Talk:Renaissance humanism

Old stuff

Um... Why did someone come in and remove the cleanup notice? Not only that, they removed my note here that I would clean it up as well as the reminder on my talk page to do that cleanup. The only reason I can think of is that the person wrote the messy article and resents the fact that is needs to be cleaned. Well, I'm going to clean it anyway. uriah923^(talk) 04:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Reorganization

The reorganization and content addition has been made. Roll up! uriah923^(talk) 06:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

History

If it started in the 1390s or so, why does the history start in the 1480s?

The throwaway line at the end of the history section (~led to hatred of all humans~) is very bothersome. There's no justification, evidence, or explanation. Considering that this statement claims a complete reversal in what I understand as the basic principles of humanism, I'd like to know where the author got this from.

It was graffiti added 20:53, 24 August 2006 by User:70.118.244.113. It has now been removed. This article bears closer watching. --Wetman 20:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a simple question. If Renaissance Humanism began in the late 14th century, why is there a picture entitled "Petrarch's Virgil" dated 1336 at the top? [knab69] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knab69 (talk • contribs) 05:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC) This article needs citations so that we can weigh arguments and evidence. [knab69] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.126.201 (talk) 07:13, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I also have a question - did humanism address burning people at the stake or other forms of execution for heresy or other crimes against the prevailing religion? Does it now? YAC (talk) 01:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Template Errors

I'm getting this ugly error in the infobox...

Error creating thumbnail: convert: unable to open image `/mnt/upload3/wikipedia/en/c/cd/Humanism.png': No such file or directory.

can't figure out how to fix. those who can please do --Davidkazuhiro 23:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

did the europeans know about chamelons? i thought that they were in south america or something....

````

You mean chameleons? Why do you ask? Unfree (talk) 04:54, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The Epicurean

Did Erasmus ever write a book called the Epicurean? Why is not mentioned in the article it links to? Chileiceman 21:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Choice of Illustration

Why use an illustration of Petrarch from the 13th century for this article? Why not use a Renaissance painting, like the School of Athens? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.183.88.75 (talk) 16:44, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Because Petrarch was a key early humanist, which unfortunately the article does not yet make clear. Johnbod (talk) 16:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Virgil

"...Virgil, who was emerging from the persona as a magus that had accrued in the Middle Ages." Huh? What does it mean to emerge from the persona? Is it anything like emerging from a building? To me, a magus is exactly the same as a magician. How can a magician "accrue"? To accrue is to accumulate, isn't it? What was accrued? (I know that "that" is often used to refer to a person, but I prefer "who".) Unfree (talk) 04:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The persona had accrued, and emerged. Some re-phrasing might be in order I suppose, but it makes sense to me as it is. Johnbod (talk) 16:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The Core Meaning of Humanism: Debate / Vote

Of interest to editors and readers of this page: There is a debate on the core meaning of humanism (the lead Wikipedia article on humanism as such) going on its Talk Page(https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Talk:Humanism ). I've argued that the core article should be broader than what is now described in the opening paragraph. The philosophical version of humanism should not pre-empt the core article on humanism as such, as the term humanism has a long history and is still used today in many senses, often including those that are more positive to religious belief than systematic philosophical secular humanism is. Wikipedia's lead article on this topic should be closer in line with authorities like the Encyclopedia Britannica and the OED's 4th meaning: "Devotion to those studies which promote human culture; literary culture; esp. the system of the Humanists, the study of the Roman and Greek classics which came into vogue at the Renascence." This definition indicates that humanism often suggests the formation of the individual through cultural, particularly literary means. Humanism in this sense cannot be limited to Renaissance Humanism. For example, there is Confucian humanism, Christian humanism, 12th-century renaissance humanism, Matthew Arnold's humanism, and so on. Please consider reading the arguments on the humanism article's talk page and voting in the proposal to move the current article on humanism to "Humanism (Philosophy)" so that another page on the core meaning of humanism may be started, keeping a link to this page as a description of one of the main manifestations of humanism. Wilson Delgado (talk) 14:34, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

For reference: The opening paragraph that I find so misleading now reads: "Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appealing to universal human qualities, particularly rationality. It is a component of a variety of more specific philosophical systems and has been incorporated into several religious schools of thought. Humanism can be considered as a process by which truth and morality is sought through human investigation. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on belief without reason, the supernatural, or texts of allegedly divine origin. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of the human condition, suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial." Wilson Delgado (talk) 14:40, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Neo-Platonism & Hermeticism

There are so many problems here I hardly know where to begin. First, Renaissance Neo-Platonism and Hermeticism are seperated from Theosophy and New Age by centuries and numerous intervening developments. Moreover Theosophy and New Age are only two heirs to Neo-Platonism and Hermeticism (and study of Kabbalah) of the Renaissance. It would be much simpler and more inclusive to replace "Theosophy and New Age" with "Western esotericism", a category that includes such disparate phenomena as ritual magic and secret societies and individuals like Crowley, John Dee and Agrippa. Second, it mostly ignores developments outside of Italy. Many individuals in Germany (Paracelsus, Trithemius, Agrippa) were influenced directly by Italian humanists, and others indirectly throughout Europe. This may be a problem with the article as a whole, but I am not knowledgeable enough to make this claim. Third, without better context from the cited source the phrases "intellectual dead-end" and "fringe" appear to be unsubstantiated value judgments rather than NPOV statements of facts. I've amended the phrasing to be more neutral. 70.144.30.122 (talk) 03:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, you are rewriting referenced material, & I will have to check what the reference says - I don't recall Sir Jack being very polite about the modern descendents (& of course other sources can be found). Secondly the article now linked to is an odd and hopelessly vague effort - I think the others are really more use to readers, and New Age is even more inclusive. The "centuries and numerous intervening developments" are implied, I think. By all means some German names can be added to the short list. And we use UK spelling here I think. Johnbod (talk) 04:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

The Esotericism article does need work, to be sure, but I wouldn't call it hopeless. Esotericism is more appropriate in this context because it is a category used by scholars and has a much more concrete definition (per Faivre). As a category has a significant degree of overlap with Esotericism, but they are not one in the same. Theosophy was one thrust within esotericism in the late 19th Century that combined Western and Eastern elements into a distinct new movement (though Theosophists would dispute its newness). Other movements developed during the same time that are categorized as esoteric that did not have mutual influence with Theosophy such as Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Ordo Templi Orientis as well as the continuance of others like Freemasonry. New Age started in the 1960s and burrowed from Theosophy, esotericism and other sources. To some extent all of the above have been influenced by the Neo-Platonism of the Renaissance, but some more directly than others. 70.144.30.122 (talk) 19:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)