Talk:University of Atlanta

Notability

See the discussion of this school and its domain at MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist#uofa.edu (permanent link).

This unaccredited, proprietary school appears to be non-notable. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:44, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The article claims that it is accredited. The subject of accreditation is tricky, because there are unrecognized accrediting agencies. The article claims accreditation by the Distance Education and Training Council (DETC). DETC is a recognized accrediting agency according to the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). I found this on the CHEA site: [1]. This is the page on DETC for UofA: [2].

So, UofA is accredited. It isn't a "regional accreditation," it seems, which is apparently the most acceptable kind, but CHEA is clearly reputable and recognized, and it recognizes DETC, which has accredited UofA. We can't say it's "unaccredited." It's a private university, I'm not sure what a "proprietary university" is. It's new, accredited in 2008, but I'd say that accreditation by DETC makes it notable, but that doesn't mean that there is enough material for more than a stub. There are unsourced statements in the article that should be sourced. For some things, the UofA web site might be adequate, but not for recognitions the school has received, etc. The DETC page includes a little information on the school. --Abd (talk) 23:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Accredited by DETC or not, there's still the issue of notability. So far that's not been demonstrated. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

A Google Scholar search found just 4 hits tied to this University of Atlanta in the last 2 years (the others involve faculty from Emory University or the former University of Atlanta. The 4 hits were all associated with Dr. Etienne Barnett, the institution's executive vice-president. A search for Barrington University scholarship turns up just 5 relevant hits over 25 years. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

European Association for Distance Learning

Is there any reason to list this membership? It appears any institution can pay the fee and join the organization. See

• http://www.eadl.org/membership/becomemember.php
• http://www.eadl.org/documents/forms/Application%20form%20-%20Ordinary%20membership%202009.doc

The organization has a Code of Conduct, but there doesn't seem to be any screening, enforcement or accreditation to ensure members follow it:

• http://www.eadl.org/documents/Code%20of%20Conduct%20nov%202005%20edition.pdf

It's not even clear that organization is notable:

• Talk:European Association for Distance Learning

So membership doesn't seem to signify much beyond the school's willingness to pay dues. Do we need it in this article?
--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 05:48, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I also haven't found a reason to list the membership in the EADL. As you note, there appears to be no significance in this membership, and the EADL itself does not seem to be notable. --Orlady (talk) 06:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

You can't join EADL as an "ordinary member" simply by paying a fee, I think the pages were misread by A.B. There are qualifications which must be met. Now, how stringent these are, I have no idea. But EADL isn't an organizational equivalent of a diploma mill.

I'm a little concerned that there may be some agenda here, it was asserted that UofA wasn't accredited, both on this Talk page and with the use of an unaccredited category tag. I don't think that agenda is personal about the school, but rather about the blacklisting and it's being lifted. The original article was promotional, clearly, way outside of what was appropriate. Accreditation, however, is "independent notice," probably more rigorous than ordinary newspaper coverage. Newspaper articles, after all, are sometimes written from press releases with only a little verification. It is not easy to become accredited by a reputable accreditation organization. EADL? They aren't an accreditation organization, but a cooperative association, my guess is that they mostly depend on statements from members without serious (and expensive) verification. But part of the Code of Conduct cited is a complaint process, with documentation, so if an institution were violating standards, they'd be likely to find out and suspend the institution.

Membership in EADL is important for the school because UofA seeks students internationally, being a distance learning institution. My opinion is that it's worthy of mention, but I'll agree that "the only member" was, to a degree, promotional, though it is clearly verifiable.

The notability of EADL may be marginal. I created that article as a stub because I did find that EADL and Distance Education and Training Council were affiliated, plus the UNESCO document recognized them. --Abd (talk) 07:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see what accreditation has to do with the EADL issue. Nor do I see why we are still arguing about the accreditation issue -- I thought that matter was settled? The University of Atlanta does not have regional accreditation but it does have DETC accreditation.

As for EADL membership, all I could find about becoming a member is what I cited above. I see no sign of selectivity in accepting new members. The only real questions are about the size of the organization perhaps because the dues are based on size. Also accreditation - Ordinary Members that are schools must (in most cases) show they've been accredited by an accreditation body in their home country. While it may have DETC accreditation, the University of Atlanta can only be an Associate Member, since "Ordinary Membership" can only be granted to European organizations. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Ordinary membership is open to privately-owned and to non-governmental organisations active in the provision of distance learning in Europe. UofA provides distance learning to students in Europe. They are eligible. As to selectivity, there is this: EADL only accept members with the word “university” in their name and/or the claim that they offer degrees if they complied with local laws concerning higher education, which meant only institutes recognized by the Ministry of Education or accredited by an accrediting body recognized by the Ministry of Education would be eligible for membership.

Now, definitely, membership in EADL doesn't establish notability beyond the accreditation, because, once accredited, the school may, indeed, join by paying the fee, but note that they have pledged, then, to abide by the Code of Conduct of the Association and with the Minimum Standards of Quality for EADL members. This could have legal consequences for the School if it violates those codes (i.e., a student might win a lawsuit as a result, if the school advertised EADL membership, as UofA does, and failed to comply.) Personally, I do find it interesting that they are the only U.S. member of EADL.... I'm sure there are other U.S. schools that have enrolled students from Europe, but they seem to be the only one which is both accredited and has agreed to the Code and Standards and has paid the dues. --Abd (talk) 05:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

History of this institution

It's clear that this school was established in 1991 as Barrington University, became University of Atlanta in 2006 after Barrington ran into trouble (news story from October 2000), operated for a time from the Barrington location in Mobile, and later moved to Atlanta. However, the sources I have found thus far require the historical story to be based either on non-RS sources (primarily online forums) or some original research (specifically synthesis of information from several different sources -- most of which are primary sources). An archive version of the Barrington University website from late 2004 gives the school's founding date as 1991. The DETC indicates that the school was restructured in 2006. In 2006 the University of Atlanta website was established, listing an address that is the same as the last address used by Barrington University (Contact page, archived in July 2006). (In February 2006 the University of Atlanta website still was titled "Barrington University", as indicated on this archive page.) As of December 2007, the school was still in Mobile (web archive), but by the time it was accredited in 2008 it was apparently using an Atlanta address. --Orlady (talk) 06:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

It was my understanding from these non-reliable sources (which I did review) that Barrington began the accreditation process, which was completed as UofA. --Abd (talk) 07:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The article on Barrington, the "trouble," resulted from a change of ownership that wasn't filed with the state. If they were moving out of the state, it's not clear what this would mean! --Abd (talk) 16:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Is it me, but is this 'trouble' and change of name starting to give notability to this article? --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 16:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting background on Barrington through 2005 as well as sad commentary on DETC:

• http://forums.degreeinfo.com/archive/index.php/t-20559.html

Not a reliable source, however, for the article. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

This could be verified: Barrington University has been on the DETC New Applicant list since January, 2005. So they took over three years! I don't see "sad commentary on DETC," but some sad commentary on misunderstandings about DETC. --Abd (talk) 18:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

A similar exchange from 2008; the second to last post is especially poignant:

• http://www.degreediscussion.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5627

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that "poignant" is the word I'd use. It closes with "just an opinion." The complaint being made is that valueless PhDs will be recognized. This really has nothing to do with this article. For starters, UofA doesn't offer doctoral degrees. --Abd (talk) 18:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

2003 Rutland Herald article

I shelled out US$2.95 and bought a copy of the article; relevant excerpts:

"The only diploma mill known to set up shop in Vermont was in 1995 when an organization calling itself Barrington College, and claiming a Burlington address, began offering distance-learning degrees. The school had no state approval and upon investigation its physical campus turned out to be a rented post office box."

"After being sued by the state of Vermont for fraud, Barrington College moved to Alabama and continues to offer $4,450 degrees with generous credit for life and work experience. It is a crime for an unaccredited school to offer degrees in Vermont, but not in every state."

• Harkness, Seth (2003-01-23). "Internet 'colleges' offer no-study diplomas for price". Rutland Herald. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

I can provide a copy if there are any questions. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Barrington was, as noted, a "distance learning" "college." There are plenty of allegations you can find on sites where such matters are discussed, and there is some tendency to call any school that doesn't have accreditation a "diploma mill." It might be, it might not be, but there do seem to have been students who actually studied subjects. DETC lists the founding date for UofA as 1991; clearly they knew about Barrington (founded in 1991); what I've read on the discussion sites is that Barrington applied for accreditation, it's not clear when. DETC puts up lists of applications, it might be possible to find it, if anyone is so exercised. Internet Archive? What is "generous credit"? How much can a school legitimately provide credit toward a degree from "life and work experience"? How much proof do they require? What remaining requirements must be met? Exam? Basically, the information in the newspaper article does little more than make accusations. A.B., I'd like a scan of the article, if possible.

Regardless, that was then and this is now. University of Atlanta, however it got there, is accredited, and I don't see any offers of degrees for payment.

I have, in the past, been mostly looking for information on the University of Atlanta. However, there is a lot more information about Barrington University. I see below that someone who hasn't signed yet (A. B.?) has picked up the same I found. Now, if we can find RS on the linkage between Barrington University and University of Atlanta, we then have much more reliable source for the article! Yumm! Scandal! However, it might be better to have an article on Barrington University, if possible, and have UofA, which does seem to have new owners and a rather new attitude, as a separate article. Or a section in this article about Barrington, and a redirect from Barrington University to this article. Whatever. --Abd (talk) 16:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

South Florida Business Journal articles

• "Alabama officials are threatening to revoke the license of Barrington University, the flagship school of Virtual Academics.Com (OTC BB: VADC) of Boca Raton."
• "When a state inspector checked, Barrington University also had moved out of its listed headquarters at A&S Answering & Secretarial in Mobile."

• Duggan, Ed (2000-10-27). "Alabama threatens to pull university license". South Florida Business Journal. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

• "Boca Raton-based Virtual Academics (OTC BB: CNUO) said it has changed its name to Cenuco and ticker symbol from 'VADC' to 'CNUO.'"
• "The company said its board and the majority of its shareholders approved the name change because it better reflects the company's change in business focus from distance learning to wireless solutions for the security, real estate and insurance markets. Cenuco said, however, it will maintain a presence in distance learning and plans to expand its online learning programs in the environment, innovation, health sciences and nutrition."

• "Virtual Academics now Cenuco". South Florida Business Journal. 2003-01-02. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

• "Company literature described the chairman as having a doctorate and masters degrees, but he has neither."
• "The university accredition service touted by the company doesn't have offices at addresses given in Switzerland and Washington, D.C., but a search found it was incorporated in Florida by a group that includes Virtual Academics' chairman."
• "Chinese professors and schools get a commission selling degree programs to some of Virtual Academic's students."

• Duggan, Ed (2000-10-13). "Reality check for Virtual Academics.com". South Florida Business Journal. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

• "The company's independent accreditation company listed offices in Switzerland and Washington, D.C., but a reporter couldn't find any evidence they existed. He did find IAUS had been incorporated as a for-profit corporation in Florida by Virtual Academics Chairman Robert Bettinger and others. It was dissolved by the state for non-payment of annual dues." (IAUS was the organization they claimed accreditation from back then)

• "Virtual whatever". South Florida Business Journal. 2007-10-20. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

• "The company changed its name from Virtual Academics when it decided to focus on high-tech wireless products. But that focus came after it was discovered the company had set up its own accrediting agency. Robert, a former high school physical education teacher, also claimed master's and doctorate degrees - which he never earned. The refocus was prompted after an offshore scandal and a major fall-off in enrollments when Chinese professors revealed they were paid handsome commissions for signing up their students for automatically issued, joint-American degrees."

• "Time to shuffle the deck and pick 2003's turkeys". South Florida Business Journal. 11-21-2003. Retrieved 2009-03-04. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

unsigned comment added by User:A. B., 16:20, 4 March 2009. --Abd (talk) 17:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

And there is this

• A Sarasota company has expanded its presence in the online education market with the acquisition of a holding company that owns an online university. Sloan Electronics Inc. has agreed to buy IEG Holdings Inc., owner of Barrington University. Sloan said Barrington has about 1,000 students registered for its online degree courses, including an MBA course. Terms of the acquisition were not released.Tampa Bay Business Journal, March 17, 1999

• Sloan Electronics Inc. is working on acquiring an electronic publishing company and has signed a deal to be the exclusive provider of online distance education for an entire Chinese province. The Sarasota company said it is trying to buy RTI Global Inc., a provider of electronic publishing services with more than $1.75 million in annual revenues. Sloan also said its Barrington University online education subsidiary signed an agreement with Hubei Province, China, to provide distance education services to the province's 77 million people. Barrington will provide online courses in English and Chinese for Hubei University.Tampa Bay Business Journal, March 24, 1999

What's really needed is to tie this to University of Atlanta. UofA is apparently a legitimate school. From the articles, Barrington had 1000 students enrolled then, may have had more when the current owners of UofA bought Barrington's assets, if that is what happened. By the way, lest anyone jump to the conclusions, the large majority of DETC accredited schools are closely held corporations. It's a business, and that it's a business doesn't make it illegitimate. However, lying about credentials, selling diplomas (if the reports about China are true), etc., is another matter. Whatever happened then, UofA managed to rise above it, or else they would not have been accreditation. In order to apply, the school had to be running for two years prior to application. So Barrington/UofA must have cleaned up their act some time back. There were changes in ownership, I think more than one. So somebody eventually bought it who is apparently running it more or less properly, except maybe the little detail of possibly hiring an SEO, which is just plain stupid in this case. Not everyone in business would realize that, obviously, or the SEOs would be out of business. --Abd (talk) 17:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

The DETC's contact data and address for the University of Atlanta are the same as Barrington used elsewhere.

Also, I would say "legitimate" can mean many things. They are legal now that they have DETC recognition but DETC accreditation is not a hard currency and it appears to be getting weaker every year. The DETC was favored by the Republicans who received substantial contributions from its members; the current Washington climate may put some heat on DETC to crack down. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

2004 sale to a company run by Akber Mithani

• "THIS AGREEMENT is made this 30 day of September, 2004, by and between CENUCO, INC., a Delaware Corporation and Barrington University, Inc., an Alabama Corporation (collectively "Seller") and Rarefied, LLC, a Georgia limited liability company ("Buyer")."
• "PURCHASE PRICE. The basic consideration to be paid by the Buyer to Seller for the purchase of the assets of the business shall be One Million ($1,000,000) Dollars." (adjustable retroactively under certain conditions)
• "Seller Financing. Buyer shall execute a Promissory Note in the amount of Seven Hundred Thousand ($700,000) Dollars"
• "Buyer agrees to offer employment to the two (2) full-time Barrington University employees located in Alabama and two (2) full-time Barrington University employees located in the Boca Raton office immediately after closing" (big faculty!)

• "[[Form 8k]] filed with the U.S. [[Securities and Exchange Commission]]". Cenuco, Inc. Retrieved 2009-03-04. {{cite web}}: URL–wikilink conflict (help)

Something about the {{cite web}} template doesn't properly handle the ref I just added. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

.... hmmm. I'm not personally adverse to a little original research, if it is very solid and we can agree on it. A. B., your comment about faculty doesn't consider how this school works. There is on-site staff, and then there is faculty, and the two are not the same. The Seller was protecting the on-site staff, which is actually a nice thing to do. With a school like this, I expect that the faculty are not regular employees, they are probably independent contractors. So this establishes purchase by Rarefied, LLC, in 2004, and connection with the present officers, the Mithani brothers --Abd (talk) 17:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Sister school's difficulties

• "Some former students of an Arlington business school are suing the institution, claiming that administrators misled them about their chances of getting jobs, the qualifications of faculty and whether their credits would transfer to other schools. The target of the lawsuit, Iverson Business School and Court Reporting…"

• "Former students sue business school, saying they were misled". Fort Worth Star-Telegram. 2008-02-15. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

• "Iverson, they discovered, is not recognized by the National Board of Surgical Technology. As a result, they would not even be allowed to take qualifying exams required of surgical technicians. The credits earned at Iverson do not transfer to junior colleges or universities."
• "Iverson's Chief Operation Officer, who is based near Atlanta, declined an on camera interview with News 8."

• Harris, Byron. "Arlington school leaves students in debt with worthless qualification". WFAA-TV. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by A. B. (talk • contribs) 17:10, 4 March 2009

We'd need much more to be able to use this. It's not at all clear what these stories mean. Former students make claim. Were they misled? What happened to the case? Iverson is accredited, with Council on Occupational Education, which accreditation might very well not allow "transfer to junior colleges or universities," it's an "occupational school." Not an academic college or university. So the lawsuit depends on whether or not the students were misled.

Iverson was accredited in 1988. I don't see anything on their web site that would indicate training as surgical technicians. [3] Nor are there any programs which I'd expect to create transferable academic credits.

Alex Mithani is President. But that doesn't make them "sister schools," the programs are very different, and the accreditation is very different.

DETC

• "Regional Accreditation: It’s the gold standard. Many employers demand regional accreditation."

• Wellen, Alex (2006-07-30). "Seals of Approval". The New York Times. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

This article starts off with problems students at a similar school face, then goes on to give a broader discussion of DETC accreditation.

• "The problem is that Columbia Southern is accredited by the national Distance Education and Training Council, not the regional accreditation agency for its headquarters in Alabama, the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools. Even though the Education Department recognizes the distance-education council, many traditional institutions don't trust it and other national accrediting agencies, and so refuse to accept course credits from nationally accredited online institutions."

• Carnevale, Dan (2002-10-18). "Missed Connections: Online colleges complain about traditional institutions' tough credit-transfer policies". The Chronicle of Higher Education. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

• "National institutional accreditation is conferred to schools by organizations such as the Distance Education and Training Council (DETC) and the Accrediting Council for Independent Colleges and Schools (ACICS). Although DETC and ACICS are valid national accreditations, their acceptance is not as universal as regional institutional accreditation and may represent a small risk."

• Aumann, Ron (2006-04-01). "Dubious degrees: organizations can avoid negative press by ensuring new employees have valid academic credentials". Internal Auditor. Institute of Internal Auditors. Retrieved 2009-03-04.

Also:

• "In 2001, a university technology consortium took over management of the suffix and expanded eligibility to Phoenix and other community colleges, which are accredited by the same six regional accreditation agencies as four-year institutions. The technology consortium, Educause, then recommended further changes to include schools approved by the 28 specialty accreditation organizations recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. These include the Distance Education and Training Council, as well as the Midwifery Education Accreditation Council and the American Board of Funeral Service Education."

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Subsequently expanded --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Please discuss DETC at the DETC article. The whole issue of regional vs national accreditation is a complicated one; there is some material at the DETC web site on this. DETC claims that 70% of its students who attempt credit transfer succeed at it, and they recommend, if it matters to the student, that the student determine first if they will be able to transfer credits from the school they are considering to the school they are considering for more advanced work. Legally, and solidly, UofA is accredited. A. B., you started this by claiming that UofA wasn't accredited, and you added the unaccredited category to the article. Now, what are you doing? There is an article on Educational accreditation. Does that article need the source you found? --Abd (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2009 (UTC)