Talk:Battle of Tskhinvali

Request for expansion

Please expand. Made a very "bare bones" article. Sparten (talk) 05:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to try to add information from the other article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.12.186 (talk) 06:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Request for correction by the native speakers of English!

Please keep correcting the article written mostly by non-native speakers, including the punctuation!! It's important to eliminate grammar and stylistic errors that make the article look untidy!!

The article demands semi-protection - at least to save results of language correction.--195.98.173.10 (talk) 06:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Please don't, I'm the main editor, and I'm not logged on, and I don't have time for it at the moment Been typing all night long.

Help expanding the stubs needed!

Can someone with an account start an article for the OSInform News Agency? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.200.215.40 (talk) 14:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Even if you can't add any specific information, just help expanding the names of agencies and spokesmen. Don't leave the dead red.

Request for Pictures!

We have to add some pictures now!! Someone please help with this! Pictures showing Tshinvali before and after the battle to demonstrate that it was a city completely destroyed by shelling are escpecially welcome. But don't just add blood and gore, we've all had enough of this already. If you can't find the uncopyrighted ones, just skrew the copyright. No one's going to sue anyone, that's a world issue, that's way too important.

Timeline

The division of the time line into "Timeline before Russian Army interfered" and "Timeline of Georgia - Russia phase of battle" seems artificial. Russian peacekeepers have been part of the battle from the very beginning. Now, where should that dividing line be drawn? Is it when Russian tanks crossed the border? Or is when Russian jets crossed the border? ...Can we please get rid of this confusing break? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speaking fish (talk • contribs) 21:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

IMHO such parts should be done. The dividing moment of the battle - actions of russian tanks and artillery from the evening August, 8 (real fighting contacts between Georgian and Russian regular troops) till the end. Before that moment it was fighting between georgians (the restoration of constitutional order in the region - Georgia officials' point of view; or the georgian Genocide of the Ossetians - Ossetians' point of view). After that moment - it is the war between Unated Nations states. --195.98.173.10 (talk) 23:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is not. Because the first fire contact between Georgian regular army and Russian peacekeepers took place between 7th and 8th of August Vadimkaa (talk) 22:50 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Map

Please give a legend for the map. So you can tell disposition of forces. Sparten (talk) 11:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Of the two current maps, the one captioned "A map of the Caucasus showing the forces disposition before the battle of Tskhinvali." is just silly--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 05:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Peace vs. peace

So, georgian peacekeepers are fighting russian peacekeepers?Slipzen (talk) 12:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, it seems so. Russian President Medvedev said it on the press-conference. He said that Russian peacekeepers were asked to get away from their positions when Georgian attack begun, and when they refused both Georgian peacekeepers and Georgian regular military forces opened fire. Vadimkaa (talk) 22:40 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle is over

In the main article about this 2008 conflict it sais Russians have taken over the capitan and also I hear that on the news. Kermanshahi (talk) 12:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• I am now hearing via al Jazeera that, after the failure of the last major assault, Georgian forces have fallen back from Tskhinvali completely. It would appear the battle has ended in a Russian and South Ossetian victory. 71.227.162.75 (talk) 08:23, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Tere is only the winner of this war - the United States of America. How long will they pit people, nations, neighbours to USA profit?!!! Damned! --195.98.173.10 (talk) 10:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Timeline

Please, don't citate on russian mass-media, and let's make timline without qoutes firstly, then will chek up the facts --Niggle (talk) 14:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

To all editors! There are a lot of mistakes depends on timezone. According to the information on Tbilisi page, Georgia timezone is UTC+4 at winter, and UTC+5 at summer (DST). So Georgia has 1 hour difference to Moscow time (Moscow: UTC+3 winter; UTC+4 summer). It means, that by Tskhinvali local time was the Friday (August, 8) when Georgia started heavy shelling of the city. This information demands to be checked up and corrected in the article!!! --Niggle (talk) 19:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

So such statement IMHO is incorrect: "23:30 Georgian troops started bombardment of Tskhinvali using heavy artillery (howitzers), 122 mm multiple-launch rocket systems "Grad", and large-caliber mortars)[17][18]". If you based on Moscow media - they use Moscow timezone. Georgian and Ossetian - their own? We exectly don't know the same minutes, but it was between 00:00 and 01:00 at local georgian time on August, 8 (it means 23:00 till 00:00 local moscow time on August, 7). --195.98.173.10 (talk) 20:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

South Ossetia uses Moscow timezone. But I agree that exact minutes in time notations give a false sense of precision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speaking fish (talk • contribs) 21:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

After Russian Army interfered, both sides use similar weapons - T72 in different modifications, but nobody T80. IMHO, it would be better without any pictures (at list right now). --Niggle (talk) 15:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Exact time of Russian tanks interference

Our tanks couldn't entered Tskhinvali 12:14 local time - they was in Russia.

• 12:14 Russian tanks entered Tskhinvali, reported first by Russian media and later by CNN.

Such statment is wrong - it probably mistake with timzone (ordinar local in Georgia - UTC +4; summer local time there - UTC +5 and UTC). --Niggle (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Rename: Battle for Tskhinvali

The conflict is a struggle to capture the city. Tskhinvali isn't a random battlefield. I propose we rename this article Battle for Tskhinvali. Am I right? - SSJ ☎ 21:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Bold move. - SSJ ☎ 21:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

nonsense. all urban battle articles have Battle of... Like Battle of Berlin or Battle of N'Djamena --TheFEARgod (Ч) 23:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

You can use "for" and "of" for both cases but it's best to leave it alone.--66.229.12.186 (talk) 10:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Was vs. Is Fought

Since Russia has control of the city we should update the page.--66.229.12.186 (talk) 11:12, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Please do not update to the past tense because the war is still on, and we don't know what happens next.

Comment: Russian control of Tskinvali (at least before Aug 10) is disputed. See below "Concern about the Neutrality of Sources"

What happened

It seems to be that the following thing happened. Georgia is George Bush's personal protectorate. He put Saakashvili there. The Georgian people don't like Mr. S but can't do anything. Mr. S finally launched an attack on the capital of South Ossetia which is basically a Russian protectorate. The exact reason is unknown. Maybe Bush told him to, maybe he did it on his own. The attack indeed seems to be genocidal and against the civilians, because the city was attacked at night on the eve of the Olympics, when many people were sleeping or preparing to watch TV, and the nearby villages were attacked. And he shut down all Russian information channels, which points finger at him as an anti-media fighter, because no matter how much Russia is disliked in the west shutting down information channels is just kind of self-explanatory. So it looks like the plan was simply to erradicate the inhabitants of S. Ossetia by Blut und Eisen which is rather sparsely populated and backland area of the central Caucasus, and either kill them or drive them out of there. The initial onslaught killed at least 1500, whereas about 5000 more are hiding or dying in the basements of the destroyed houses. The Russian forces stood on guard at the border and quickly interfered several hours later which is just enough to get from the North Ossetia, because somehow they knew for weeks something was up, and the trouble was brewing. Now (August 10), Mr. S is calling his dogs off, because the city has been destroyed as much as they could destroy it, and the most important part of the operation is over. The Georgians are usually thought as kind by nature, the most good-natured people of Caucasus and historically friendly with Russia and other peoples, but this time they were bulldozed to engage by S.'s police at gunpoints, so it is not their fault. This seems to be the most reasobale version, presently.

As to history, it is difficult to assess whether South Osetia is or is not a historical Georgia's territory. South Ossetia was formed in the 1920s. It seems that Ossetians lived there for ages in spots, although it's true that their number was quickly increasing throughout the 20th century during the Soviet period. However, Georgians lived there too. At least, the Great Soviet Encyclopedia (1972) officially cites 66% of Ossetians, 28% of Georgians, whereas the 19th century polls for Tskinvali cite few or no Ossetians, and it was said to be populated mostly by Jews and Armenians (!). So there has always been comlex ethnical situation, and the population has probably alwasys been mixed, and changing for ages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.234.25.210 (talk) 16:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgians and Ossetians were mostly peasants so it's no wonder that Tskhinvali was populated mainly by Armenians and Jews at that time (Armenians formed a plurality even in Tbilisi then). Alæxis_¿question? 03:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Mercenaries Vs volunteers

Russia across Georgia of using Mercs but Russia has Volunteers from Cossacks ethic groups —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.12.186 (talk) 22:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• The huge difference between mercenaries and volunteers is that mercenaries fight for money while volunteers fight for the idea. Some Georgian POWs, by the way, could not even speak Georgian. (talk) 05:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, this article is crap

Needs to be REALLY cleanud-up or even rewritten almost totally. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 05:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Concern about the Neutrality of Sources

Two comments:

1. I wonder why this page is within projects S.OSetia (understandible) and Russia (not so much so), but not Georgia (that's totally outrageous). I mean is a peacekeeper (or if you ask us, Georgians - Invader, but never mind) more important than the country in which S.Osetia is located?

• Even BBC and CNN sources called 'Russian peacekeepers'. Just type "CNN Russian peacekeepers" in Google. Anyway, here Georgian troops called Georgian Army and not like S.Ossetains wanted to called them, as an example.

2. This is a major comment to almost all articles in Wikipedia. Russian sources seem to have announced that Russians have regained control of Tskinvali on the evening of August 8. various Russian sources report anywhere between this time, and evening of Aug 9.

I totally distrus the first time and am very sceptical to the second one. Anyhow (whatever my beliefs), This is not what Georgian forces have reported and at least "According to Russian Sources" should be added prior to any statements about the Tskinvali retake. And for the totally honest people, this is the chronology of (battle) events according to Georgian side:

night of Aug 08 - Georgia Takes (with very little resistance, from locals) 8 (this increased in the morning) villages around Tskinvali and to the north of it

morning of Aug 08 - Georgia takes most of tskinvali with all but one posts taken

afternoon of Aug 08 - 3:00 - 6:00 ceasefire is declared from Georgian side and a corridor opened to allow civilians come out.

Evening of Aug 08 - Complete control over Tskinvali is gained with no major events reported during the evening. Clashes reported North of Tskinvali, near the South of Town Java.

Aug 09 - Fighting is reported and Heavy attacks from North by Russian Forces, although The town stays in Georgian control.

Morning of Aug 10 - Heavy air attacks and a massive russian army causes Georgian army to regroup to the south of Tskinvali.

Afternoon of Aug 10 - First a ceasefire is declared by Georgian side, and then total withdrawal of forces from Tskinvali and the whole conflict region. Russian troops are reported not to allow some Georgian troops passage.

Morning of Aug 11 - (as I'm writing) Georgian side has withdrawn all the Army from the conflict region, although Russians are proceeding outside the Conflict region and attacking Georgian forces. Air bombardment of Georgia continues.

• You free to change this article. You may add an alternative chronology. The only need is official verifiable sources in the Internet. Georgian, if you want.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.147.224.22 (talk) 07:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia also says Georgian forces are still near the town and groups of Georgian commandos were sent to infiktrate it. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• Citation would be nice. The policy is quite simple: everything should be referred.

The lead Russian armoured battalion almost wiped-out in an ambush - embedded Russian journalist

Very heavy losses (most of vehicles lost), Russian 58th army commander wounded (which was officially confirmed) and 2 Russian journalists wounded.

http://mk.ru/blogs/MK/2008/08/10/society/365780/ --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)