Talk:Body of Lies (film): Difference between revisions

Revision as of 19:47, 15 October 2008

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}.

Film Start‑class

	Film portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Film. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the guidelines.FilmWikipedia:WikiProject FilmTemplate:WikiProject Filmfilm articles
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Body of Lies (film) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Headlines

Headlines... ones used have been struck out, but the last one is no longer online. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 20:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name Change

Resolved

– Film is confirmed to be titled Body of Lies via its trailer. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the movie has been changed to House of Lies, likely for marketing reassons, Body of Lies sounds like something starring Sharon Stone perhaps. 201.215.174.211 (talk) 14:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think that there is verifiability about a definite title change. I did find this interview in which Ridley Scott said it was renamed to A House of Lies. I'm not certain about the finality of this statement since recent press continues to call it Body of Lies. I've redirected House of Lies and A House of Lies here, and if we can source a title change, we can request a move. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 13:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An article in The Kansas City Star on July 4, 2008 mentions the rename to House of Lies. Trying to find further confirmation; they may have simply garnered that detail from IMDb, which can be inaccurate. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 17:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The new trailer shows that it's Body of Lies, so that closes the discussion. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Russell Crowe Weight Issue

The Wiki article says Crowe lost 30 pounds for the role. As heavy as he appears in the photos, I suspect the article should read that he gained 30 pounds for the role. Can someone research and verify this point?

Russell Crowe Weight Issue

The Wiki article says Crowe lost 30 pounds for the role. As heavy as he appears in the photos, I suspect the article should read that he gained 30 pounds for the role. Can someone research and verify this point?

Portia McCracken —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.76.234.251 (talk) 16:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I definitely think it's a mistake. Crowe gained weight for this movie, not lost.SchumiChamp (talk) 17:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-Screening

The movie is also being pre-screened at the University of Kansas on October 7th. 129.237.169.101 (talk) 16:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Body of Lies (film) → Body of Lies — I am setting up this discussion for a requested move on the behalf of another editor, who initially redirected Body of Lies, currently a disambiguation page, to Body of Lies (film). I think that we should determine a consensus that if the film article is the primary topic, Body of Lies (film) should be moved to Body of Lies. However, there are a couple of factors to consider -- Body of Lies (novel) is the primary source on which the film is based, and it may be considered recentism to push a new film article to claim the "primary topic" slot. — Erik (talk • contrib) - 17:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Considering that the film is based on the novel, I feel that Body of Lies (novel) should be moved to Body of Lies. The title of this article be kept as it is. However if there is an opinion that the film is more notable and better coverage, the move is fine. An example of such a situation is Sex and the City and Sex and the City (novel). ^LeaveSleaves _talk 17:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) A preliminary thought... I think it is clear that the film will make bigger headlines than the book on which it is based, but considering that both are recent mediums, is it too preemptive to put one ahead of the other? Is it because the novel article is not as fleshed out? WP:NCF says, "When there is no risk of ambiguity or confusion with an existing Wikipedia article, let the title of the article be the same as the title of the film. But where it is the same as a subject in science, a novel, or whatever, unless the film title is the primary topic for that name, title the film article like this: Film Title (film)." Just food for thought. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 17:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care which one is the primary article (although the traffic statistics [1] [2] surely give the answer). My problem is where editors interested in creating pages (I'm saying this in general, I'm not referring to any one editor) put their interest in pumping up their own page creation statistics before the interest of the those reading this encyclopedia. When a dab page has two entries its a waste of a page, a waste of time, and a waste of clicks. All search problems can easily be resolved by making one of the articles the "main" article and placing a hatnote at the top of the article pointing to the other article. With a dab page, every single searcher will have to click twice to see their article. Without a silly two-entry dab page, atleast half (ideally) of searchers will see their article with one click. One might think, "big deal, it's just a click". But as editors, besides for writing an encyclopedia, we must manage this encyclopedia. So even for those that have a high-speed connection and another click will not make a difference, that split second is more important than our desire to create new silly two-entry dab pages. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 17:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since I created both the novel article and the disambiguation article, I'll explain why I structured it the way I did in the first place. Since both were recent mediums, I wanted to provide an objective setup so both topics could be presented equally. I guess I just think that it's a little bit of a knee-jerk reaction to put the film of the week in front. Implicit importance, if you will. Maybe I think too long-term, but the novel and the film may or may not have lasting importance. The film will certainly have its share of headlines for this month, but will it be anything more than a mere snapshot in the history of cinema? I understand that the dab page can be slim; I guess my reasoning was to present both topics on equal footing, especially prior to the film's release, making navigation objective. It seems like the other objective approach is what Sleaves suggested above, to put the novel article in forefront since it was the launching point for the film. Yet this seems to make the novel pretty important... many great films have been made out of obscure stories. Can we say for sure about this here? With the novel being recent, Google News Search shows that the film has led to some focus on the novel. All these circumstances is why I've pursued "equal footing" with such articles. And believe me, I'm not worried about my page creation statistics... I can't even remember how to look that up, just my usual edit count. :) —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)Brecrewer makes a pretty good point, a disambiguation page is unnecessary. Hatnotes should suffice at the top of each article and, in spite of rightful claims of recentism, I think it's in the best interest of Wikipedia to make the simplest search term point to the most visited and edited article. The film article should still be named Body of Lies (film) and Body of Lies should only be a redirect. There is no reason why at some later point in time (a year or so from now, once there are other films to edit and this one is put on the proverbial backburner) we can't redirect Body of Lies back to the novel if that is consensus at that time. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 18:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. A whole page is move is unnecessary. One thing, however. Only one article needs a hatnote, not both. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 18:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's one more thing I found out. There's another novel by Iris Johansen with the same name. I guess in light of this, keeping Body of Lies as a redirect would be the best idea, if someone wishes to start another article. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 19:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure you don't mean to say "keeping Body of Lies as a disambiguation would be the best idea" instead of "keeping Body of Lies as a redirect would be the best idea"? SWik78 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I meant redirect, with an option for dab in future. The Johansen novel was published in '02 and there hasn't been any article yet, nor do I see a possibility of one being created (no strong judgments here). Although if there is feeling that the '02 novel be mentioned, we can link it from Body of Lies (novel). Or create an elaborate hatnote on this page. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 19:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:D#Disambiguation page or disambiguation links? states "if there are two topics for a term but neither is considered the primary topic, then a disambiguation page is used", so a 2-term disambig page is OK, if it's at the topic name itself. This is what should be done if agreement can't be reached on which is primary, and my preferred option, as both are too recent to determine which is primary. --Rogerb67 (talk) 02:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. Neither strikes me as the most prominent; indeed, neither has been around long enough for that kind of judgement call to be made by anyone. There is absolutely no harm in keeping Body of Lies as a disambiguation page for now. We're not writing this encyclopedia overnight; if one of them ultimately lodges itself in the popular conciousness more than the other, then there's no prejudice against reopening this discussion at a later date. Steve ^{T • C} 07:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree that both are too recent to allow us to pick a primary article based on perceived importance or notability. But for the purposes of providing the gretest benefit both to our readers and to our editors, I think that consideration should be given to the one article whose traffic flow is 13 times greater than the other article's. The redirect does not have to be permanent and it shouldn't have to imply importance of the subject, merely it should be a tool of convenience for the 93% of people typing in the search term "Body of Lies" and expecting to see the article about the film. Another solution might be to use Body of Lies as a redirect to Body of Lies (film) and have a hatnote at the top of the film article that links to Body of Lies (disambiguation) that lists all three current dab entries. Again, the redirect can be changed in a year or so from now, it need not be permanent. SWik78 (talk • contribs)

This keeps getting more interesting... Body of Lies (soundtrack) was created. I would prefer for the soundtrack article to have been a section of the film article as it may be too early to determine if a separate soundtrack article, one that uses a citation from the film article, is really warranted. To be honest, I think Rogerb67 made the case with the dab information that he cited... while a disambiguation page with two tangible articles is pretty slim, it is still completely acceptable. I think a couple of editors have noted that recentism may be a factor. Maybe later on, if the film is shown to be historically relevant such as being an example of terrorism in cinema, it could move to the forefront. One example of bucking the two-article dab trend is Road to Perdition, a film article with a hatnote to Road to Perdition (comics). I proposed that setup, and it was some time after the film came out. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 13:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]