boston Globe as an expert on the the origin of the term, and my page on the subject has been on the Web for almost twelve years. But I am absolutely an amateur. I make no claim to being a professional historian or etymologist, and my work has never been peer reviewed or professionally edited and fact checked. Both the NERD labs and Phil Dick claims came to me as e-mails. The NERD Labs one is geographically interesting in that both of the first two print instances of the term are from quite close by. But they are speculative. As, by the way, is the "Mortimer Snerd" origin, with which I have had nothing to do.

So, I put it to you, especially those who have been wikipedians longer and more seriously than I, should we remove one or both claimed origins? If they are kept, should they (as I have with the Philip K Dick claim) have references that point to my web page? Without such references, they are unsubstantiated claims, as well as speculative. With the references, they are interesting possible origins, but as I have done major editing on the History section of the article, links to my site may be seen as self-serving.

I am entirely content to see either or both removed, kept, ref'd to my site or whatever the general will is. I remain something of a novice to Wikipedia, and make no claim as to fully understanding its rules, practices or guidelines. I welcome and seek guidance. --Brons 06:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is a quagmire

I agree...this article is almost totally made up it seems. ESPECIALLY the bit about the personality types, and about the rise of "nerd pride". Statements that make up the bulk of this article are at best ambiguous and at worst completely fallacious and misleading. This article needs SERIOUS attention, pruning, and cites.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 03:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I just pruned the article. Please make any suggestions or restore anything that you can find a reference for (although I doubt the likeliness of this since Nerd is such a un-scientific term).--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 03:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I've been concentrating on cleaning up and documenting the section on the history of the word, which is the only area that I have actually researched, but a lot of the claims in the other sections bothered me. Glad to see the article shortened and punched up. --Brons 03:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Nerd/geek

Does "nerd" or "geek" have more negative connotations? In my opinion, this is highly debatable. We need some citations here, especially for pieces of information like the East Coast/West Coast division that seem to be little but original research.

Also, the nerd/geek section is often confusing:

The lines between geek and nerd are often thin and ill-defined, however a general consensus is that a "geek" is a person who obsesises in one area or another, whereas a "nerd" is a highly intelligent person who is very scholarly and does well in many domains such as math, science, computing, etc. Nerds are more associated with obsessive knowledge. For example a Star Trek nerd (or Trekkie) is someone who could tell you extremely trivial details about Star Trek and may be likely to watch the show on a daily basis or go to Star Trek conventions.

So is a nerd or a geek more obsessive? This section merits extreme clarification if not removal altogether. Allispaul 09:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. That section is confusing, but do we need to do anything but check the geek page and compare it to the Nerd page on wikipedia to remedy that? Sporks.Are.Loverly 18:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)Sporks.Are.Loverly

In what way does the Star Trek fan differ from a football fan? Only in choosing interests according to taste rather than being raised to an interest to "fit in". Both go to conventions, have celebrity "heros", dress in costumes, etc. The stereotypically macho football fan can be just as obsessive about scores and plays (which to anyone else is boring). However, a Star Trek fan will not beat you up or sabotage your life for not being interested in Star Trek. So, which is more dysfunctional? People who choose to be what they are, or people who insist everyone pretend to fit in with their own narrow perceptions? Someone who flushes someone elses head down the toilet and beats them up for reading books is seriously disturbed. They cannot achieve, so they sabotage others.

The alleged "lack of social skills" is often a characteristic of the people surrounding them: if you have an IQ of 160, you can be as social as you like, but everyone around you will still be like children in comparison. Someday, labelling someone as "nerd" or "loner" or "geek", etc, will be seen as no different to labelling someone as "nigger", "wog" or "gook". The root cause is very similar and I think a strong case can be made for regarding people who use such terms in the same light.

Merging Nerd and Geek?

I would like to suggest a merge of the Nerd and Geek articles, since most people use them interchangeably. --Devnevyn 17:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Nerd and Geek should not be merged. They are not completely interchangeable. For the most part, geek is used to refer to someone who is knowledgeable in the technology field, and nerd is used to refer to someone who is "book smart". Geek could also be used for someone who is really into something. Like Band Geek, or Game Geek.

I have always thought that the whole "geek vs nerd" comparison in this article as well as the "authoritative" claims on the nuances of the various terms was nothing more than personal opinion and didn't have a lot of business here. It's pretty clear that many people who have been called geeks or nerds or who have embraced one or both of the terms have a lot of emotion involved in their commitment to their understanding of the terms, but it is far from clear that they really agree on the meanings (note the discussion in the next Talk section).

I'm guilty of such bias myself. I can't abide the term "geek", as I had a some decidedly negative interactions with carnies, lo those many decades ago and, their usage of the term overshadows the more positive popular modern usages in my mind. I've therefore tried to bring only the most well documented information here from my own web site. Given my bias agains "geek", my opinions on all of this "geek vs nerd" stuff is suspect, but I figure it's worth putting my 2 cents in in the talk page. --Brons 17:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

• Another note on "Nerd vs. Geek": Nerds lack nearly all basic social skills except for the ability to talk incoherently about some obscure science topic. Geeks, on the other hand, have the ability to carry on a conversation like most non-nerd/geek people. If you were to release both a nerd and a geek into the wild, the nerd would seek out the other nerds already present, while the geek would mingle with the non-nerd/geek people for a while, possibly a few hours. Nerds are generally lower on the social totem pole than geeks are, you might say. So geek and nerd cannot be used interchangably, similar to how you really cannot interchange the words swan and duck even though the two seem very similar.

I agree that Nerds and Geeks aren't the same, and have my own personal opinions, but is there ANY AUTHORITATIVE info on all these claims that are being thrown out here? We can't all just chip in what we think sounds right, thats OR people. This is suppost to be an encyclopedia and articles like this are undermining that goal.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 23:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Nerds and geeks are not the same, but in my social circle (mostly self proclaimed nerds) geeks are the ones with few social skills. It is all a matter of opinion. We see geeks as being more like computer science people, the the people who could be classified as 'treckies', etc. Nerds are smart, usually mathematically inclined, but when someone else is asked to pick them out of a crowd they can't. My best friend and I are both engineering majors, but when asking others to guess our major, most pick education or business. The two articles should not be combined, and I doubt you will get any sort of agreement on what makes a nerd vs. a geek.

Try substituting the words 'nerd' and 'geek' in the "Another note on 'Nerd vs. Geek'" paragraph with 'nigger' and 'gook': it reveals a lot about the attitudes behind the concepts.

This article would be more balance if it contained some discussion on the social problems surrounding these abuses: bullying and the negative effects it has on development, for example.

Nerds/Nuts/Nertz

Re: the Jean Harlowe line referenced -- I think you'll find that the character is saying "Nertz!", which was a polite way to say "Nuts!/Nuts to that!" This line should probably be removed, methinks. Ihnatko 01:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I suspect you are correct. I was going to check the DVD before recommending this myself. Just to be sure. Have you checked it directly? --Brons 19:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The Misogynist Original Research

They may also do so as a statement of non-conformity or as a desire to be seen as eccentric. Even if they meet the standards requiring intelligence, many of them do not fit the traditional definition that includes some degree of social ineptitude or alienation. They may profess to grok (the understanding or use of the term often being associated with "geeks" or "nerds") the struggles of traditional nerds even if only as a form of lip service. Given the traditional gender differences, female nerds tend to be more often self-styled than pejoratively labelled. Also, women are far less likely than men to experience peer alienation due to nerdy interests or eccentricities in general. -- Given traditional gender differences, being a girl with an interest in math, science or technology is very alienating indeed. ~ 24.168.57.47 01:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• Don't get so bent outta shape. Maybe they were simply trying to say that women can get away with a lot more offbeat behavior without being labelled nerd, dork, or spaz. Believe it or not, the standards for normal behavior are far stricter for men than they are for women. This is generally assuming the man is straight. If not, that's another story....206.192.18.14 20:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Amisha & Jill?

WTF is that? And what does N.E.R.D. supposedly stand for? If it's not explained in a coherent manner I'm going to remove the line. 68.166.69.228 06:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

This was vandalism of Feb 15 by 74.101.132.29. The original read "Northern Electric Research and Development". This origin is admittedly of questionable providence as it is second-hand original research suggested by a reader of my History of the Nerd web page. It's a rather cute suggestion but is just as much pure speculation as the "Mortimer Snerd" hypothesis. Neither has any sort of documentation. Snerd is a bit older and more often repeated than the N.E.R&D labs, suggestion I regard both as folk etymology. The RPI Drunk/knurd likewise is completely lacking in documentation, but has the virtue of being very strongly believed by RPI graduates and a small subset of MIT graduates. Personally, I don't object to the inclusion of any of these, but I understand folk who do. -- Brons 16:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't beleve a Nerd can be a sienctist eh? 81.132.69.34 18:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

N Protected edit declined. I can't tell what edit exactly is being requested. Sandstein 08:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

"Weakling"/"wimp" really relevent?

I'm not at all convinced that the Charles Atlas "97 pound weakling" story is really applicable. First of all, while "wimp" is slang "weakling" really isn't. Secondly, the original meaning of "nerd" was "square", a dull person, which is not the same as "wimp" or "weakling". The "Made a Man out of Mac" cartoon does illustrate the jock/bully vs wimp/nerd/geek/outcast tension, but doesn't specifically relate to the meaning or usage of nerd.

As someone who has been pushing the notion of nerd pride on the net for better than a dozen years, and someone who read roughly a zillion comic books with the Charles Atlas ad on the back cover, I can understand how this entry attracts a lot of personal identification, but I'm just not sure that we need to bring in the 97 pound weakling and all the elaborate geek vs nerd detailed comparisons. (Or even the whole personality classifications thing, but that's a whole nother kettle of fish.)

Anyone object to losing the "wimp/weakling" section?

--Brons 18:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

While wimps are not necessarily nerds, nerds are traditionally thought to be wimpy, at least if you define a wimp as someone physically inept. Of course, a wimp can also be defined as someone weak-willed, and nerds can be strong-willed. In any case, we need to keep in mind that these are stereotypes that do not necessarily correspond with reality. In the real world, a nerd may in fact be physically imposing (think Stephen King). Still, nerdiness and wimpiness tend to be related and strongly overlapping qualities. marbeh raglaim 21:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the weakling/wimp section back on March 11, having heard no objections. --Brons 17:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Characteristics

The "characteristics" section is especially weak.

The Meyers-Briggs inventory is a controversial measure and the claim of association of Meyer's Briggs types with nerd-like traits is unsourced and otherwise unconvincing, and I suggest that paragraph be removed if someone doesn't add some sources soon.

I've added a section on the association between the nerd stereotype and autistic spectrum traits, which is backed up by at least some solid research.

Schomerus 07:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The fellow in Napolean Dynamite seemed borderline autistic or aspy. And I have met nerds who do not come out as NT on the Myers-Briggs scale. marbeh raglaim 21:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate photos

Time to stop using this page as a place to publish photos of your friends, on the pretext that they are "nerds"! I strongly suspect that all the photographs here are in fact private jokes about (unsuspecting?) individuals. Whether or not the person portrayed has given his/her consent, however, it looks very like an inappropriate use of personal images. I'd delete the lot of them, and go looking for something like a cartoon (or maybe a public-domain image such as a publicity shot from a film with a "nerdish" character) to illustrate the stereotype. Is there even a case for banning all photos of private individuals on such a page as this? Snalwibma 09:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

How about the "Image:Nerd.jpg" that is used on the Robert Carradine page? It matches the classic stereotype of a nerd, and helped shape the image ever since the movie came out. Carradine worked very hard at presenting the physical archetype. The argument against it is that the article is not specifically about Carradine's portrayal, but we do cover it already in the body of the article and as I have been working my way through the history section chronologically adding references and citations, I was planning on including a "Revenge of the Nerd" along with the mention of "Happy Days" as they both contributed to the usage of the term. --Brons 13:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

As noone has put an objection, I proceed to put the image Nerd.jpg that is used on the Robert Carradine page. WikiSky 01:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm almost certain that this does not qualify for fair use. -Chunky Rice 02:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Plase make your args, so we can get a image for this article, since March 2007, Brons ask the question and nobady answered. I would be thankful if you suggest another image. WikiSky 03:00, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no suggestion as to what image would be appropriate. I can only say that this image could only be justified as fair use if used to discuss the character or the film that the character appeared in. See WP:NFC for the guideline regarding non-free images. -Chunky Rice 04:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess it is time for me to get off the stick and add a bit of discussion of the contribution of "Revenge of the Nerds", Carradine's portrayal of Lewis Skolnik, and the Fonz's use of the term "nerd" to the popular image of the nerd. I've been slow because I've been trying to give references to my contributions to teh History section and silly things like my job and family keep getting in the way of doing proper reference checking. Sigh.

Also, since the original poster of the image did not give a rationale, I added one to the image. Of course, I can only speak in general about the source and history of the picture and since I haven't see one of the actual physical photos in a decade or two, I can't prove any of what I said, but at least I provided grist for the discussion mill. -- Brons 16:20, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

What I don't understand is this, in the "Characteristics" section explains:
The stereotypical nerd is intelligent but socially and physically awkward. In film and television depictions, nerds are disproportionately male and white with glasses and braces. [13][14] However, after the introduction of the Steve Urkel character, nerds have been seen in all races and colors, especially, in recent years as a recurring young Asian male stereotype. They typically appear either to lack confidence or to be indifferent or oblivious to the negative perceptions held of them by others, with the result that they become frequent objects of scorn, ridicule, bullying, and social isolation. They show a pronounced interest in subjects which others tend to find dull or complex and difficult to comprehend, especially topics related to science, disambiguation, mathematics and technology.
This description is (almost) exactly what the picture shows. So, why don't put it on?. If the picture does NOT describes corretly SO the "Characteristics" section must be changed or ereased! Understand my point? . Well, you could say "It says: "In fim and television..."", ok, but then a note must be added , explaining that this media nerd's descriptions isn't correct or not apply to reality.
So.. the picture isn't ok -> then char seccion not correct
or if ok then a note must be added.
What do you think?WikiSky 18:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

On the whole, I believe that Carradine's portrayal of Skolnick does a good job of capturing the stereotype of the time, and establishes it for the next few decades. It is, in a word, iconic. But arguing that here isn't of much use. The propriety of the picture, per se, is being challenge in its [own entry], and that's where it has to be defended.

It was initially challenged as having no fair use rationale, which was clearly a mistake on the part of whoever initially contributed it. I have therefore supplied such a rationale. It is now being challenged because its "fair use appears to illustrate a subject for which a free image could reasonably be found or created" and it will therefore be deleted Thursday, July 19, 2007.

The arguments against its inclusion are reasonable. The image is copyrighted and the legal definition of "fair use" is not precise. The Wikipedia policy is somewhat clearer, and quite reasonable. Policy requires that fair use of copyrighted images be exercised only when there is no free alternative. I have been making the necessary arguments in what I believe are the required manner, but have never gotten involved in this sort of debate before, and am not entirely up on all of the details. Anyone who feels that there are legitimate reasons for using this picture should get involved in the procedure over in the image's own entry, especially if they believe they understand the procedures better than I. --Brons 17:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The official decision on the Skolnik image is that it is not replaceable, and so is to be kept, so I have added it back in! Maybe we can now put the whole question of inappropriate images to rest! --Brons 18:05, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I lol'd at noone. After all, noone cares :D Anyways, if you guys want to post pics of nerds as inside jokes, just go to encyclopediadramatica, where they're more than welcome as long as they're lulzy enough. Sandwiches99 03:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Arrrrg!!! After all of this someone has put a picture he claims is of himself in in addition to the Carradine. After all we've gone through, I am really tempted to remove it. The contributor doesn't have a user page. How exactly, do we know that it is a self portrait and so on and so on... --Brons 04:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

External link

The external link to NerdPoint isn't working. Maybe someone should take it out. If a nerd discussion forum is needed, you might want to add nerdcouncil.com 71.224.165.3 20:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Bucholtz citation

I've made a small edit to the reference to Bucholtz's "hyperwhite" contention, but left it in place. I am not convinced, however, that it was inserted at the ideal point in the article. At present, it is in the section on "Characteristics" and Bucholtz's work is more of an interpretation of the characteristics, their origin and meaning. As such I could see it going in a section with the Asperger Syndrome theory or even the contemporary pride, as both talk about the intent of contemporary nerds.

Or given the writers and academics who have spent time analyzing nerds and nerdiness, maybe a new section on the the scholarly study of nerds? Thoughts? --Brons 18:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Aspergers vs. Nerdiness... A controversial diagnosis, a risky comparison

The reference to Asperger's syndrome, (which itself is still very controversial among Psychiatrists) and comparing it to nerdiness is a dangerous idea. Imagine... If nerdiness becomes a diagnosable medical condition, every "nerd" in the world would need a prescription for medication. What a boon for drug companies! And potentially, what a risk to humanity.

A personality trait is not a medical condition. I know this article is light-hearted, but it Wikipedia is an important bank of human knowledge and understanding. This comparison frightens me, and it isn't accurate. At best, nerdiness may be partly symptomatic of the condition, but it does NOT represent a complete list of symptoms necessary for diagnosis. (And if I'm wrong, and nerdiness alone warrants a diagnosis and medication, humanity is in serious trouble... I'm not entirely against psychoactive drugs, but we don't need the entire staff of NASA on them.)

I feel that *if* the comparison of nerdiness with Asperger's should exist at all, it would belongs in the Asperger's article, used only as one of many a characteristics defining the condition.

You are presuming way too much here. The section simply is comparing Aspergers with colloquial properties of being a nerd, and drawing out some common characteristics (which there are many, surely you wouldn't deny). I don't think it is explicitly saying that being a nerd is necessarily caused by a condition, that it is some type of "disorder", or any other type of Brave New World scenarios you described. These are all inferences that the intelligent reader can make on their own, the article is just drawing a comparison, which I believe is relevant. Feel free to ask for a consensus.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 02:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like textbook original research to me. Unless a compelling argument is made to keep the material OR references added which explicitly link these two disparate topics, the material must be removed. --ElKevbo 03:14, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

How is it OR? OR would be stating that being a Nerd is caused by Asperger's, and then listing reasons and consequences. That section is just stating the fact that Mathematicians, Physicists and Computer Scientists have very high AQ scores, indicating Autistic-like thinking, which is NOT OR but actual research conducted by the referenced authors (Baron Cohen, et al). All the section puts in is essentially the word "nerd", which these types of professions would surely qualify (the entire article is colloquial anyway). The only reason those stated authors didn't put in the word "nerd" is because it is an unscientific, pejorative term and they would have no reason to do so. Therefore, narrowing criterion for what is actual research to a scientist saying "this looks like properties of a nerd" is never going to happen, because a scientist would never say that.

They are not two "disparate" topics at all. In fact, Asperger's has been called the "Nerd Syndrome" by a article in WIRED (I believe). The entire paradigm of someone with Asperger's as extremely reminiscent of a stereotypical nerd, that's all the section is saying. Do you really need a published author saying this for it not to be OR?--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 00:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as establishing any kind of diagnosis, modern diagnostic criteria are quite emphatic that to be a "disorder", the trait in question has to lead to substantial personal distress and impairment in social and occupational adjustment. In fact, quite the reverse is true for Autistic spectrum traits: in moderation these are beneficial, at least in contemporary Western society where there is a high demand for scientists and engineers and other professions that require focused and systematic thought. Nowhere does the section claim that people exhibiting these traits suffer from a disorder. It merely points out that there is an interesting relationship between a social stereotype on the one hand, and a set of prevalent mutually associated traits on the other, which in turn have an interesting relationship with a recognized disorder. It's the same kind of association as between manic depressive illness and artistic creativity, or the heterozygote advantage in some Mendelian disorders: a beneficial trait is associated with an extreme variant which is considered a disorder, or which might be beneficial in one context and harmful in another. This is not a controversial idea. As a footnote, though, I think ideas should be added and deleted from Wikipedia entries according to their merit, not based on whether they are "dangerous", whatever that means. I find the censoring of "dangerous" ideas to be far more dangerous than any idea I can think it might be applied to. Schomerus 20:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, yes there's always the risk that knowledge is used for negative purposes. But that shouldn't scare away us objective smart guys (in my case a non AS-nerd) from reflecting what the world thinks about nerds. The representative wikipedian answer to this censoring risk should be that we NPOV-balance the text to all the time refer to who out there says what. If we can find a source criticising the belief in an alleged connection between nerdiness and asperger, then we should try to include such criticism in the article. Said: Rursus ☻ 11:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Protecting the page

Can this page be protected already? Thanks in advance.--Hypergeometric2F1(a,b,c,x) 00:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Fact Checking Carradine's Role

There's a request for a fact check on the claim (my claim) that "Carradine in particular worked very hard to embody the nerd stereotype and in so doing helped define it for many years to come." The claim come in two parts, one more defensible than the other. The first is that Carradine put a lot of work into getting the role just right. My source for this is a magazine article of 10-12 years ago, that I have long since lost and forgotten the details of. In it, Carradine described the effort they put into getting the role just right. There were two aspects that were mentioned. One was as a part of a pattern he has of doing things like gain or lose a lot of weight for a particular movie, and the other was the outing he and Edwards to ut the University of Arizona where they "field tested" their costumery by trying to pledge in character.

I can't find that article, but there is one at Lumino that contains a more recent interview that talks about some of the prep work including the real world pledging. Does anyone have a better citation on this?

The second part of the claim is that the portrayal of Skolnik helped define the image for years to come. As a nerd scholar, and you may take that in both senses, it is clear to me that it did, that the aspects of nerd stereotype that Carradine and Edwards focused on really established the iconic image for the next 2-plus decades. But citing me just really isn't good scholarship, at least on this point and not when I do it. So, does anyone know of any more reliable sources that will backup the claim, or should I just remove it as personal opinion and original research?

--Brons 20:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Take away the MMORPG section

Most would agree that its more of a gamer/geek thing to play MMORPGs, not a nerd. MMOs take away time from studying and scholarly like things. Star Trek and other fantasy things are fine, but MMOs eat your life, and, might I mention, are becoming more mainstream. Nerds would be as far away from mainstream as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koroshisama (talk • contribs) 03:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to add that I don't understand the correlation between "nerds" and overall fantasy/science-fiction. Are you saying all people playing Dungeons&Dragons, read Lord of the Rings or Isaac Asimov are "nerds"? Dungeons&Dragons furthermore is an extremely social game; nothing awkward about it --- Unregistered —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.47.135.188 (talk) 22:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Connotations of first sentence

The 'instead of engaging in social life' bit really makes me wonder who wrote this article. There's nothing wrong with pursuing intellectual and esoteric subjects and it certainly should not have a negative connotation of being something other than 'right'. Shit, parts of social life are actually rather dumb.

144.92.228.31 00:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

For my money, the problem is not in the first sentence, but in the elaborations of the latter half of the paragraph, to wit:

While nerd, dork, and geek share in passionate intellectual pursuits and social ineptitude, nerd has the added implication of being affable and amusing. A nerd is often excluded from physical activity, and is often considered a loner by peers.

The attempts to draw distinctions between "geek" and "nerd" have always been particularly fraught with difficulties, especially when put forth by those who regard themselves as one or the other and think that of them as positive terms. Self-identification seems to lead to advocacy rather than reportage.

One need not agree that engaging in a social life is more important or better than intellectual pursuits to report that the term was used as an insult, like "drip", "square" or "scurve" to describe someone who was dull and un interesting to the socially conscious folk who coined it as an insult. The first sentence is accurate reportage, as I see it.

--Brons 00:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"ne'er do well"?

I've been researching this word for a decade and a half and never heard a suggestion that it was related to "ne'er do well". And to be honest, I don't really think it makes much sense. The meanings of the words really aren't at all close, at least in the 1950's usage.

Can anyone produce any evidence for this one? Or is it merely the theory of the person who added it to the page?

--Brons 00:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed it. I still cannot find any source for this, never heard the claim before, and no one has supplied a source since the September fact check request or my note here. Feel free to restore it with sourcing --Brons (talk) 16:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Pride day in Spain

This involves again the geek vs. nerd debate, but May 25th is about pride in being the kind of person whose hobbies are comic books, science fiction, heroic fantasy and the like. It is implied that such a person may devote too mcuh time to pursuing such activities, but personal traits are not an explicit part of the profile. Does that fit in the nerd definiton, then? Some of us feel May 25th is rather Geek Pride Day. 80.31.25.72 15:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC) Sergi

Nerd v dork

The informal definition that I've heard floating around Sydney is: "a nerd is a socially awkward person who is intellectually gifted, a dork is not gifted." Now I could cite addresses for the various establishments licensed to sell alcohol where I've heard this, but I'm not sure that'd count as reliable enough. It doesn't settle geek v nerd either. I thought geek suggested computers more specifically, where nerd is the generic term. Alastair Haines 21:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's what Webster's says-

Nerd - an unstylish, unattractive, or socially inept person; especially : one slavishly devoted to intellectual or academic pursuits [2]

Dork - slang for Nerd also Jerk [3]

--BlindEagle^{talk~contribs} 21:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

That's certainly a more reliable source than my local thanks. ;) Alastair Haines 22:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Nerd vs Geek

What about a section that mentions the difference between nerds and geeks? --218.103.194.237 (talk) 01:14, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

There have been such sections in the past, but there is nothing other than a bunch of unsourced personal opinion that clearly defines these differences. It is hard enough to get a clear definition that is agreed upon and documentable. let alone contrast it. If you plan on trying to put the section back, be prepared to provide sources. I suggest trying it out here. --Brons (talk) 15:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Nerds are cleaner and better at social interaction. A geek may have a very narrow intellectual interest, for instance in science fictiopn or computers. That's how it was in the 80s and 90s. Now a geek is just an aficionado of anything, though compouter geeks are the most named type. Nerds have come a long way though. The word nerd isn't even necessarily an insult anymore, and neither is geek. Dorks and dweebs however have made no such recovery. CRATYLUS22

Offensive

The phrase "nerd" is an offensive term to Wikipedia users who are shown to be nerds. I am shown to be one which is why I deleted this page earlier. It's offensive and cruel. If you have a heart or mind, you shouldn't be putting offensive terms on this page. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE AN IDIOT, I SUGGEST THAT YOU DON'T PLAN FUTURE ATTEMPTS FOR OFFENSIVE TERMS!!!!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Deathlive2 at 16:38 on 5 January 2008. (attribution added by Brons (talk) 18:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC))

I don't find the word "nerd" offensive at all. I've been called that since grade school (and I was one back then as well). Even if you do think that it is offensive, that doesn't matter, because Wikipedia isn't censored. Not to mention that we are mostly nerds. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 17:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Eehh, actually I feel like a nerd, but nobody have called me that. May I be a nerd anyway, please? Said: Rursus ☻ 11:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I was reading this from a link from the "Bully" game and I just wanted to put some input in though i'm not an actual user of Wikipedia per se, even though it is just personal opinion from my area of the world which is not America.

I am generally the kind of person who is slightly a "geek" not a nerd from the definition on this page as I am social but I am intrested in education, role-playing, getting good grades and computers rather then social domination.

In fact I think the main reason i'm not really called a nerd/geek is that the person who I talk to most is one of the schoolest people in the grade...well in my homegroup at least, I'm mainly respected for being smart and people ask me for advice. There is not so much of a "nerd" hating culture here but I have several friends who fit it exactly and who are nice people if you get to know them but the only reason I know one of them is that I have known him since grade 2 a long long time ago, the others were mainly his friends and he introidcued them to me...

Nerd is usually an insult but it does seem that more recent use is as a title or general statement rather then the olden uses of the word.

Hope that helped in whatever minor ways! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.29.13.63 (talk) 11:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Proud to be a Nerd

I don't see "nerd" as an offending term. Aren't "nerds" the ones who made this country's (U.S.) computers? If someone calls you a nerd, carry that title proudly! The term "nerd" should be respected! All "nerds" should be respected! Actually everyone should be respected. But you get my point. I hope.--Wikimichael22 (talk) 17:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)Wikimichael22

One of my favorite songs is "White and Nerdy" my "Weird" Al Yankovic.--Wikimichael22 (talk) 17:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)Wikimichael22

More to Add

See also: Robert Lanham, author of 'The Hipster Handbook' -- see chapter on "The Loner" -- a.k.a "The Garofalo" in Playboy -- as in Janeane Garofalo -- & 'Food Court Druids, Cherohonkees & Other Creatures Unique to the Republic') —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.22.193 (talk) 00:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Nerdfighters.

I think a valuable addition to this article would be a short section about the new positive use of the word 'nerd'. After John and Hank Green's video project Brotherhood 2.0, the term 'nerdfighter' has become a word of praise. I thought I should discuss this first, but I really think it is needed here. Polymath618 (talk) 00:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Wall Street Journal article

The Wall Street Journal has an article by Benjamin Nugent that mentions this article, and provides some criticism. JACOPLANE • 2008-05-22 20:24

American Scientist link has changed

American Scientist "The Nerds have Won"

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/the-nerds-have-won