Talk:Brazilian Portuguese

I think Portuguese people should not edit Brazilian Portuguese page because they do not respect our language, they consider our language usage incorrect and want to impose they colonial language on us, afresh. Please back off. Que pena amor, cai fora!!!

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êI believe this article is extremely biased and inaccurate. We should stick to describing the particularities of the dialect, rather than just saying that the French linguists are wrong and putting words in the mouth of all Brazilians. Just as there are different articles for the English language dialects (eg British English, Australian English), we could have different articles for Portuguese. Discussing whether Brazilian Portuguese should be considered a different language or not would be out of the scope of this article. vbs

• I agree the article is biased and inaccurate, but for somewhat different reasons. Back when I was a student in the United States, I used to interact almost on a daily basis with native speakers of European Portuguese and I never had any problem understanding them (I'm Brazilian BTW). Now that I am back in Brazil, I sometimes watch RTP International or SIC (i.e. Portuguese TV) on cable and also have no major problem understanding it. It is true that unstressed vowels, particularly "e" and to a lesser extent "a", are pronounced quite differently in Brazil and in Portugal, but for educated Brazilians at least, I don't think that has ever been an obstacle to mutual intelligibility. In fact, it is probably more difficult for me to understand someone with a thick "caipira" or "nordestino" accent than it is to understand someone from Lisbon. Keep in mind that I say so even though my ethnic background is only marginally Portuguese: my father's family is mixed Italian and Spaniard; my mother's family is partially of "recent" Portuguese origin (arriving in Brazil in the early 20th century) and partially "old Brazilian" (tracing its roots in Brazil back to the 17th century).

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I respectfully disagree. Brazilian Portuguese is really widely called simply Brésilien in the Francophonie, and regarded as a separate language; while Brazilians do laugh at the notion.

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I've NPOV it. That about the French lunguists its obviously false, But I dont doubt that some French said that. Obviously that is not encyclopedic. I've eard many things in life. I'll add more info soon. I'll put more different lexicon. And I'll talk about what else is different between the two writing forms. Brazilians dont laugh at European Portuguese, they normally get excited because they eard it. And laught in the front of TV, but not because its odd, because they are very curious about it. I think leandro is reading a Xenophobic site on the internet writen in English about Portugal. Cheers Pedro 22:16, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

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i tried to make the article a bit more neutral. both rio and sao paulo dialects are seen merely as regional dialects and do not actually have higher status in brazil, so i deleted that claim. i also made use of some interesting points that were previously added by 195.29.131.90 but which were as expected reverted by PedroPVZ (funnily enough, he took quite a while and had already made unrelated edits before deciding to revert these points claiming "vandalism"). Vbs 10:01, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Determining whether "paulistano" (not "paulista") or "carioca" have indeed a higher social status or not is quite tricky. Traditionally, sociolinguistics tend to identify the high-prestige dialects with those that are most often heard on TV, particularly newscasts. If that is the criterion, then "paulistano" and "carioca" have indeed higher status as they are the varieties of Brazilian Portuguese that dominate all major national TV news programs, most of which BTW are broadcast from either São Paulo or Rio. Incidentally, when visiting Fortaleza, it struck me that the local TV news anchors do not speak with a "nordestino"/"cearense" accent, but use instead some form of neutral accent closer to "paulistano". That seems to be similar to what happens (or used to happen at least) in the southern United States where local TV news also uses a neutral, sort of general/midwestern American English, as opposed to the more characteristic southern American English dialect.

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i hadn't actually read the recent changes of the whole article but now that i did I AM TOTALLY SHOCKED!!

• "standard: Eu vou convosco (I'm going with you) Vernacular (Brazil): Eu vou com vocês Vernacular (Northern Portugal): Eu vou com vós"
  

PedroPVZ, you shouldn't even try to write about things you know nothing about!! that sentence is plain absurd, not even THE MOST PURIST brazilian would claim "Eu vou convosco" to be standard brazilian portuguese!!! you will only find that kind of thing IN THE BIBLE at best!! vernacular??!!! smell the coffee PedroPVZ! Vbs 08:53, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• On top of what has already been said, "Eu vou com vocês" is standard Portuguese, accepted as correct by any school grammar. "Eu vou convosco" is on the other hand considered wrong, unless you address the people you are talking to by "vós". The use of 2nd person plural forms like "vosso" or "convosco" with "vocês" and the corresponding 3rd person verb forms is a non-standard characteristic of modern vernacular European Portuguese. Broadly speaking, the "vocês/vosso" combination in Portugal is somewhat analogous to the use in Brazil (e.g. in Rio and in the city of São Paulo) of "você" with "te" ("contigo" or "teu" with "você" is somewhat more rare in Brazil, but it is still heard, particularly in Rio). BTW, as someone said, "vós", "vosso", "convosco", in southeastern Brazil at least, are found only in the Bible and heard only in the Catholic mass. In the Northeast, I know that "vosso" is sometimes used in formal address (I've heard some Northeastern politicians use it occasionally).

portuguese domination on wikipedia

discussions about the biases in this article and in the "Portuguese Language" article have been going on recently here and previously here.

PedroPVZ, you shouldn't insist on making claims about things you don't know about!! "band" is one of the 5 NATIONAL channels, the MOST IMPORTANT ones (less important are the various regional channels, MTV for example, is a regional channel in brazil) and it's not a small channel at all!! my own claim that "Most Portuguese movies and soap operas are only broadcast in Brazil after being subtitled or dubbed" is even a euphemism! the only portuguese soap operas ever broadcast in brazil were on band channel and they were all dubbed, and almost no portuguese stuff at all is broadcast in brazil! i have never known of anything else besides the soup operas on band. i only put "Most" because it's simply impossible to be 100% sure of everything that's on television. for instance, there is one channel called "cultura" (although not very popular is one of my favorites), which is a culture and education driven channel (as the name suggests). cultura is well known for the practice of broadcasting movies or even documentaries without dubbing (as opposed to all the other national channels which dub everything), and if a portuguese movie happened to be broadcast in that channel, it would probably only be subtitled. so theoretically it would be possible that a movie could be broadcast without being dubbed. the claim that rio de janeiro is the standard is simply wrong! you don't seem to notice that as brazil is such a huge country, claiming rio's dialect is the standard, is quite similar to claiming that british english is the standard and american english isn't. it just doesn't work like that!! PedroPVZ obviously likes to claim BP to be based on the rio de janeiro dialect because he wants to take advantage of the fact that rio's esses ("s") are pronounced like the portuguese esses (ie "sh"), and so claim more similarities between BP and EP. Vbs 12:05, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Article name

I think the info on this article should be moved to an article that deals with the differences between Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese as a whole. It's pretty clear there's much more info here than it pertains BP alone. – Kaonashi 22:37, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

i agree. people might be interested in brazilian portuguese but might have no knowledge or interest whatsoever in european portuguese, so this article would be no good for them. actually, that article about the differences used to exist but was moved here. the talk pages related to the previous names that the article had still exist here and here. i think if moved it should be called "Differences between Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese". as it has been shown in previous discussions, the uses of the terms "dialect" and "variety" are far from universally agreed (some people even get offended with one or the other) and therefore should be avoided as much as possible. they are simply not needed, anyway. although someone might do, most people wouldn't say "American English dialect" nor "American English variety". most people would just say "American English" and that also goes for "British English", etc. just have a look at the wikipedia articles related to the english language and you'll see what i mean. but i do think we should have an article about brazilian portuguese, and that would probably have to be a completely brand new one. and the article should be about brazilian portuguese AS IT IS, not how certain people WANT it to be. Vbs 08:45, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contrary to what you wrote above, both Quebec French and Rioplatense Spanish are referred to in their respective Wikipedia articles as "dialects". American English on the other hand is referred to as the "distinct form" of the English language spoken in the United States. Personally, I have no objection to Brazilian Portuguese being called e.g. "the distinct variety of the Portuguese language used in Brazil". I would object however to the use of the reference "the dialect of Portuguese spoken in Brazil" not because I consider the word "dialect" pejorative, but rather because Brazilian Portuguese is actually a collection of several dialects ("paulistano", "carioca", "nordestino", "caipira", etc...).

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I would like to make a few remarks:

1) The use of the gerund to indicate the progressive tenses (e.g. "eu estou escrevendo") is NOT gramatically incorrect. Quite the contrary, the gerund was the standard form used for the progressive tenses in classical Portuguese. Likewise, both medieval and classical Portuguese favored the placement of clitics before the verb (like BTW French and Spanish), in line with the current Brazilian standard.

2) The use in (southeastern) Brazil of "te"/"teu" with "você" is analogous to the use in Portugal of the possessive pronoun "vosso" with "vocês". In other words, if one labels the Brazilian "você/te" combination as gramatically "incorrect", by the same token, the same label must apply to European Portuguese use of the combination "vocês/vosso".

3) Other "gramatically incorrect" features of spoken European Portuguese include: (a) the improper use of the pronoun "si" in situations where "você" would be required in the standard language (e.g. "Esse presente é para si" instead of "Esse presente é para você"); and (b) the improper replacement of conditional verb forms with the imperfect (e.g. "Gostava de saber ..." instead of "Gostaria de saber..."). Note that, in the case (a), "si" can only be used in standard written Portuguese as a reflexive pronoun, e.g. "Joana guardou para si os biscoitos que a sua mãe preparara". "Si" CANNOT be used however to refer to someone other than the subject of the sentence.

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I've just completed a major rewriting of much of this article. This article was obviously written by someone from Portugal, and much of the info was irrelevant, biased, out-of-date or wrong. This is what I've done:

• Fix a lot of unidiomatic English.
• Remove lots of redundant stuff.
• Rewrite the section on pronunciation.
• Remove references to things being "grammatically incorrect".
• Remove stuff specific to EP. I've stuck this on a new EP page, which needs work.
• Correct things I know to be incorrect.
• Add various other differences I've noticed between EP and BP.

I am not a native Brazilian, so I'd welcome one of them to go over and make sure what I've said is correct.

Benwing 02:58, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

First wave of immigrants

The first wave of Portuguese-speaking immigrants was settled in Brazil in the 15th Century

I corrected that to 16th Century. Brazil was only reached in the last year of the 15th Century (1500) and, even then, as I understand, Portugal only started settlement/colonization efforts in the 1530s.

Sorry about the confusion on the edits; my first edit mistakenly subtracted, not added, 1 from the century, and I even entered the wrong description for the edit.

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About the pronunciation of rock/hockey: they do NOT sound the same in BP. Rock, spelled like the english word, ends abruptly (?) (róqui). Hockey, however, has been transformed to portuguese (aportuguesado) hóquei and ends smoothly (? too).