Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steve Gatena (3rd nomination): Difference between revisions

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Steve Gatena

After two low-vote "no consensus" AfDs, this is the third nomination for a non-notable college football player. The subject is a walk-on (non-scholarship) college football player at a major college program in the United States. While this article is well written, the bottom line is the subject is not notable under WP:Athlete.

In the time between the last AfD and this one, another article by the same group of editors, James Edward Miller (a scholarship athlete), was successfully deleted without nearly as much vociferous debate as the previous AfDs.

While I am firmly on the side that WP:ATHLETE should include notable American college football players (not all), this individual has --as of yet-- not done enough to distinguish himself. As of right now, he is a walk-on, non-scholarship player (see here); his only highlight is a scout team award given at the school's awards banquet (along with such awards as "most inspirational player", etc...). He has never started a game for the program, been anywhere meaningful on the depth chart, had any significant play-time this season, or had a notable-enough college career at any of his previous stops. The article is long and well-written, but does not at any point describe anything that crosses the threshold of notability for Wikipedia.

None of the sources cited in the article are significant: the have either minor mentions in local papers (which local high school kids got scholarships, who got accepted to a military academy, etc) or are written in student newspapers and are not "independent of the subject" as defined in WP:GNG. The sources are hardly "independent of the subject" and are "unlikely to be strong evidence of interest by the world at large" per WP:N.

Putting this article into the greater context: If Wikipedia were to permit all Division I-FBS (top level) scholarship athletes, we'd have approximately [120 (teams) x 85 (NCAA-allowed scholarship players)] 10,200 new articles (at least). If you include walk-ons, that 10,200 number increases with very little room for any opinion on notability. A line must be drawn, and I think this line can be agreed upon. This article is basically a well-crafted vanity page; this article appears to be the work of either the subject, friend/relative, or PR firm. If it were allowed, any player who successfully walks onto any team would have a free ticket into Wikipedia. I could see an overrun of hopeful punters and kickers with the ability to create a "pretty" but ultimately non-notable page. College football is not a black/white "include all/delete all" situation, and this player falls onto the non-notable side.

Because it came up earlier, I should note that the subject's level of education also isn't significant: the same USC roster includes a former high school Gatorade National Player of the Year and strong NFL prospect Jeff Byers, who is an MBA student. His article lists high school awards, but they are not significant like a national Player of the Year, or even a prestigious regional award.

Again: he has never started for USC or seen any significant playing time, which is a major blow to any notability questions. Because I support the inclusion of notable college football athletes in WP:ATHLETE, I feel this article harms the criteria for notable college football athlete. His USC bio shows nothing notable (in fact, unlike key players with articles here, there is no detailed information). As a side note: I previously created the WP:FA, 2007 USC Trojans football team and have a pretty good understanding of the USC Trojans and college football.

I should note that this article has a handful of strong defenders who have solely worked on this article, likely family and friends.

If the subject actually builds a successful, notable career at USC --starting in games, gaining significant playing time (and hopefully getting NFL, CFL or even Arena attention), then we have an existing article that can be quickly restored. The precedent has certainly been set: Clay Matthews III rose from a little-known walk-on to being a scholarship starting LB/DE this season and a solid NFL Draft prospect. Until Gatena reaches that point, Delete. Bobak (talk) 17:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. --Bobak (talk) 18:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. --Bobak (talk) 18:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Bobak (talk) 18:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – Likely passes WP:Athlete... If he has indeed played for USC, which is a Division I team "the highest amateur level" for American football. Some have argued college players don't meet WP:ATH if there is a professional level for the same sport. That is nonsense, and reading into WP:ATH what isn't there. WP:Athlete says: "People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships." As for the number of players who meet this criterion: Who cares? Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia and there almost 3 million articles right now. Even if there were 100,000 college sports player articles, that would only be about three percent of all current articles. This nomination is about this player only, not any number of other players. It isn't about successfully walking on or not, either. The line of inclusion is game action. Has he, or has he not, seen action in an NCAA Division I game? Strikehold (talk) 19:13, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Under your logic, should all of these "notable" Terrapins be included? If so, why haven't they been added yet? Do you want to do the honors if this passes? --Bobak (talk) 19:56, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I do not see the point you're trying to make. I assume it is in good faith, but what bearing do my contributions have on the discussion at hand? And more importantly: following your logic, if an individual's lack of an article implied a lack of notability, there would be no need for any further articles. Strikehold (talk) 20:12, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying that if a walk-on, a player who is brought onto a team to help fill the program and provide depth, warrants an article by virtue of being on a D-IA team, then all the players from every D-IA school --from ACC's Terps to the Sun Belt's Western Kentucky Hilltoppers-- would warrant their own articles for making the team. Are you willing to make the same vote for all of those inevitable AfDs? --Bobak (talk) 20:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who is saying that this player was brought onto the team to help fill the program and provide depth? It seems to me that one year ago USC's offensive line was the only group in question for the 2008 season and to my knowledge USC hasn't had a problem with filling their program or providing depth... But what do these situations have to do with this Wikipedia article? Both are irrelevant in determining deletion. 98.149.104.138 (talk) 20:52, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You misinterpret what I said slightly; I never said by simply "being on a D-IA team". If a player (walk-on or otherwise) sees action in a season game then they are notable under WP:ATH as it is currently written. Strikehold (talk) 20:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep -The fact that one other teammate has also achieved the notable status of graduate student does not trump this subjects achievements. Does the fact that there are many other Wikipedia administrators who trump the fact that you Bobak have also earned that status? No, and does the fact that there are many more administrators who have contributed to many more articles than you downgrade your importance to the Wikipedia community? Definitely not. Only comparing this subject to other subjects who have achieved more than him is not the way to go about determining whether or not this article should stand. Moreover, downplaying his achievements, is merely attacking this subject and those who have awarded him on a personal level. This is a very petty defense. The awards are what they are, thats all. Additionally, the service team award Gatena had received was given to him over many other players on the 2008 USC Trojans football team that have Wikipedia articles. These players, who's profiles Wikipedia user Bobak has either contributed to or created, could be considered less notable than the subject in dispute; however, Bobak has taken no action against these articles. On the contrary, he has supported and contributed to them. Does the fact that Gatena was awarded this service team award over those players mean that they are beneath him or that they should not be on Wikipedia, absolutely not. Because I believe those articles should be listed on Wikipedia along with Gatena's and because this discussion is not about those articles I will not name the articles. Although, I do believe the intense scrutiny of this article after repeated submissions for deletion by Bobak show his extreme negative bias towards this player.

- As a side note Bobak, the Most Inspirational Player award is a very important award, I'm not sure if you have any competitive athletic experience on a top amateur level such as the subject in question, but if you did than you would understand the importance of Most Inspirational Player. In fact Ray Lewis a very notable football player has been given this award many times. The Most Inspirational Player plays a key role in team morale and has a direct effect on achieving victories.

Back to my keep argument, this article is on Wikipedia because this subject is unique and meets Wikipedia's requirements. It is well written, it follows the guidelines of Wikipedia, and it is a neutral article that contains verifiable information in credible third-party sources. In no way does the ruling on article attempt to act as common law for "all Division I-FBS (top level) 'scholarship athletes'"(Bobak) and in no way is it an attempt to legitimize articles for over 10,000 college athletes. Again, comparing this subject to others has no bearing on this subjects notability. This subject is very unique, interesting, and notable and this is why this article is here. User Bobak can continue to compare Gatena to other players with more publicity and more awards and not compare him to the thousands of players with less awards and less publicity but it will not negate the fact that this subject is notable and verifiable. This article should be voted upon based of this subject alone and done so in accordance with Wikipedia's rules and policies. This article is not subject to a voting war or opinionated ruling but deserves a non-biased and impartial look. The culmination of achievements and unique accomplishments of this subject are in fact why this article exists. Whether or not two people vote keep or two thousand people vote keep the bearing of deletion should be based on factual evidence. Wikipedia is a tool for all users to positively contribute information. The creator's and editor's of this article or any other articles whether family, teachers, coaches or friends is irrelevant. Wikipedia articles are not based on a popularity and number of keep votes, they are based on the rules and regulations set forth by the organization of Wikipedia and its members. This article clearly meets those policies.

- And might I remind you, the subject who's article you are attempting to delete is outstanding member of his community, team, and school and shines a positive light upon all NCAA athletes. This citizen is not a criminal or poor student, as a USC Alum, why would you Bobak have a bias against this subjects article on Wikipedia? Sounds strange to me So for the third time, I vote keep. 99Legend (talk) 19:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

question I'm not a fan of college football, but I interpret participating at the highest amateur level as participating significantly in the actual competitive games, not being in the reserve or having few minutes on the field. I believe that for professional football or baseball, or for the Olympics, we count any appearance on the field as sufficient, but i am not convinced we should do so here, especially as playing in college football unless there is some special distinction is apparently considered a borderline case in general. DGG (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Response - Gatena was a member of the "service team". If the service team is anything like scout teams at other colleges, it means he played on a team that provided opposition to the first team in practices. Scout team members would generally only see token playing time at end of games where the result is no longer in question. --Mosmof (talk) 20:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Response Gatena also started his first full healthy season of college football for the Division 1 UC Davis Football team. Additionally, he has played in games with the USC Trojans Football team. 99Legend (talk) 21:19, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails WP:N - I've outlined the reasons in Talk:Steve Gatena, but to summarize, the Steve Gatena has not been a subject of significant coverage in multiple, third party sources.
- A brief profile in an LA Times blog post about the USC's walk-on players that season is not significant coverage.
- A campus paper article about a member of the school's football team is not a source independent of the subject.
- A local paper article about a member of its own community (essentially a "local boy does good/about to do good") is not a source independent of its subject.
- A scout.com profile, which is basically a shell page with basic attributes that are made for all high school football players who receive attention from colleges, is not significant coverage.
- Team awards and a brief mention by a head coach do not constitute notability.
- A mention in the list of the season's team award winners is neither significant nor third party coverage.
- If you have to say It is important to note that Gatena's transfer case is very unique without source or attribution for the claim, then it's probably not that important.
- I find it intellectually dishonest to read the first part of the amateur athlete criterion in WP:ATHLETE and say, "Yay! All Div 1 NCAA football players are in!" and ignore the second part, where the intent of the criterion is clarified.
- Even if we did agree that playing at the highest level of college football did fulfill the requirement for WP:ATHLETE, we should note that Gatena won the USC Service Team Offensive Player of the Year, which indicates he was not a first team regular, so the claim that he played at the sport's highest amateur level becomes debatable. --Mosmof (talk) 20:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - FWIW - I initiated Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Edward Miller for another Southern Cal football of similar notability. I don't see how Gatena is any more notable than Miller, except for the (unsupported and unattributed) claim that his attending three schools during his football career makes him notable. Mosmof (talk) 21:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The fact that Gatena has started for a Division 1 team and has played in almost two dozen Divison one college football games in both the Great West and Pac-10 college football conferences does make him notable. Also other feature stories in sources such as the Daily News and Rivals.com are independent third party sources. How many sources are needed and what is the purpose of a source? All facts in this article are clearly cited by reputable sources. In any academic setting they would serve as sufficient verifiable sources to confirm the facts listed are true. The argument that this article should be deleted, based off of the fact that the sources included in this article which serve to confirm the facts stated, may or may not be significant enough to you is completely bogus. Each source is legitimate. There are other legitimate sources out there not cited in this article and any academic level media search will reveal dozens of legitimate results on this subject.99Legend (talk) 21:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Sorry, but there are no "featured" stories of Gatena cited in the article. A feature story is a "piece of journalistic writing that covers a selected issue in-depth". NONE of those articles sourced cover Gatena in depth. THESE articles are examples of feature stories: [1], [2], and [3]. BlueAg09 (Talk) 21:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I understand what a feature story is, again a search of media databases will reveal feature stories written on this subject [4]. After a search, you will find such articles in sources like The Daily News, Los Angeles Times, California Aggie, Rivals.com, etc.. 99Legend (talk) 21:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Ndenison ^talk 21:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. WP:GNG is more clear--"If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Not all of the sources are "independent" of the subject as Mosmof clearly pointed out. This article fails WP:GNG and should thus be deleted. BlueAg09 (Talk) 21:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- the requirement is significant coverage in reliable independent sources, not that all sources listed must be independent.98.149.104.138 (talk) 21:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Right, but the subject hasn't received any significant coverage from multiple reliable independent sources. --Mosmof (talk) 21:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP: Google searches on this athlete show that many different media outlets have written about him. I dont know much about football, but thats notable enough for me — 99.129.215.193 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 21:27, February 8, 2009 (UTC)..

Keep'’’ –according to the logic presented by wikipedia user Strikehold I believe this individual article meets the WP:Athlete standards and requirements. In my opinion the sources listed are more than credible and this article goes above and beyond most Wikipedia articles in citing sources. This article is really well done, it is well written, well cited, and non-bias. It includes a lot of positive information on the subject but after searching for other information none could be found. I actually think this article could be a model Wikipedia bio article.71.119.123.46 (talk) 21:37, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 56: / Line 56: @@
 ** The fact that Gatena has started for a Division 1 team and has played in almost two dozen Divison one college football games in both the Great West and Pac-10 college football conferences does make him notable. Also other feature stories in sources such as the Daily News and Rivals.com are independent third party sources. How many sources are needed and what is the purpose of a source? All facts in this article are clearly cited by reputable sources. In any academic setting they would serve as sufficient verifiable sources to confirm the facts listed are true. The argument that this article should be deleted, based off of the fact that the sources included in this article which serve to confirm the facts stated, may or may not be significant enough to you is completely bogus. Each source is legitimate. There are other legitimate sources out there not cited in this article and any academic level media search will reveal dozens of legitimate results on this subject.[[User:99Legend|99Legend]] ([[User talk:99Legend|talk]]) 21:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 ***Sorry, but there are no "featured" stories of Gatena cited in the article. A [[feature story]] is a "piece of journalistic writing that covers a selected issue '''in-depth'''". NONE of those articles sourced cover Gatena in depth. THESE articles are examples of feature stories: [http://www.sacbee.com/sports/story/1399922.html], [http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/stewart_mandel/04/18/usc.sanchez/index.html?eref=T1], and [http://www.times-standard.com/ci_11404709]. [[User:BlueAg09|BlueAg09]] ([[User talk:BlueAg09|Talk]]) 21:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
+****I understand what a feature story is, again a search of media databases will reveal feature stories written on this subject [http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=LA&p_theme=ladn&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&s_dispstring=allfields(Steve%20Gatena)%20AND%20date(all)&p_field_advanced-0=&p_text_advanced-0=(%22Steve%20Gatena%22)&xcal_numdocs=20&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no]. After a search, you will find such articles in sources like The Daily News, Los Angeles Times, California Aggie, Rivals.com, etc.. [[User:99Legend|99Legend]] ([[User talk:99Legend|talk]]) 21:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 *'''Delete''' per nom.  [[user:Ndenison|<font style="color:gray;font-family:verdana;font-variant:small-caps">'''Ndenison'''</font>]]&nbsp;<sup>[[user_talk:Ndenison|<font style="color:gray;font-family:verdana;">talk</font>]]</sup> 21:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 *'''Delete'''. [[WP:GNG]] is more clear--"If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are ''independent of the subject'', it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Not all of the sources are "independent" of the subject as Mosmof clearly pointed out. This article fails WP:GNG and should thus be deleted. [[User:BlueAg09|BlueAg09]] ([[User talk:BlueAg09|Talk]]) 21:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)