Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust: Difference between revisions

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This entire article is culled from a single non-reliable source

Every single quote, fact, and passage in this article is culled from a single source--Wartime Rescue of Jews, edited and compiled by fringe right wing writer Mark Paul, and published by a non reliable source, the Polish Educational Foundation in North America. This article is essentially a summary of that non-reliable source, authored by a fringe author. The 40-odd references in this article are all culled from the same single Mark Paul essay, giving this Wikipedia article the false appearance of a well sourced encyclopedia article, rather than a summary and plagiarism of a single fringe source. It is being tagged appropriately. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 23:50, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any confrontational attitude would be highly inapropriate

I resent this highly inappropriate and deeply misinformed accusation based on a political agenda of a single user known for his inflammatory and confrontational attitude discussed by the community at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Piotrus 2/Evidence.
Special effort has been made to check and double-check the extensive online references provided thereafter. They are all in plain sight and available for confirmation via simple Google search. Not a single source has been omitted or misrepresented. The article might have been inspired by a couple of big pdf files, but that's a far cry from any copyright breach. Please keep you cool, Boodlesthecat. Your claim in not only unsubstantiated but also void of a single proof of actual non-adherence to Wikipedia policy guidelines. There's nothing wrong with supplying large size article with numerous citations. All of them are easy to find online. --Poeticbent talk 01:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, you summarized a fringe online source, copied all the quotes verbatim, all the facts identically, and simply transferred the references used in that fringe source to this Wiki article. Your responding with a personal attack does not change that simple, transparent fact. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 02:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about? Every single Wikipedia article is based on sources per policy guidelines. Does wp:no original research ring a bell? And please don't accuse me of personal attacks, because this is a matter of your attitude more than anything. I checked the sources, they are all good. --Poeticbent talk 02:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You lifted the entire article from the fringe website. It's obvious. Every single quote, verbatim, is taken from that website, every single incident cited is taken from that website. You then transferred the references he used to here. It's simply a summary of his article, complete with it's biases, one sided POV. Since you keep removing the tags, I'll put it up for AfD and let the community decide if you plagiarized or not. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 15:11, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would’ve been a lot more helpful, Boodlesthecat, if you were to work with me on this one. We both know that the concept of this article is not mine. It is not supposed to be original per Wikipedia policy of course. However, the fact that the article is based on an existing compilation of readily available sources does not discredit the idea of having something like that around here. Please, try to be more specific with regard to how you would like to see it being laid out? Nothing is written in stone around here, nevertheless, do know that it took me considerable effort to make sure that the facts, and the names of settlements mentioned are all confirmed in Holocaust literature. Time permitting, I’d like to continue checking on everything. – The true fact is that after writing over a dozen articles on the subject of Holocaust rescue, it occurred to me that there’s a need to have it summarized. The Polish Righteous or the Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Poland was not the right place for any of this. The article was badly needed, and I hope that it can be perfected with sensible contributions by other experienced editors. There’s no such thing as the risk of plagiarising any important subject in this matter. --Poeticbent talk 16:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is fundamentally flawed, not to mention offensive from the first ridiculously POV sentence: "Contrary to many negative stereotypes found in Holocaust literature, a considerable number of Polish settlements under the Nazi German occupation of Poland in World War II took part in collective rescue of Jews during the Holocaust."

Do you think Wikipedia is the place for articles presenting Mark Paul's (and perhaps your own) personal POV that "Holocaust literature" (ie, JEWS) are responsible for "negative stereotypes" of Poles? This is simply a POV fork (not to mention a massive plagiarism) designed to present a fringe, Jew bashing POV which is "countered" with cherry picked quotes and anecdotes to support the POV thesis. My suggestion is take it down, and if you are really interested in writing a serious article about rescue, create an article that discusses the full picture of Poles and Jews during the Holocaust, not simply a biased, seriously flawed POV puff piece. I will file an AfD otherwise. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 17:31, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just bare with me. The article is not a "puff piece" by any means. If you put your mind to it without the usual preconceived notions, it can be improved. The full picture of Poles and Jews during the Holocaust is not necessarily the same thing as the Wikipedia article about rescue. The article, of course, is meant to focus on the subject of rescue as such. If you see anything there that is inappropriate, please point it out again. --Poeticbent talk 18:05, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Editing articles

Wikipedia articles are works in progress, and any problems in regard to referencing or focus can easily be adjusted when editors work together for a common editorial goal. The subject matter of this article warrants attention, not erasure, and I can say that I am glad to see it put forth for consideration and review. In regard to the expression of concern on its contents, I would invite people to join with its original author to ensure that the article meets Wikipedia editorial standards. Thank you and be well. Ecoleetage (talk) 00:45, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is that the article appears to be plagiarized from a single source, and the multiple references appear to be all culled from that same source. It is merely a summary of that one single fringe source, including the viewpoint of that source.Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The entire article is plagiarized? From first word to last? May I please recommend working with the author before putting it up for Speedy Deletion? I've collaborated with the author on several occasions and the results were quite satisfactory. Thanks. Ecoleetage (talk) 00:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the entire article summarizes that single source. Take any quote and any fact in this article and you will find it nearly verbatim in the fringe source it was culled from That includes every single quote used. If I summarized a single book that had dozens of sources, and merely transferred those sources to my article, it is still plagiarism. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 00:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Plagiarism is a very strong accusation, and clearly the project is not well-served by having plagiarists in our midst. If you feel the article's author is a plagiarist, I might recommend making a report to the appropriate administrative board and opening a discussion therein. Ecoleetage (talk) 00:56, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to have the author at least be able to provide his response before doing so, but that is the likely next step. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 01:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article is simply a quasi-plagiarism lifted from a fringe right wing writer--examples

This article is culled from the writings of a fringe right wing writer, Mark Paul, and is simply a watered down version of his POV grafted onto to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not the place to summarize a work by a fringe right wing writer with uncomfortable connections to anti-semitism, place it here, complete with his one sided POV, copy his references, and call it an encyclopedia article. This is what Poeticbent has done. Just some quick spot checks:

Mark Paul writes: "A 9-year-old Jewish boy by the name of Wintluk (Wintel), who had lost his mother and three fingers when shot at by Germans while escaping, was taken in by a poor Polish family in Mulawicze near Bielsk Podlaski and then cared for and protected by the entire village who took pity on him:"

Poeticbent writes: In Mulawicze near Bielsk Podlaski the entire village took responsibility for the survival of an orphaned 9-year-old Jewish boy named Wintluk (Wintel).

First, please remove blatant WP:BIO violations from the introduction to this section if you want me to participate in this discussion. Second, for as long as your tag-team members keep stabbing from the back, the discussion will be crippled anyways. I just started searching for the sources listed next to examples provided. The above mention of a boy named Wintluk (Wintel) originated at Beata Budzik, warsztaty w ramach projektu „Ja Wam Pokażę” w dniach 17-18 lutego 2007 r. Translation from the Polish: the farmer with 4 children of his own took the boy in as his. He stayed for two years, and survived. When a German chief came, the boy left for a week and than returned. After the war, his aunts in America sponsored him. – I think the sentence can be rephrased with the above source included. Poeticbent talk

Please cite the "blatant WP:BIO violations". I see not a one.65.95.28.88 (talk) 23:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I add to this that according to your translation the source does not support your claim that " the entire village took responsibility for the survival of an orphaned 9-year-old Jewish boy named Wintluk".65.95.28.88 (talk) 23:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Paul writes: A teenaged boy and his mother, who lived in a damaged, abandoned house in Drzewica where he openly played with village boys, survived the war despite his Semitic appearance."

Poeticbent writes: "Another teenage boy lived openly with his mother in Drzewica despite their Semitic appearance."

I checked the primary source and I think this mention can be safely removed as insufficient. I'm very busy in real life right now. Will continue later maybe, if the article is still there. Poeticbent talk

Mark Paul writes: Ludwika Fiszer was one of three women who escaped naked from an execution pit where Jews from the Poniatowa labour camp were taken by Germans and their Ukrainian henchmen.

Poeticbent writes: Ludwika Fiszer who escaped naked—with two other women—from an execution pit in Poniatowa had to move from village to village while receiving assistance.[20]

The primary source is The Testimony of Ludwika Fiszer (escaped from the grave). Quote: "After crawling dozens of meters on hands and knees I met up with two other naked women I joined them — and after a harrowing experience — everything went as planned. We arrived in Warsaw without further misadventures." The brief mention in the article seems appropriate regardless of how it is phrased. I’d like to acknowledge also that the good people often live next door to people who need to be avoided at all cost, nonetheless, I don’t think it is necessary to speak of them in the same breath in this article. Poeticbent talk

According to your translation, the source doesn't support your statement that Fiszer and two other women moved "from village to village while receiving assistance."65.95.28.88 (talk) 23:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Paul writes: Alfreda and Bolesław Pietraszek sheltered several Jewish families consisting of 18 people on their farm in Czekanów near Sokołów Podlaski for a period of two years

Poeticbent writes: For two years, Alfreda and Bolesław Pietraszek sheltered several Jewish families consisting of 18 people in Ceranów near Sokołów Podlaski, relying on assistance from neighbors for feeding that many souls.[19]

The primary source is (Awards for the Righteous) "Odznaczenia dla Sprawiedliwych," Magazyn Internetowy Forum, September 26, 2007. (translation from the Polish). See Wikipedia article Alfreda and Bolesław Pietraszek for further specifics. Poeticbent talk

Mark Paul writes: The case of Doctor Olga Lilien, a Holocaust survivor from Lwów with a very marked Jewish appearance, who lived with a Polish family near Tarnobrzeg, is another example of solidarity among the Polish villagers

Poeticbent writes: Doctor Olga Lilien, a Holocaust survivor from Lwów (with strong Jewish looks) who lived with a Polish family near Tarnobrzeg recalls that in the village of two thousand no one denounced her despite the fact that the German gendarme offered two hundred deutsche marks as reward. He was told by the village Wójt that she was Polish.[1}

The primary source is DOCTOR OLGA LILIEN TELLS HER STORY at TO SAVE A LIFE. Quote: "The population of the village was about two thousand. They all knew there was something "wrong" with me. Any one of them could have sold me to the Germans for two hundred Deutsch marks, but out of two thousand people nobody did it. Everybody in that village protected me." (Olga Lilien) Poeticbent talk

Mark Paul writes: Faiga Rosenbluth, a penniless teenage Jewish girl from Kańczuga, roamed the countryside moving from one village to the next for some two years; she helped out by very many peasants and was not betrayed, even though she was readily recognized as a Jew.

Poeticbent writes: Faiga Rosenbluth, a penniless teenage Jewish girl from Kańczuga easily recognized as a Jew, was moved from one village to the next for two years, and not betrayed.[9]

The primary source is Hidden By Fay Walker, Leo Rosen, Caren S. Neile. Quote from Faiga Rosenbluth who was "depending on good feelings toward my family to keep me safe... clomping down these village roads in these big old peasant boots..." – We can rephrase it any way we like. Poeticbent talk

Mark Paul writes: Jewish partisan Gustaw Alef-Bolkowiak identifies the following villages in the Parczew-Ostrów Lubelski area as ones where “almost the entire population was actively engaged in helping fugitives from the ghettos”

Poeticbent writes: but another Jewish partisan, Gustaw Alef-Bolkowiak, identified several villages in the Parczew-Ostrów Lubelski area where "almost the entire population was actively engaged in helping":

Mark Paul writes: Jerzy and Irena Krępeć, who were awarded by Yad Vashem, sheltered and otherwise assisted a number of Jews on their farm in Gołąbki259 near Warsaw. Their son, a 14-year-old boy at the time, recalled: “the fact that they were hiding Jews was an open secret in the village. At times, there were 20 or 30 people living on the farm.

Poeticbent writes: Between 20 and 30 Jews (with visitors) were sheltered in Gołąbki at the farm of Jerzy and Irena Krępeć, which was "an open secret in the village [where] everyone knew they had to keep quiet [and] helped, 'if only to provide a meal'."[14]

Mark Paul writes: Zygmunt Srul Warszawer hid for 26 months moving from place to place among numerous villages, such as Wielki Las, in the triangle formed by Łaskarzew, Sobolew, and Wilga, “visiting every farm because he figured that if everyone helped him no one would turn him in—to do would mean self-destruction.” No one turned him away empty handed during those 26 months: “‘No one ever refused to help you?’ ‘No, not food!

Poeticbent writes: "No one ever refused to help you?" recalls Zygmunt Srul Warszawer hiding in the village of Wielki Las among other places. "No, not [only when asked about] food! In twenty-six months, not once."[24]

Poeticbent writes: Like many Polish Jews, Tema Rotman-Weinstock from Lublin was publicly baptized in Kajetanówka by a Catholic priest for her own protection similar to Franciszka Aronson in a village near Mińsk Mazowiecki.[30] In Ożarów, Ignaców, Szymanów, and Grodzisko near Leżajsk, the Jewish children were cared for by Catholic convents and their entire villages. "Not one traitor was to be found" among the locals; furthermore, the Christians did not take their children out from the schools Jews attended, solidifying their cover.[31] All taken directly from Paul, p 260.

Mark Paul writes: In the same area, in the Polish village of Okopi [sic], some tens of Jews were saved thanks to two special individuals… the Catholic priest [Rev. Ludwik Wrodarczyk]...The priest was burned alive in his church.”

Poeticbent writes: In Okopy village a Catholic priest was burned alive in his church for saving tens of Jews from Rokitno.

Again, Wikipedia is not the place to summarize a work by a fringe right wing writer with uncomfortable connections to anti-semitism, place it here, complete with his one sided POV, copy his references, and call it an encyclopedia article. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 16:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tagged as obvious COPYVIO

I've tagged this article as an obvious copyright violation. Also, regarding the citations used in the article, please review Wikipedia:Citing sources#Cite the place where you found the material. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please note: the blatant violation of WP:BLP by Boodlesthecat above, labelling whomever he wants with codewords like "right wing fringe author" without a single proof of any wrongdoing. The article includes 42 citations and additional 6 points of reference with links leading to works by Holocaust scholars and survivors. The primary source was a compilation of them, that's why the article can easily stand based on those sources alone with direct links and their detailed descriptions. It is a work in progress nevertheless, and the links are being checked as we speak. However, to blank the article with a CV tag is clearly a politically inspired overkill by a Jewish tag-team member who's never interested in participating in our discussions anyway except for brief notes to himself. --Poeticbent talk 17:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The source is accurately described as "a fringe right wing writer". Where is there a claim of "wrongdoing"? In what way is this description a "blatant violation of WP:BLP"?65.95.28.88 (talk) 23:27, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 :: First, please remove blatant [[WP:BIO]] violations from the introduction to this section if you want me to participate in this discussion. Second, for as long as your tag-team members keep stabbing from the back, the discussion will be crippled anyways. I just started searching for the sources listed next to examples provided. The above mention of a boy named Wintluk (Wintel) originated at  [http://www.jawampokaze.net.pl/teksty%20zrodlowe%20polecenia.doc  Beata Budzik, warsztaty w ramach projektu „Ja Wam Pokażę” w dniach 17-18 lutego 2007 r.] Translation from the Polish: the farmer with 4 children of his own took the boy in as his. He stayed for two years, and survived. When a German chief came, the boy left for a week and than returned. After the war, his aunts in America sponsored him. {{ndash}} I think the sentence can be rephrased with the above source included. <small>[[User:Poeticbent|<font face="Papyrus" color="darkblue"><b>Poeticbent</b></font>]] [[User_talk:Poeticbent|<small><font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk</font></small>]]</small>
 :::Please cite the "blatant [[WP:BIO]] violations". I see not a one.[[Special:Contributions/65.95.28.88|65.95.28.88]] ([[User talk:65.95.28.88|talk]]) 23:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
+:::: I add to this that according to your translation the source does not support your claim that " the entire village took responsibility for the survival of an orphaned 9-year-old Jewish boy named Wintluk".[[Special:Contributions/65.95.28.88|65.95.28.88]] ([[User talk:65.95.28.88|talk]]) 23:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
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 '''Mark Paul writes:'''
@@ Line 57: / Line 58: @@
 '''Poeticbent writes''':
 Ludwika Fiszer who escaped naked—with two other women—from an execution pit in Poniatowa had to move from village to village while receiving assistance.[20]
 :: The primary source is [http://www.zchor.org/poniatowa/fiszer.htm  The Testimony of Ludwika Fiszer (escaped from the grave).] Quote: "After crawling dozens of meters on hands and knees I met up with two other naked women I joined them — and after a harrowing experience — everything went as planned. We arrived in Warsaw without further misadventures." The brief mention in the article seems appropriate regardless of how it is phrased. I’d like to acknowledge also that ''the good people'' often live next door to people who need to be avoided at all cost, nonetheless, I don’t think it is necessary to speak of them in the same breath in this article. <small>[[User:Poeticbent|<font face="Papyrus" color="darkblue"><b>Poeticbent</b></font>]] [[User_talk:Poeticbent|<small><font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk</font></small>]]</small>
+:::According to your translation, the source doesn't support your statement that Fiszer and two other women moved "from village to village while receiving assistance."[[Special:Contributions/65.95.28.88|65.95.28.88]] ([[User talk:65.95.28.88|talk]]) 23:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
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 '''Mark Paul writes:'''