Talk:Mockney

from Vfd

On 11 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Mockney for a record of the discussion. —Korath (Talk) 18:11, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

I just added a few notable Mockneys to the list

-- will self, and paul merton , and here is my mockney evidence -- Will Self is pure Oxbridge, from a very wealthy, upper middle class academic family but here is PURE UNADULTERATED MOCKNEY for ya guvna, and 'e is bang ta rights squire ! I rest me case --

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkk3K46iaU

I also added the following -- David Baddiel ,Phil Jupitus,Jools Holland,and Tracey Emin. Each one of the aforementioned is either resolutely middle, or upper middle class -- but all of them affect, or have indulged in a "White chapel Dick Van Dyke ow's yer favver" twang. It seems out of favour to play up the mockney twang nowadays, so in some cases, their accent has reverted to what it should be ( middle class )-- but if you look at older footage of ALL of the above -- their mockney tones would be enough to scare off the artful dodger and Fagin on a dark night. A quick scan of older youtube footage will bear out me claim m'lud, and may I wish yer all a luvverly evenin' with tha missus, an' may God bless ya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rutherfordlad (talk • contribs) 17:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

eres jools holland doin the ole mockney chat --

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9RL7JJQDzE

Here are more examples of Jools Holland's mockney twang -- A mockney is someone who is middle, or from upper middle class roots, as Jools certainly is, who assumes a cockney accent -- here is more footage. He was a mockney -- http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=hqqjy3Mnn8Q see from the circa 2.00 minute mark.

Anyway -- his accent as shown by those youtube vids -- is classic phony mockney. Do you need any more examples? If so here you go -- 

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=bBIzdPrOq14 And there are loads more. That accent is not a real London working class accent -- it is MOCKNEY.

Please also check my youtube links to WILL SELF and KEITH ALLEN for more MOCKNEY evidence. More to follow! Just in case you want proof -- follow the youtube links. 125.138.57.171 (talk) 14:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Madonna

I've heard her do fake home counties but never mockney. Should she be in the list?

I take it that your'e refering to her attempts at affecting RP, which she certainly tries, bless her! But by the same token, she 'as a good ol' bash at droppin' certain let-ers, speshley when she's ar-rarned her old man! Best wishes, Lion King 16:50, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Madonna was actually only born in Bay City, she was raised and educated in Rochester Hills, MI.

Social linguistic research

Although I am not aware of specific research on Mockney (although it does certainly exist), I think that a lot of general social linguistic explanations could be added. At the moment the article reads as quite judgemental. Dialect has always been a hot topic in the UK, defining social class there more than it does in other English speaking countries.

Even the term 'Mockney' is rather judgemental, suggesting something fake or non-genuine, or possibly a derisory attitude to Cockney itself. I would imagine that practising social linguists might prefer a different term.

Clearly what is going on is that 'Urban Youth Culture' is percieved as being cool (or having prestige), at least to some people. Thus, some people immitate the accent. But it does look like that it is a separate and distinct dialect from Cockney. I do believe however, that somethings are being conflated. As mentioned in the article, people do adjust their idiolect depending on circumstances (such as who they are talking to, and what relationship they wish to create between themself and the listener in terms of power and social space). In this sense, they might adopt a more colloquial manner of speech, and this could resemble Mockney. But adjusting your speech temporarily does not necessarily indicate membership or identification with a particular social group.

I think the important point in this article, is the changing patterns of dialect use in Britain. It is becoming less a matter of social class or region and more a case of cultural identity. And within this context the urban speech patterns of London (the big city, a sign of cutting edge culture and hipness) have taken on prestige. In a sense there is not much new about this. Region accents (or whole dialects) that are associated with culture, breeding (higher social status) have always been immitated. RP itself derives from the Oxbridge speech of the University towns, education being much admired by the middle classes (the greatest exponents of RP, the real upper classes speaking somewhat differently) as a means to social advancement, not depending so much on the luck of birth that aristocracy does. So, a move from 'education' (in its latter day form of Public Schooling) to hipness. 58.107.87.183 10:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I spy an undergraduate.....

Merging

I wonder if this article should be merged into Estuary English - after all this is part of the "Estuary convergence", if you get what I mean, isn't it? 62.43.177.158 18:39, 10 July 2006 (GMT)

Reply -- I see your point, but don't think it should be merged, becuase the difference, though sometimes hard to perceive to the untrained ear -- is a qualitative one, and one of "genuinity vs fake". The Estuary accent, though definitely sometimes faked, is also sometimes a genuine indication of cultural change. For example, the common working class accent in areas around Banbury, Didcot, Reading,Slough etc 20/25 years ago was very rural, and very similar to a twangy Gloucester accent in which the "r's" were accentuated and rolled, and the first person appelation "I" was rendered as "Oi". However, after constant exposure to TV, music, the closeness that faster modes of travel bring -- the accent now sounds far more similar to a fairly anonyomous, softer North London accent. It is a genuine phenomena -- Mockney on the other hand -- is fakery, for the ( perceived)end of image and status, and often, shame at having "uncool/unsexy/non street wise" upper middle class roots. Therefore the distinct nature of the mockney, deserves its own page me ole' china! An' may ya enjoy a grea' day sah! 'At's off ta ya squire! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rutherfordlad (talk • contribs) 17:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Bill Bailey

When was Bill Bailey accused of being mockney? --84.68.41.131 18:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to know. Jeremy Clarkson is another one I don't understand, I've never heard cockney in his accent. There are others that I could more easily be mistaken on, but I think the inclusions in this article need to be backed up with some substance. MrAngy 03:03, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Bill Bailey always mentions his west country roots. Chwyatt 10:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Zara Phillips

She is 11th in the British Order of Succession and not really "heir to the throne". Benson85 04:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Lampard, Lily Allen

I don't think that these 2 should be included in the list. Frank Lampard is from the East End and although he went to a private school I stil thinks his accent is genuine. As for Lily Allen she is not from the east end but I have not heard her ever trying to speak with a cockney accent.

Rubbish! She was on Jonathon Ross last week and you could blatently hear her trying to mockney it up then forgetting halfway through - then at the end a beautiful "See ya' layt-errr!". Not sure about her dad though - he just seems to want to be younger than he really is.

Lily Allen not mockney????

Lily Allen IS TOTAL mockney ! Listen to her song SMILE -- it's wall to wall, inescapable mockney hell! Like father, like daughter.Keith Allen is a well off ex public school boy, affecting mockney hell too ! ( See 2nd clip )

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=HZyTOROlo9E

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=AxhQApr-17E —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.138.57.171 (talk) 11:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there are several dubious includsions in the Mockney list. Frank Lampard is not a classic example of Mockney since his renown has no basis in his accent. Jamie Oliver would be a better example becuase not only is his accent dubious, but it is also a vital part of his image. Blibbka 01:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Sources needed / possible NPOV

The cited CBC article doesn't constitute a source for a lot of what's in the article (indeed it cites this article). Nor does the everything2 node. Is this article in fact original research? - crazyscot 18:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Van Dyke

"Dick Van Dyke's execrable cockney accent" - is the use of execrable NPOV? - crazyscot 18:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Mary_Poppins_(1964_film)#Ridicule_of_Van_Dyke. AnonMoos 12:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Notable mockneys

I renamed it as I dont see how it can relate to popular culture. Seems a little too trivial 77.99.186.110 (talk) 21:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)