Talk:Ancient Egyptian religion

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A little while ago, I wrote an impassioned plea for help on the Horus talk page because I was very confused by my source. I'm extending that to all of Egyptian mythology. I plan on finding a source specifically devoted to it and trying to fix it, but not until I get some of these words out of my head before it explodes from trying to comprehend the Egyptians having a couple hundred gods, but only fifty or so names (as far as I can tell).

God A had a son named God B. God B was also known as God C, which was sometimes spelled God D. God D is also a different aspect of God A (his father, usually, though sometimes God E was his father). God E was a different aspect of God B, and an alternate spelling of God A. In addition, God E had a son with God B's daughter, God F, named God G. God G was actually a different form of God C (making him his own uncle??? second-cousin?), as well as an alternate spelling of God C (aka God D, aka God A, and an alternate form for God G) and a different form of God B. Try putting all that in your own words. (Perhaps this is why monotheism became popular

Anyway, I'm terrifically confused and if I have made any mistakes (I'm sure I have) feel free to change them to reflect the truth. Tokerboy 23:10 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

Funny, that's pretty much what Sir Wallis Budge said in the preface of his Egyptian Religion, although he was somewhat less passionate about it. If you're not already using his book to help you sort thru this jungle, I recommend it to you: ISBN 0-8065-1229-6 (in paperback -- I think I got it from Hamilton). -- isis 23:29 Oct 2, 2002 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll see if I can get the chance to track it down. Tokerboy 06:07 Oct 3, 2002 (UTC)

Its actually increadibly easy to understand - I have tried to re-write it to make this clear. There were initially 3 different religions - one with Ra as the chief god, one with Ptah as the head, and one with Atum. What happened was that the groups influenced each other over time, politics having a HUGE say (indeed changing Set from hero into villain, merely because the Hyksos quite liked him),

the changes were as follows

• Atum + Ra (1) -> Atum-Ra -> Ra (2)
• Ra (2) + Horus (1) -> Ra-Herakty = Horus (2)

Horus (1) was the son of Geb and Nuit, and named Horus the Elder

Ra-Herakty means Ra, who is Horus-of-the-two-horizons

Horus (2) was born from the primal mound (since Ra (1) and Ra (2) were)

meanwhile

• Ptah + Seker -> Ptah-Seker
• Ptah-Seker + Osiris (1) -> Ptah-Seker-Osiris -> Osiris (2)

and

• various cow-goddesses + Hathor (1) ->Hathor (2)
• Hathor (2) + Isis (1) -> Isis (2)

and

• Set(1) + Apep + various other evil gods+demons -> Set (2)

Set (1) was a hero, Set (2) was a villain

then (for political reasons)

• Horus (2) -> Harpocrates = Horus (3)

Harpocrates meaning Horus the child

Horus (3) is the son of Osiris (2) and Isis (2)

finally

• Horus (3) + Osiris(2) -> Horus/Osiris (4)

Horus/Osiris (4) was only just happening at the end of egyptian mythology, so they still maintained some seperate identity.

N.b. some people allege that the final stage was

• Horus/Osiris (4) -> Jesus/God-the-Father
• Isis (2)-> Mary (Meri is egyptian for Beloved, one of the titles of Isis)
• Set (2) ->Satan

Thanks for clearing it up! I don't really edit much mythology stuff anymore, but that's definitely a lot better. Tuf-Kat 21:21, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

I edited the comment beginning the "Death" section: "Egypt was possibly the first civilization to have any belief in an afterlife," should be removed as it is blatantly false. You can say the Egyptians were unique, perhaps even innovative, in their views of the afterlife, but to say they were the first denies way too much evidence to the contrary. DJProFusion 00:42, 19 January 2006 (UTC)DJProFusion

Religion or mythology?

I think this article should be at Egyptian religion. The mythology is only part of the religion. The theology examined by people like Erik Hornung and Siegfried Morenz is distinct from the mythology. Rd232 22:13, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Positional afterlife

I watched excerpts of a French documentary named Pharaon dealing with mummies, and Egyptian religion. I understood that the Egyptians believed in three types of afterlife:

• Eastwards, joining the sun-barge through the day
• Westwards, going into the land of the night with Osiris.
• Northwards, gathering around Polaris.

The westward one was not the preferred one. I had never heard about this division, so I am puzzled, but the film showed Zahi Hawass among other experts so it would not be very fringe.

I think it may be confusing for us because over time different interpretations of the after death journey held sway at different times. In true Egyptian fashion they fused them rather than replacing them so in the end there is a kind of amalgam of stellar, solar and Osirian processes. that is not to say that they are contradictory but they are different expressions of the same fundamental view. In the Old Kingdom the stellar view is stressed more - the king's aspiration is to become an imperishable star, the Osirian cycle is about the survival of the person through Horus and the selfs ultimate identity will the creative power, the solar one is to harmonize with the suns nightly regeneration (e.g. in the Amduat). Apepch7 22:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

How Many?

I need to know about how many Egyptian Deities there are before...tommorow. Please help me...

For future reference, that number is unknown, those deities known to modern man could fill a volume according to E. A. Wallis Budge, but we don't know which existed prior to writing, and we don't know how many passed away or belonged to an individual family, etc.

KV 18:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

According to relation standards... There are 42 Neteru that are named...this does not mean that there are only 42 gods...each god may have many aspects...Since this is the area of study i am currently involved in - i am going to make this page as comprehensive as i possibly can...Sorry I am late answering..--Maa-Kheru 04:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok... Ra, Amun, Ptah, Atum, Aten, Khumn, Shu, Tefnut, Sekhmet, Hathor, Geb, Nut, Osiris, Isis, Seth, Nephthys (sp?), Horus, Bastet, Bes, Sobek, Thoth, Anubis, Ba'al, That Phoencean goddess begining with an A, That other Phoencian goddess begining with an A, Quedesh (Sp?), Hapi, Hapy, Duatmateuf, Quesdemmuf (Sp?), The other son of Horus, Ma'at, Imhotep, Tat (Sp?, A sphinx god), Mut, Konshu, Tawert, the endless gaggle of Pharaohs (except for Akhenaten), Heka, Ammat, Apep (though Apep seems more like a devil then a god), Sokar, and Selqet. There are probably more, though. Tutthoth-Ankhre (talk) 17:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Egyptian Mythology != Egyptian Religion

Two acclaimed authors state very clearly that the educated classes of Egypt not only were monotheistic, but had no clue that their beliefs could ever be misrepresented..... E. A. Wallis Budge and Manly P. Hall. In fact, Egypt's monotheism has effected many other monotheisms, such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Something has to be done to fix this. I propose that I change the redirecting article of egyptian religion to a true article on the subject while some minor cleanup in the non-factual POV of Egyptian Idolatry be washed out.

KV 18:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Egyptian religon is not monotheistic... it is henotheistic...

No! There are over one hundered egyptian gods! Tutthoth-Ankhre (talk) 23:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject: Egyptian Religion

I am proposing a Wikiproject to enhance articles on Egyptian Religion.... please check it out and see if you want to add yourself.

KV 19:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Akhenaten

This article places Ankhenaten in the Roman period, which is blatantly false (as described in the Ankhenaten article itself which puts him around 1379 BC. What gives? --Black Butterfly 13:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone apparently goofed in the editing. Akhenaten should go before the Libyan period, but I don't know what period it should be called. It reads like a section before it might have been accidentally deleted, also. Coyoty 18:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not really understand why this was placed under "external influences" (the mention of possible Hebrew influence is relatively brief); am going to insert parts of it into the Ankhenaten section. --Black Butterfly 12:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed and copied it below. I don't understand why it lasted there for as long as it did! It also needs more editing. The citations, for example, are not included in the references section. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · t 04:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Around this time was also Akhenaten, who was thought to have been divinely inspired. However, it does not seem likely that Akhenaten simply decided out of the blue to make such a major change in religion at the time. Many early historians, determined to link Akhenaten's religion somehow to the Jewish religion, said that he was inspired by Joseph or Moses (Redford, p. 4, 1984). This is a possibility, considering that Joseph, at least, was around in roughly the same time period as Akhenaten. However, after close examination of Akhenaten's religion, this hypothesis seems unlikely. Akhenaten's religion did center on one god, but his major emphasis was on the Aten's visibility, tangibility, and undeniable realness. Akhenaten placed no emphasis, therefore, on faith.

According to John Tuthill, a professor at the University of Guam, Akhenaten's reasons for his religious reform were political. By the time of Akhenaten's reign, the god Amen had risen to such a high status that the priests of Amen had become even more wealthy and powerful than the pharaohs. However, Barbara Mertz argued that Akhenaten and his courtiers would not have easily perceived this (Mertz, 1966, p. 269). Still, this theory remains as a possibility to be considered. It may be that Akhenaten was influenced by his family members, particularly his wife or mother (Dunham, 1963, p. 4; Mertz, 1966, p. 269). There was a certain trend in Akhenaten's family towards sun-worship. Towards the end of the reign of Akhenaten's father, Amenhotep III, the Aten was depicted increasingly often. Some historians have suggested that the same religious revolution would have happened even if Akhenaten had never become pharaoh at all. However, considering the violent reaction that followed shortly after Akhenaten's untimely death, this seems improbable.

The reasons for Akhenaten's revolution still remain a mystery. Until further evidence can be uncovered, it will be impossible to know just what motivated his unusual behavior.

The External influences and Notes on pronunciation sections (see the History) have been removed as they have little to do with the article's topic and do not even refer to the topic —Flembles 12:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

What was the point of putting this?

I found this randomly inserted in the article...

The most powerful god was Sarah the great. She would decend to the earth once a year to to make sure everthing was pleasing. If it wasn't, she would take sacrifices to McDonalds for burgers on them. If she was pleased, she would let them go. If not, she would eat them. Sarah was the most beatiful god, depicted in pictures as a tall penguin.

Har har, very funny. Knock it off, people come here to be informed, not amused.

Amut

Not a goD but a diety? If I'm am reading that right.... how can a deity not be a god?

You are correct. According to Wiktionary, 'Deity' comes from the latin 'Deus' which means 'God'. I suppose Deity encompasses 'God' and 'Goddess'. Donnyj (talk) 00:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)Donnyj

Fix this page.

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Jester----

This article has links to nowhere. It needs to be fixed. Or just plain re-written. Fix it soon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Truebluejester (talk • contribs) 15:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Fix this page.

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Jester----

This article has links to nowhere. It needs to be fixed. Or just plain re-written. Fix it soon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Truebluejester (talk • contribs) 15:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

Glyphdoctors

Someone has removed this external link on the basis that it is 'commercial'. I use this site all the time as I registered for free. There is a lot of information and discussion boards which I find invaluable. I am not sure that this site should have been removed but don't know what the rules are.Apepch7 12:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The rules against commercial sites are very strict. I have seen sources removed that had the information on the site, which itself was free, but the author did have a "buy my book" link on there that you could hardly see. Don't expect to have it readded. KV(Talk) 17:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

deities and gods

what is the difference between a god(I mean an ancient god) and a deity? What happens if the egyptians do not follow the religion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.214.71.43 (talk) 02:25:32, August 18, 2007 (UTC)

Difference between a god and a deity: zero. God is a Germanic word, deity a Romance one - English, being a magpie of a language, uses them both. What happens if Egyptians do not follow the religion? There wasn't much to follow - you just made the right sacrifices, follwoed the right rituals, and paid tithes to the right temples. If you didn't, of course, the priests wouldn't like it, and you wouldn't want that, now would you, if you were an ancient Egyptian? PiCo (talk) 08:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

"deity" includes both genders, while "gods" are male, the corresponding feminine being "goddess". dab (𒁳) 13:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this sentence right?

"After the fall of the Amarna dynasty, the original Egyptian pantheon survived more or less as the dominant religion, until the establishment of ... Islam..." The pantheon survived until Islam? Are we sure of this? PiCo (talk) 08:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

no. there may have lingering remnants well into the Roman period, with the Hieroglyphica dating to as late as the 5th century. These were confused memories of the older tradition, nothing like a "dominant religion". You could say in fairness that "Ancient Egyptian religion" went into steep decline and massive syncretism with Greek mystery traditions from the Ptolemaic period, with the last lingering remnants petering out in around the 5th century AD. --dab (𒁳) 12:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect Citing

In The Monothesism Period section, there appears to be citation, written in full, in the middle of the article.

"However, it may be that Akhenaten was influenced by his family members, particularly his wife or mother (Dunham, 1963, p. 4; Mertz, 1966, p. 269)."

Since I am a fairly new editor, would anyone mind properly citing this for me please (if it is incorrectly done so.)

Donnyj (talk) 00:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)Donnyj

Gods list

I wish to make a list of Gods and have got sitatians for them so that it can be a quick reference list (like a chart) can someone help me??? hannah (talk) 13:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

please consider starting out with this list here. --dab (𒁳) 12:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Animal heads?

I recently read in "Religions of the Ancient World: A Guide" (edited by Sarah Iles Johnston, 2004) that the Egyptians never actually believed their gods had animal heads stuck on top of human bodies. The gods simply had an animal form and a 'human' form and these two icons were combined into a the animalgods we know so well as a way of refering to both these forms at the same time. The book furthermore said that the Greeks misinterpreted this and thought that the Egyptians actually worshipped animal-headed gods and the idea has stuck ever since. I don't know if this is true since I haven't read any other scholarly literature on the subject of Egyptian religion. Could anyone confirm this? If so, I think this should be added to the article since the Egyptians gods are well-known for their 'strange' appearance. 84.28.49.55 (talk) 14:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Qualifications

I anyone here an Egyptologist or does anyone have any formal training? If so I would be most intrested to talk to you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.230.192.142 (talk) 23:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Is this really necessary?

"Egyptian religion has been called a form of "paganism" by the Christians who took over" because all ancient polytheistic faiths are called paganism by modern monotheistic cultures, and the fact isn't notable