Talk:Dorje Shugden: Difference between revisions
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: ''Heart Jewel'' is based closely on the teachings of one of the greatest Dorje Shugden practitioners of the last century, Trijang Rinpoche, the Guru of the Dalai Lama and hundreds of other Gelugpa Lamas, and a Ganden Throne Holder. It is written by Geshe Kelsang, a close disciple of Trijang Rinpoche and one of the foremost proponents of Dorje Shugden practice. He is a highly respected Buddhist master, who has written 22 acclaimed Buddhist books. The practice of relying upon Dorje Shugden as a Wisdom Protector -- who safeguards our realizations of compassion, wisdom and spiritual power -- was handed down to Geshe Kelsang by the lineage Gurus of the Gelug tradition. It certainly merits being included in this article as a source! If it does not, then all references to the Dalai Lama's works must also likewise be considered neither independent nor neutral sources. ''Heart Jewel'' is just Dharma, unmixed with politics. The Dalai Lama's website www.dalailama.com, along with most of his pronouncements on the subject, are arguably far less neutral and reliable sources for this article on the nature of Dorje Shugden, as they are not Dharma but politics. They belong in the Controversy article. ([[User:Truthbody|Truthbody]] ([[User talk:Truthbody|talk]]) 18:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)) |
: ''Heart Jewel'' is based closely on the teachings of one of the greatest Dorje Shugden practitioners of the last century, Trijang Rinpoche, the Guru of the Dalai Lama and hundreds of other Gelugpa Lamas, and a Ganden Throne Holder. It is written by Geshe Kelsang, a close disciple of Trijang Rinpoche and one of the foremost proponents of Dorje Shugden practice. He is a highly respected Buddhist master, who has written 22 acclaimed Buddhist books. The practice of relying upon Dorje Shugden as a Wisdom Protector -- who safeguards our realizations of compassion, wisdom and spiritual power -- was handed down to Geshe Kelsang by the lineage Gurus of the Gelug tradition. It certainly merits being included in this article as a source! If it does not, then all references to the Dalai Lama's works must also likewise be considered neither independent nor neutral sources. ''Heart Jewel'' is just Dharma, unmixed with politics. The Dalai Lama's website www.dalailama.com, along with most of his pronouncements on the subject, are arguably far less neutral and reliable sources for this article on the nature of Dorje Shugden, as they are not Dharma but politics. They belong in the Controversy article. ([[User:Truthbody|Truthbody]] ([[User talk:Truthbody|talk]]) 18:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)) |
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: Also, Chris, the sad thing is that since the Dalai Lama made this into a political issue and not just a religious practice, ''everyone'' is now involved in the controversy to one extent or another -- practitioners and non-practitioners alike. Some are defending their right to practice and some are opposing the practice. This is chronicled in the Controversy article. ([[User:Truthbody|Truthbody]] ([[User talk:Truthbody|talk]]) |
: Also, Chris, the sad thing is that since the Dalai Lama made this into a political issue and not just a religious practice, ''everyone'' is now involved in the controversy to one extent or another -- practitioners and non-practitioners alike. Some are defending their right to practice and some are opposing the practice. This is chronicled in the Controversy article. ([[User:Truthbody|Truthbody]] ([[User talk:Truthbody|talk]])18:33, 12 November 2008 (UTC)) |
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::The Yellow Book is also based closely on the teachings of Trijang Rinpoche, yet it's mention here is stronly rejected as GKG denies its validity. Although unrelated to the discussion, I'd also like to know if there is any reasoning for why Lama Tsong Khapa never mentioned this protector is he were to be so important in protecting his lineage. |
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::[[User:Jmlee369|Jmlee369]] ([[User talk:Jmlee369|talk]]) 07:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC) |
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: I've reinstated the point that the DL practised Dorje Shugden until he was into his forties as he has said so himself. The DL wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden that is widely available on the internet. Also I've reinstated 'particularly' because it is due to the actions of the present Dalai Lama that Dorje Shugden has become such a controversial figure. Other Tibetan Lamas only support the view of the DL, so he has to bear primary responsibility for the present division in the Buddhist Sangha.--[[User:Truthsayer62|Truthsayer62]] ([[User talk:Truthsayer62|talk]]) 15:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC) |
: I've reinstated the point that the DL practised Dorje Shugden until he was into his forties as he has said so himself. The DL wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden that is widely available on the internet. Also I've reinstated 'particularly' because it is due to the actions of the present Dalai Lama that Dorje Shugden has become such a controversial figure. Other Tibetan Lamas only support the view of the DL, so he has to bear primary responsibility for the present division in the Buddhist Sangha.--[[User:Truthsayer62|Truthsayer62]] ([[User talk:Truthsayer62|talk]]) 15:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 07:09, 14 November 2008
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Since nothing new had been added for ten days, I took the opportunity to archive the discussion to date again as once more it had grown very large. (see: Talk:Dorje Shugden/archive4)
Please add any new sections from top to bottom! Chris Fynn (talk) 05:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Neutral Point of View (NPOV)
— Please put discussion related to the neutrality of this article here —
To try to make this a little more neutral, I've added "some" and removed "all" in the first sentence of the second para in the opening summary - Sakya practitioners who see DS as a mundane protector obviously do not consider DS to be an incarnation or Emanation of Manjusri. Similarly I've removed from this para the perhaps contentious claim that the DL "practiced it himself until he was in his forties" and the "although they have provided no evidence of this when requested" - as this stuff doesn't really belong in the opening section which should present an overall summary. It might be appropriate in the Controversy section. I've also changed the "particularly the present Dalai Lama" to "including the present Dalai Lama" since there is no conclusive evidence that he does so any more particularly than others who oppose the practice.
"Heart Jewel" is a primary source written and published by DS practitioners involved in the Controversy ~ therefore not an independent or neutral source. Chris Fynn (talk) 11:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Heart Jewel is based closely on the teachings of one of the greatest Dorje Shugden practitioners of the last century, Trijang Rinpoche, the Guru of the Dalai Lama and hundreds of other Gelugpa Lamas, and a Ganden Throne Holder. It is written by Geshe Kelsang, a close disciple of Trijang Rinpoche and one of the foremost proponents of Dorje Shugden practice. He is a highly respected Buddhist master, who has written 22 acclaimed Buddhist books. The practice of relying upon Dorje Shugden as a Wisdom Protector -- who safeguards our realizations of compassion, wisdom and spiritual power -- was handed down to Geshe Kelsang by the lineage Gurus of the Gelug tradition. It certainly merits being included in this article as a source! If it does not, then all references to the Dalai Lama's works must also likewise be considered neither independent nor neutral sources. Heart Jewel is just Dharma, unmixed with politics. The Dalai Lama's website www.dalailama.com, along with most of his pronouncements on the subject, are arguably far less neutral and reliable sources for this article on the nature of Dorje Shugden, as they are not Dharma but politics. They belong in the Controversy article. (Truthbody (talk) 18:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC))
- Also, Chris, the sad thing is that since the Dalai Lama made this into a political issue and not just a religious practice, everyone is now involved in the controversy to one extent or another -- practitioners and non-practitioners alike. Some are defending their right to practice and some are opposing the practice. This is chronicled in the Controversy article. (Truthbody (talk)18:33, 12 November 2008 (UTC))
- The Yellow Book is also based closely on the teachings of Trijang Rinpoche, yet it's mention here is stronly rejected as GKG denies its validity. Although unrelated to the discussion, I'd also like to know if there is any reasoning for why Lama Tsong Khapa never mentioned this protector is he were to be so important in protecting his lineage.
- Jmlee369 (talk) 07:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
- I've reinstated the point that the DL practised Dorje Shugden until he was into his forties as he has said so himself. The DL wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden that is widely available on the internet. Also I've reinstated 'particularly' because it is due to the actions of the present Dalai Lama that Dorje Shugden has become such a controversial figure. Other Tibetan Lamas only support the view of the DL, so he has to bear primary responsibility for the present division in the Buddhist Sangha.--Truthsayer62 (talk) 15:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, if this section is to be added to the opening paragraphs (though I feel it is redundant as it is all covered in the controversy), it needs to be clear that the source of all the controversy is the Dalai Lama's own actions. Until he spoke out against and then banned the practice of Dorje Shugden, there was no controversy. Everyone practiced their own traditions. No one was forcing anyone else to stop practicing their tradition. No one had the power to do this until the 14th Dalai Lama assumed this power. All this is now well documented. (Truthbody (talk) 18:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC))