Talk:Criticism of evolutionary psychology: Difference between revisions

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Should this page even exist?

I just don't think Wikipedia is the place for a point/counterpoint type discussion. It's one thing to point out, in the context of the article itself, that there is substantial criticism. It's a whole other issue to actually create an entry devoted to the debate. I mean, what's next, Is Snopes Evil or is he Good (yes, I know Template:Spoiler this has been settled in the last book, but you know what I mean). 196.205.127.16 02:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Criticisms from other fields of evolution and human behavior

Should this article include criticisms of evolutionary psychology from other fields of evolution and human behavior? Other fields could include:

EPM 00:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is the least neutral page I've seen on Wikipedia. It doesn't even begin to cover all of EP's shortcomings and makes it appear as if every single criticism against EP has been conquered! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.77.255.204 (talk) 21:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tempted to Delete

This page is ridiculous. It's like a huge evolutionary psychology apologia. Most of the criticisms are either unsourced or strawmen versions of the real arguments. A lot of the claims about the nature of the debate are unsourced, along with some of the rebuttals. Not to mention that pages like this shouldn't even exist in Wikipedia to begin with, it should be integrated into the article on evolutionary psychology (and no, I don't care if "it's hard.") The additional resources for people interested in the criticisms is buried far below the resources for the rebuttals, and is quite small. I think that betrays the obvious purpose of this page. I'll be fixing that for now (since it's odd for the counter-arguments to precede the arguments, and for the arguments themselves to be buried below the notes.) Vesperal 22:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After reading through the article again, I also saw plenty of problems with the criticisms, so I went through and tagged all the unsourced claims. I'm no longer sure what this page is supposed to be for. I put up an original research and expert needed tag, since contrary to my first impression, this articles appears to just be forum chatter that's spilled over into Wikipedia. Vesperal 23:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In total agreement - article is slanted to the point of being ridiculous. I wonder if pages on phrenology would be like this if that science was still fashionable?

The criticisms section was moved to its own page from the main EP article for good reason

See the "talk" section of the main EP article. Critics of EP were turning the main EP article into a debate, and making content edits that mis-characterized the field. Rather than engage in continual edit wars, better that it be moved here so both sides can make their best case, and hash it out. I disagree with Vesperal's comment above (but don't find it surprising given that in his user profile he quotes a critic of EP). Memills 05:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please sign your posts. If the information I tagged can be found in any "intro evol psych book" then please go get one and source the statements. I also still think that this debate (at least some of it) should eventually be moved back into the main article once it gets cleaned up a bit.Vesperal 23:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I only retagged one statement: "EP fully accepts nature-nurture interactionism." Although I'm pretty sure this is true, I'd still like to see this sourced.Vesperal 23:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vesperal -- for a good overview of EP see the EP FAQ by Ed Hagan: http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/evpsychfaq.html

as well as his paper "Controversies surrounding evolutionary psychology"

http://itb.biologie.hu-berlin.de/~hagen/papers/Controversies.pdf I'll try to add more refs soon. Memills 05:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Structure of the Article and Bias

I think having this page is a good idea. However, the structure of the article seems to give the appearance of a bias towards evolutionary psychology. Specifically, I'm referring to how there's a criticism of EP, followed by a rebuttal, followed by the next criticism, followed by the next rebuttal, and so forth. In this article, EP gets "the last word". I think it's a good idea to have this page, since EP is so controversial, but I'm not quite sure what would be the best way to structure it. EPM 21:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article actually leads like a one of the arguments from Aquinas (whose method I hope I can discuss without being accused of bias against this article), wherein he starts with a question, then sets forth first a statement that answers the question in the opposite way from what he thinks (for example, to the question, "Does God exist?" he starts with "It would seem that God does not exist, because..."). Then he makes his real argument, where he says what he really thinks ("I the contrary, I assert that..."). The point is that, in this method, the first argument is set up to fail, and the counter-argument always looks better, especially since it has the final word. This method may be very effective in proving a point, but an encyclopedia article is meant to provide unbiased information---nor do I think the question of the validity of Evolutionary Psychology so completely undisputed that one can say, "Well, this is what science has proven, whether you like it or not." Corbmobile (talk) 22:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Affirm Above-mentioned Criticisms

This article is a particularly fine example of how wikipedia can be misleading – a complex topic like this requires the efforts of an expert (not just in the science but in encyclopaedic writing) – perhaps luckily, it seemed clear to me that no such person has contributed here before I invested time in reading it...

A quick glance reveals what is to all appearances a systemic bias.

An article about the criticisms of something shouldn't list them and then purport to debunk each one – it smacks of one-sidedness (what's more, it serves to diminish a casual reader's initial interest in the topic).

Consider that if, in reality, all such criticisms have been so thoroughly dealt with, there is no 'controversy' and hence no real requirement for this article in the first place!

Rewrite or restructure it in the form of an encyclopaedic article if it is to be taken at all seriously as such.

Fixbot (talk) 23:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Slant

As Fixbot says above, "An article about the criticisms of something shouldn't list them and then purport to debunk each one – it smacks of one-sidedness", is absolutely correct. Comments? Chet Ubetcha (talk) 06:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As of September '8, this the format lays out the dimensions of the controversy well - criticisms are outlined, followed by some limiting counter-criticism. The structure doesn't suggest (to me, at least) that the counter-criticisms are conclusions, just because they come last. Baadog (talk) 12:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merger

The two articles are each rather long. If they are merged the new article will be too long for some computers to handle. Then there will be pressure to split the article or to delete large sections of the content. Am I being paranoid? Could there be a conspiracy by opponents of evolution/evolutionary psychology to sabotage part of the articles?Barbara Shack (talk) 17:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I would like to see them merged is that the EP main article makes short shrift of the very real criticisms, whereas the EPC page is written inappropriately and is overlong. EP is controversial within the scientific community, unlike, evolutionary biology. Chet Ubetcha (talk) 18:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Controversies page should remain a separate page

The main EP page should be about EP -- what it is. Historically, anti-EP folks have previously attempted to turn the main page into a political critique of the field. And, many of them have had a very meager understanding of the field.

It is significant that those here who promote a merger complain about bias, however, none of them contribute to the content of the article itself. If they have something useful to contribute re criticisms of the field, then do so. And, then let the other side state their counterarguments. This is an excellent way for readers to assess both sides of the controversy and to arrive at their own judgments.

There is a great deal of misinformation / disinformation about EP. This page helps to list the arguments pro and con. In addition, there are those who fall into the trap of the naturalistic fallacy and/or moralistic fallacy who simply misunderstand the field, and who may have essentially political, rather than scientific motivations. Memills (talk) 06:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would not quibble about the existence of a separate page. I am indeed no expert on biology, psychology, but I am a high school English teacher, if that counts for anything, and I think I can tell when the structure of something is meant to support one point or another. As it stands, this article seems to be supporting the conclusion that EP is valid and that the criticisms of it are not. If the scientific community at large has come to this conclusion, then this whole section ought not to exist or at least to be so long.

The only thing I would suggest is that the article be trimmed down and the "criticism" "counter-criticism" format scrapped for something else...I really have no idea, maybe something like an essay, at least something different than always letting EP get the final word. Again, if the scientific community thinks those who object to EP such triflers as they seem here, then there really isn't any need for this page to exist at all. Corbmobile (talk) 05:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the critics of EP are scientists. The controversy is real, unlike the manufactured controversy about evolution. Chet Ubetcha (talk) 21:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have to ask yourself, "Why are laypeople and respected scientists anti-EP?" Chet Ubetcha (talk) 04:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All I really asked for were references. For example, the counter-argument about EP being Ethnocentric is completely unsourced and written in a very informal way. The counter-argument to Reification is also completely unsourced and frankly looks like OR. The response to the "is-ought" criticism amounts to "no they don't". I don't really care for the idea of merging, but I would rather this article didn't look like an internet forum argument that spilled over into Wikipedia. This isn't my area of expertise, so I don't have sources on hand to fix either side of the argument. I think removing the "criticism" and "counter-argument" headers would help. It would also force the use of sources, since you would need them in order to write a coherent paragraph. No one could vaguely refer to "Evolutionary Psychologists" or "Critics". And I would still like to see more of this in the main EP article.Vesperal (talk) 04:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of the counter-arguments seem to be "No they don't" or "they shouldn't". I shortened one such in the Ethnocentricism section. Presumably the critics (one of which is cited and quoted) are pointing to the specific studies that they claim are culturally limited. Pointing out that some researchers compare cultures so eliminate ethnocentricism does little to counter the general criticism that the field in general often fials to do so. It needs a general reponse that says good quality theories do not do this, or that EP should not do this. The criticisms are not only about what EP aims to do, but also about the sloppy methods some researchers use.Dillypickle (talk) 14:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion for critics of EP: Please make substantive contributions

There are a few of the same folks who keep re-appearing on this page who clearly have an ax to grind with EP. Their approach seems to be to repeatedly tag the page as in dispute, or complain about the structure of the article or the rebuttals to criticisms, yet they do not make substantive contributions to the page. Please, if you wish to contribute, take the time to do the background reading, and then make worthwhile contributions. If an argument can be improved, do so. If there is a missing reference, find one.

As a professor with a specialization in EP, I can tell you that those of us in this field have thoroughly evaluated the criticisms -- and many of them are either uninformed mis/dis-information about EP, or they are simply straw men (i.e., arguments that suggest that evolutionary psychologist believe something that they do not). It doesn't help the critics' case when it is clear that they have little knowledge of the field. However, we are certainly willing to review and seriously consider informed criticism, and we encourage its discussion here. Memills (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A few points:

1) I don't have an ax to grind with anyone. I'm sorry you feel that way. I actually appreciate the link you posted above, it cleared a lot up for me.

2) The paragraphs I discussed above were singled out for their vagueness. Are you seriously suggesting that I wade through years of the vast bulk of EP literature to find an argument similar to the one under Reification, for instance? The person who added it should come back and reference it, or someone who is familiar with the argument should add the reference. I have no freaking clue and wouldn't even know where to start.

3) It doesn't matter if the criticisms are good. They just need to be notable criticisms and referenced. Many criticisms of EP are complete nonsense, but they should still be addressed, given the ruckus they tend to stir up.

4) "Thorough evaluation of the criticisms" is great and all, but not if it isn't on this page and it isn't referenced. If these evaluations extended beyond coffee house banter and into actual published material, then it needs to be in the article.

5) There may be some concern with the fact that I am criticizing and article on a topic that I am clearly uninformed about. I would just like to remind everyone, that as an uninformed reader, I am the target audience of this article. If it isn't encyclopedic enough for people like me, then we have a problem.

6) Memills is no doubt getting frustrated being, effectively, the only contributor to this article. I'm sure he has better things to do with his time than safe guard this article and listen to people whine on the talk pages. We need to find some way to draw in more people who understand the science of EP and people who are actually critics of EP.

7) I'm going to be bold and change the structure of the article myself, since that is something I can do. Vesperal (talk) 03:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, all done. I removed the "criticism" and "rebuttal" headings and evened out some of the language to make it clear within the section when a point and counter-point was being made. Added some {{Fact}} and an ^{[original research?]} tag (see my 6 March 2008 comment on why). One problem I noticed is that the Criticism section on the Sociobiology page seems to be nothing but a link to this page. Not sure what to do about that since this is almost all new research being talked about, I sure don't want to get into an edit war at that page. I'm happier with how the page looks anyway. Suggestions welcome on how to solve the problem of the lack of contributors.Vesperal (talk) 04:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the "counter argument" headings. I have no particular opinion on EP (i have a biology degree, and have just started my first module of psych for fun), but these headings just made this article needlessly argumentative. Also some of the "arguments" didn't really address the others points, so it seemed more like a discussion to me, which flows far better as prose without seperating paragraphs into pro and anti. If the reader has to be told that a sentence is a counterpoint, then it probably isn't - this would be obvious from the text itself, and the ideas therein.Dillypickle (talk) 10:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for criticism of EP

Here's one: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/PoE/pe15socl.html#sclscblgy. GregorB (talk) 16:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 16: / Line 16: @@
 After reading through the article again, I also saw plenty of problems with the criticisms, so I went through and tagged all the unsourced claims. I'm no longer sure what this page is supposed to be for. I put up an original research and expert needed tag, since contrary to my first impression, this articles appears to just be forum chatter that's spilled over into Wikipedia. [[User:Lynden Price|Vesperal]] 23:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
+In total agreement - article is slanted to the point of being ridiculous. I wonder if pages on phrenology would be like this if that science was still fashionable?
 ==The criticisms section was moved to its own page from the main EP article for good reason==