Talk:Creatio ex nihilo

The following paragraph from this section is questionable gobbledygook. An authoritative reference should be provided, or the paragraph should be deleted.

"Additional support for this belief is that something cannot arise from nothing; this is a contradiction. Therefore there must always have been something. But it is scientifically impossible for matter to always have existed. What is more, matter is contingent, that is it is not logically impossible for it not to exist, and nothing else depends on it. So there must have been a Creator who is not contingent and not composed of matter: this Being is God."

Sschale (talk) 08:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't realise that "quotes from the bible" counted as arguments in favour of ex nihilo. The kalam or first cause arguments are actual arguments, but I've never heard the "its written down in a book" argument before. Perhaps someone needs to make seperate sections: one for actual arguments, and another for passages in the bible which support the ex nihilo interpretation of the bible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.33.195 (talk) 15:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed from article pending verification

An opinion held by some Orthodox Jewish scholars is that the Book of Genesis contains a mystical interaction between God and all of creation. A faSmall Textmiliar name of God for Christians, "alpha and omega", comes from the idea of God being the cause of all creation. The Hebrew equivalent of the letter "alpha" is "aleph", both letters being the equivalent to the letter 'A'. Therefore, since God alone represents the letter 'A', the next letter in the alphabet, 'B', or "bet" obviously is situated after the letter 'A'. Because then, the Torah begins with the letter 'B', in the word "bereshit" - or, in the beginning - some have posited the idea that we can conclude that God existed before the Torah, but that the Torah was the next thing to exist in the universe, and that this relationship between God and the Torah supports the theory of ex nihilo, due to the fact that the letter 'A' is situated before the letter 'B' in the alphabet.

• I don't know where this nonsense came from, so for reasons of unverifiability, I've moved it to the talk page. Anyone who can cite and make sense of the above passage can reinsert it at their will. —№tǒŖïøŭş4lĭfė ♫♪ 01:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

No but I can say that modern Hebrew is based on Koine Greek. That of course means that the Old Testament was not written in modern Hebrew. LoveMonkey 12:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Removed from article pending rewrite, citation, proof of notability etc. etc.

"Social architecture There is a process by which one creates a social structures by providing a space. So for example you can rent a space in a commercial district in a town and simply leave it open for others to provide the inspiration for creating something in it. The vacuum of the space attracts something to manifest in it. This process is also given the name Edwarding after Matthew Edwards who created Circlecenter (circlecenter.com) based on this principle.

There is a yang form of social architecture where you prescribe and design more of what you want to see. There is a yin form of social architecture where you allow more of the structure to be built by the participants. Open space technology and world cafe are more yin forms. Edwarding is a relatively yin form of social architecture."

This may make sense to whoever wrote it, but to me it just seems like a rant from an acid fiend that is thinking on a different wavelength to the average Wikipedia reader. If it is ok can we see some context please? And proof of why this is not just some cult's pseudo-philosophy would be nice. Howboutpete 22:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

new theory with a myspace blog

I found an arguement against Ex Nihilo on a myspace blog but i don't want to post it without giving the guy any credit, and wikipedia isn't letting me source the blog. Is there anyway to work around this? ProductofSociety

Strange passage

I removed this passage from the article.

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- For an examination of how the doctrine arose originally in Gnosticism and then was adopted by early Church leaders to shore up doctrines of divine determinism, see Gerhard May, Creatio Ex Nihilo: The Doctrine of ‘Creation out of Nothing’ in Early Thought. trans. A. S. (Worrall. Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1994).

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This passage seems to miss the point of the book (which is very effectively refuted by this review [1]). The books point was that ex nihilio was a second century invention. As the review states.

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"But it seems that we have here sufficient references to creation out of nothing to call into question the assertion that this doctrine was nothing but a late second-century phenomenon." And again..

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"We noted earlier that Professor May does not think that the text of the Bible demands belief in creation ex nihilo (p. 24). Unfor-tunately, he does little to defend this claim. While he makes passing reference to certain biblical passages that seem to hint at the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo, he does not seriously interact with them. He focuses on patristic study (as his subtitle indicates) rather than on biblical exegesis. This turns out to be a weakness for May because, if properly done, sound biblical exegesis refutes the notion that creation out of nothing is a mere theological invention. For instance, Rom 4:17 (where God is said to call into being things that are not) and Heb 11:3 (where the visible world is not created from anything observable) are passages which May simply writes off as fitting in with other statements of hellenistic Judaism - statements that seem to affirm absolute creation out of nothing but are actually only asserting belief in world-formation."

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And most importantlyIt appears the books message is that Gnosticism did not teach or believe or create the ex nihilio concept, but prompted Christians to take the position to counter what was gnostic.
Indeed, May gives the false impression that creatio ex nihilo was nothing more than the invention of well-meaning Christian theologians who were trying to defend what they believed to be the biblical notions of God's absolute sovereignty, freedom, and omnipotence in the face of heretical gnostic doctrines.

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This is a farcry from Christianity adopting from Gnosticism a gnostic doctrine. LoveMonkey 13:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Question regarding use of the phrase "attained a highly developed"

The second paragraph begins with: "A number of philosophers in ancient times attained a highly developed concept of God as the supreme ruler of the world, but they failed to develop the concept of God as the absolute cause of all finite existence."

It seems to me that considering concepts of God or gods in terms of higher or lesser development could be conceived as value-laden. Both "development" and "attainment" tend to imply a level of achievement. Neither the concept of ex nihilo nor the history of the term calls for phrasing in terms of achievement, development, etc. Indeed, such phrasing seems to violate the objectivity of Wikipedia. I would suggest removing this from the article. Alternatively, I would suggest that if there is a historical record of value judgement being placed on this concept, then it be recognized, and recognized as such (opinion). Chuckhumming 21:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about, It might be that you do not understand what the sentence means? did you notice the comma that separates the two different parts. The first part talks about their ideas about God, while the second part goes on to say that in those complex and well reasoned ideas for God they had not developed the concept of ex nihilo creation.

Maybe it would be more clear if it said "developed a sophisticated and complex concept of God" since they were highly rational models with ideas that are very often still used to this day when talking about God, while religious models are based on revelation with an admixture of rational arguments about the nature of God. It might help to read the reference given. Hardyplants 09:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

What makes it more sophisticated and complex? What is its connection to "rationality"? The fact that this concept was used in Western philosophy? 69.232.198.53 04:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"more" sophisticated than what? and what concept?

The connection to "rationality" is that the ideas were based on logical arguments. Philosophical arguments for God are generally different than religious arguments about God. The point is that ancient philosophers had gone over all types of arguments about the nature of God and gods and His/their relation to the physical world but they did not develop ex nihilo creation. Hardyplants 06:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Pre-biblical theories of ex nihilio

I take issue with this paragraph:

A number of philosophers in ancient times attained a highly developed concept of God as the supreme ruler of the world, but did not develop a concept of God as the absolute cause of all finite existence. Before the biblical idea of creation, myths envisioned the world as being preexisting matter acted upon by a god or gods that reworked this material into the present world. Only in the Bible and the religious thought that developed out of its world-view do we see the formulation of ex nihilo creation.

The source, the Catholic Encyclopedia, supports this by stating:

Though some of the pagan philosophers attained to a relatively high conception of God as the supreme ruler of the world, they seem never to have drawn the next logical [logical?] inference of His being the absolute cause of all finite existence. ... puerile story of the cosmogony corrupted by polytheistic myths. [vs. the mature story?] .... Paganism and the Oriental heresies had waned.

However, "ex nihilo" isn't restricted to the volitional activity of a God. Some have argued (e.g., Eric Voegelin) that Hesiod's Chaos in Theogony was nothingness from which everything emerged by means of the cosmic force "eros". Pherecydes of Syros countered Heriod by asserting that the gods always existed. Nor is there unanimous agreement that the Genesis account has to be interpreted as "ex nihilo". Plato's rational creative force of the demiurge should be explored also. I believe that a) the pre-Socratic and Socratic arguments need to be included, b) the lede should be modified to be more expansive and c) less emphasis on one theological argument (Catholic) should be used in the lede. Thoughts? ∴ Therefore | talk 18:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

See http://books.google.com/books?id=JeXteXhnJWkC&pg=PA492&lpg=PA492&dq=theogony+and+christianity&source=web&ots=TmjKpdhqmI&sig=iRnUdz1rAlLfSkzu3H1ttjlvL3E#PPA493,M1

As a possible starting place. In some of the Greek concepts the Gods have a beginning, others have prefect order that gives rise to chaos that produce the world and the things in it. It might be useful to present the distinctions between the Christian and Pagan concepts in relation to cosmology. Hardyplants (talk) 05:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

At the end of the "Judeo-Christian views" section, there is an uncited statement that it is scientifically impossible for matter to exist forever. I'm wondering if this could either be elaborated on a bit or removed entirely, because I'm not entirely sure what scientific theory or principle this is referring to.