Talk:Abkhazia

What appears to be an informtive web site: http://www.abkhazia.org/home.html gives a population figure of 100,000, a much smaller number than is listed in this entry (200,000-250,000). Hmmm... Is there some way to determine which is the more accurate number? Frankatca

The 100,000 refers to (1) the population of the capital city; and (2) the population of ethnic Abkhazians - not the total population of the whole region. --David Schaich 02:59, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Someone needs to create an entry on so called "Confederation of Mountain Peoples of the Caucasus". Anyone? Maybe someone from "FSB" :) The sentence on it in the article is misleading. BJS

This page needs update, at least Georgian-Abkhaz conflict should be added as well as Russian peacemakers. This is pretty much related to current Russian-Georgian events. Anybody? --User:Vassili Nikolaev

I've added some more information from the Statesman's Yearbook (98-99). I don't have anything post 1999. Secretlondon 17:35, Nov 23, 2003 (UTC)

Stamps

Should discuss (maybe just mention)(not internationally recnognised) Abkhazian stamps. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:31, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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The Cyrillic characters above the flag say Abkhazia. But if the Abkhaz name for Abkhazia is Apsny, shouldn't it say that? That is, is there any language that uses Cyrillic characters in which it's called "Abkhazia"? AJD 05:33, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

- Russian?

This article represents pro-Georgian POV

The history section does not even mention about Abhazian Kingdom and other important history facts. It does not describe the conflict correctly. The whole article seems to be pro-Georgian and needs to be re-written... Rovoam 23:04, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Um, I'm afraid you'll need to be more specific. I've been watching this article for bias for a long time, and I'm very pro-Abkhaz. I don't see the bias, but maybe I'm missing something. Ambi 08:04, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please see below some of the automatically translated text. It is not perfect, but you may get an idea...

By the way, I have noticed on your home page the fact that you wrote the article about Larisa Bogoraz. I knew her personally, while I was living in Moscow back in 1978-83. She was also friend of Valeria Novodvorskaya. At that time here husband (Marchenko) was kept as a political prisoner... Rovoam

Here is the translation of the Russian article

Automatic translation (from ru:Республика Абхазия)

Abkhazians - small ethnic group, which is distinct being differed from Georgian. On the language and the culture they relate to the mountain peoples of the North Caucasus and they are some of the the oldest the inhabitants of West Transcaucasia. In the early middle ages Abkhazian Kingdom there existed in at one time with the Georgian Kingdom. In 1860-th years Abkhaziya was included into the Russian Empire. During the achievement and soon after it significant the part of the Abkhazian population (which confesses the mixture of Islamic, Christian and heathen beliefs) was either evicted or independently it was moved into the the adjacent Turkey. Despite to this, at the beginning of the twentieth century Abkhazians still composed the majority on their historical native land. After the revolution 1917 year Abkhaziya entered in the Soviet Union as sovereign republic in the composition so of that called Transcaucasian Federation, and its this status was confirmed in 1925 to year in the newly taken constitution of Abkhaziya. But in 1931 year this status was lowered to the Autonomous Republic in the composition Georgia.

During the Soviet period (especially under Stalin) Abkhaziya underwent massive "Georgification": Abkhazians underwent discrimination in many spheres. Laurentius Beria, the head of the Georgian Communist Party in 1930- yr. played very active role in realizing of this policy. As a result the persentage of Abkhazians sharply changed during the life of two generations. By 1989 year the number of Abkhazians was about 93000 (18 percent of the population of republic), while Georgian population was counted by 240000 (45 percent). Number of Armenians (15 percent of entire population) and Russians (14 percent) also substantially grew.

etc. etc.

To get an idea on how Russian version is different you may use Free On-Line transation services Rovoam

Population

Source/year	Total	Georgians	Abhazians	Russians	Armenians
Сensus 1926	174.126	31.350	83.794	?	?
Сensus 1959	405.000	158.200	56.197	86.700	64.400
Сensus 1970	?	199.596	77.276	?	?
Сensus 1979	?	213.322	83.087	?	?
Сensus 1989	?	?	?	?	?

Rovoam

Abkhazian kingdom was one of the feudal knighthoods in Georgia, along with Mengrelian kingdom, Emeretian kingdom, Kartli kingdom and others. There is no documented evidence (Georgian, Armenian, Arab or Greek) that the majority of population of the Abkhazia were the people who are identified currently as Abkhaz, or Georgians (Mengrelians, Svans) for that matter. Historians did not do histories of common people at that time. There is evidence, however, that the feudal lords and the elite of Abkhazia were Georgians. The reunification of Georgia started from Abkhazia by Abkhaz kings (princes), and ended up with kicking out Arabs from the whole territory of Georgia including Tbilisi by David III (see Britannica for that) in the 11th century. Your excerpt from the Russian article somehow misses that. It also misses the fact that during the Russian conquest of Caucasus in the beginning of 19th century, large number of Abkhaz along with other North Caucasian Muslim tribes (Chechens, Cherkez and Adigeess) were forced to abandon their homes to move to Turkey and Arab countries. Consequently more Abkhaz people live currently in Turkey and Jordan than in Abkhazia proper. That ethnic cleansing was done by Russians (not by Stalin – a Russian ruler of Georgian origin) in a similar way what Putin is doing now in Chechnya. So, I'd argue more for questionable neutrality of the Russian article than the English one. Considering the continuing Russian support to Abkhaz and Osetian separatists, using the Russian article as an authoritative source would be the same as using the information from Georgian newsgroups or press. bjs

I just found out that there is a Georgian version of Wikipedia already. Wanna replace the English and Russian articles with the translation of the Georgian one on Abkhazia? Russia has been an active participant in the conflict, and, therefore the Russian page cannot be considered as a neutral source. If there is a need of synchronization among the English, Georgian and Russian pages on Abkhazia on anything else related to the history, politics and culture of Caucasus, the English one needs to be used as an authoritative source and translate it into Russian and Georgian. bjs.

Well, if you think that Russian article is not good enough, because Russia has been a participant in the conflict, you probably assume that Russian article was written by Mr.Gorbachev or Mr.Eltsin. Since you think that Georian article is the most objective, you probably think that Georgia is not a participant of the conflict. However, this article was written by me, myself, and I am not a president of Russia, and I am not Abhazian, nor Georgian. Му article (in Russian) is based on the objective research, which is available on-line on both Russian and English (see, for example publications of U.S. Institute of Peace, some of them written by G.Starovoitova - a very trusted writer). If you think English version of Wikipedia is a main source, then we need to delete all existing Russian et al articles and translate English Wikipedia into Russian and other languages. However, the quality of English version is very poor (compare to Russian version). I don't think it is really a good idea to have everything identical (and maybe having being approved by The Central Commitee of the Communist Party?)

As of Abahizian history you have made a very valid point: there is not enough information - does it mean that we have to take your (pro-Georgian) interpretation? - I don't think so! Unless you are 1000 yesrs old and you lived in Ancient Abhazian Kingdom. But the truth is: Abhazian Kingdom existed at the same time as Georgian Kingdom(s), and at some point in history Abhazian Kings were in control of Georgian Kingdoms (ex. Abhazian king Leo, king George, etc.).

But I am not going to argue with you or with other nationalists. Because I don't care. English source of Wikipedia is very biosed already. So do whatever you want. Make up your story the way you want it to be. It's all yours now... Maybe when Abhazian people will read your version of their history they will change their mind too, and the conflict will be over? Good-Bye! And keep dreaming! ROVOAM.

P.S. English version of the article does not even mention about Abhazian Kingdom in its history section. What kind of history this is???!!! Is this what you call NPOV?! In Russian Wikipedia there is an article called "Abhazian Kingdom" in addition to the article of "Abhazian Republic" But... you probably don't want to know this! So... Keep dreaming! ROVOAM.

Yes, they were in control of Georgian kingdom and they were Georgians. At least they spoke and wrote in Georgian. Read the history including written by your own historians - Armenians!!! - not the one written on Lubianka. And, please do not vandalize the page. BJS. With due respect to Starovoitova as a Gorbachov’s time human rights activist, she cannot be considered as an authoritative writer on Georgian or Abkhazian history, especially on the ancient history. As for U.S. Institute of Peace, their branches exist in all former SU countries including Georgia and they too have some reputable writers. There publications are also online, and you can read them too and maybe translate in Russian to enhance the quality of your Russian article. BTW, all three countries, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia have agreed officially not to use the Russian term Transcaucassia any more. So, please use South Caucasus instead. BJS.

OK! Let's hide the well-known history facts to present Gerorgian point of view! Is this what you like to do? With all due respect to your ethnical feeling I would like to include in this article true history section. Sorry, but I would revert your changes. I also have rights to edit this article, not only you. If you don't like this, you are welcome to ask for arbitration. - Rovoam

P.S. Transcaucasian Federation and Transcaucassia are not the same terms!

Hi Rovoam, Well, I left the link but I had to revert your history edit, because it is a Russian POV. Abkhaz were not a majority at the begining of 20th century (see the Britanicca reference in the body of the text, which was there before I made any edits to this text). Russians made them a majority through ethnic cleansing. As much as you like to portray it as a conflict between Abkhaz and Georgians, it is not. It is a conflict created by Russians, fueled by Russians, and it will be over soon once Russia becomes a democratic state and quits its imperial ambitions, which is long overdue, and all refugees will return to their home places. BJS.

I have read Rovoam edits, while I agree there was POV in it, your edits are as well POV. Many of Rovoam ressources were not Russian "propaganda." And besides, I thought Rovoam was Russian not Armenian. The Russians never made them majority there, please refer to your sources, because what you say here is simply ridiculous. This situation in the article, seems exactly like the Karabagh entry. Fadix 01:44, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dear Fadix, Before calling something ridiculous, I’d suggest to do a simple logical reasoning and arithmetic: 1. Close to 50% of Abkhazia’s 500,000+ population according 1989 soviet census (not Georgian) were Georgians. Abkhazians at that time were only 70,000-80,000. The Russian military units located in Gudauta and the Russian black sea navy, and so called “volunteers” supported Abkhaz separatists in the war against the Georgian government forces and which led to the wide spread ethnic cleansing of Georgian population. 2. Russia continues to support the separatist regime there both economically and militarily, and resists the return of Georgian refugees to Abkhazia. There is enough evidence for that, even in this encyclopedia (not my contributions, btw). You can also do a simple Google search for that or, even better – Read the Russian duma resolutions, some of which are quite colorful themselves ... Giving Abkhaz and South Ossetians Russian citizenships and almost weekly consultations of Abkhaz and Ossetian’s separatists with Putin, the appointment of Russian generals as security and defense chiefs in the separatists governments are some of the recent evidence of Russia’s deep involvement in the conflict. But, I’m not going to do a homework for you here … I visited the Karabakh page and, yes, one parallel you can draw with the Abkhazia page is probably Rovoam’s involvement. Abkhazia, was historically Georgian territory, from the Colchis time and populated by Georgian tribes – Mengrels and Laz. The Abkhazian elite always was Georgian, even after and during Turkish invasion, conversion of the large part of Abkhazia’s population to Muslim religion and the advance of North Caucasian tribes down to the valley. Sokhumi was a city with Georgian population as a majority at the beginning of 19th century. I’m not familiar with the Albanian history and therefore, I cannot and I will not contribute the Nagorno Kharabakh discussion. I’m not Rovoam to make claims based on a superficial knowledge of something. As for Rovoam’s sources – well, he or she admitted that the article was written by the late ms. Starovoitova – a Russian ethnographer who studied longevity of Armenian population in Nagorno Karabakh and probably highlanders in Abkhazia as well, and who later became a politician and served various elected and government positions in Gorbachov’s and Eltsin’s time. But, being an ethnographer and studying longevity problems does not necessarily qualify her to be an authoritative source on Georgian history, or Armenian history for that matter. That is why, I suggested Rovoam to consult the writings of the old Armenian historians, and do not bring Ms. Starovoitova as an authoritative source on Georgian – Abkhazian history. And, that was it. Cheers and keep up your good work on Armenian culture and history. BJS

to BJS Bravo! Respect !!! Martin

The events between the collapse of the Russian Empire and the formation of the Soviet Union are missing

I believe these to be facts, but please correct me if I'm mistaken:

Abkhazia gained independance from the Russian Empire seperately from Georgia. Abkazia joined the North Caucasian Federation (NCF), Georgia the Democratic Federative Republic of Transcaucasia (DFRTC). Georgia left the DFRTC in 1918 as the Georgian Democratic Republic (GDP). The GDP then went on to annex Abkhazia, even though the two had previously recognised each other's independance. (This was condemned by amongst others the NCF and by the English.) Georgia and Abkhazia then initially joined the Soviet Union as seperate Soviet Republics only to form some sort of confederative union shortly afterwards. It wasn't until 1931 that Abkhazia was made subordinate to Georgia (as an Autonomous Soviet Republic) - by Stalin.

Furthermore, it is relevant that Soviet legislation was such that when Georgia left the Soviet Union in 1991, Abkhazia had the right to determine its own future (i.e. it was legally sovereign).

These are arguments put forward by the Abkhazian side, but I think that it is only fair that as facts these should be mentioned alongside facts supporting the Georgian pov (e.g. that in 1989 the largest ethnic group residing in Abkhazia was Mingrelian Georgians).