Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming

• Archive #1 - Pre-October 2005
• Archive #2 - October Disputes
• Archive #3 - Mediated Disputes 1
• Archive #4 - Mediated Disputes 2
• Archive #5 - 3 November 2005 through 13 November 2005
• Archive #6 - 13 November 2005 through 25 November 2005

Seperation of NLP from Criticisms, reducing redundancy, etc

Oh joy, Christmas is on its way. I have just started removing early critters from the NLP bible and looking at making brief. I noticed that science still gets a great deal less air time and weight than the NLP section. I'm sure that will please the babblers. Whatever, lets see what we can do about condensing things. I removed the NLP for coppers section. It could be reduced to a line and placed somewhere else (perhaps in the outrageous claims section:). Cheers DaveRight 03:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is beginning to look more organized and encyclopedic. I removed some more criticisms from the upper section, and placed some of those into the criticism section. It can be made a lot more concise with a bit of work.Bookmain 04:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Well done chaps. Looks like we'll have it back in shape in no time. Gave it the once-over and nipped out some repeats. Keep up the good work. AliceDeGrey 09:51, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I've made some content preserving changes to the introduction and overview. Some of the grammar was poor and the expression awkward. Some attributions are required for the the material in the overview, eg. foundational assumptions, brain lateralization. Can the person that originally inserted that copy add some citations? flavius 15:28, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

There is a thread on Whispering discussion about eye movements and brain contralateralisation, [1]. There are some references there. --Comaze 00:23, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes Flavius. The content is worth preserving. When it is foreshortened it tends to be denied by NLP promoters: "they didn't say that!" and they delete. Looks fine to me. HeadleyDown 16:33, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree it is far better when seperated like it is. I don't wish to assume bad faith, but the history of this article shows extreme promotion by NLP people. On top of NLP blowing its own trumpet throughout the literature will make for a very promotional NLP section and there is not much we can do about that apart from point out the obvious bias of fans. NLP fans also seem to consider themselves persuasive, and they think they can reframe the article to suit themselves and do some kind of magic to make everything seem great. Of course the article will simply be balanced out using criticism. I don't think there will be a problem with that though, as long as mediators understand that the pro and con will definitely be quite a contrast. But it is a natural effect of NLP with its intrinsic hype, and the harsh words that science has to say about that (science doesn't like that sort of thing). As long as the article is kept within a reasonable size, and the NLP promoters keep the views open and do not whitewash, I think things will be a lot easier from now. JC

I have reworked the section titled 'Basic Tenets'. These were a mix of tenets and techniques so I renamed it 'Fundamentals' and re-cast the behavioral cues in terms of Dilts' B.A.G.E.L model. I think it reads clearer now. flavius 13:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Sure, Flavius. That is clear. I notice Dilt's BAGEL model is also used in literature with Bandler and others. Obviously it is about the most important and recognizable background model, or fundament as you quite clearly call it. It also points out the kind of conceptualizations they use throughout. Regards HeadleyDown 15:26, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Where is the discussion regarding the disputed protions of the 'Overview'. The foundational assumptions appear accurate (I scanned through some of my seminar manuals -- Sikes, James -- and was able to corroborate most of them. Perhaps the problem is that these largely implicit assumptions are not conventionally presented in this format. Admittedly, when the assumptions implicit in NLP are made explicit NLP comes to resemble Dianetics. I suspect that this is the source of any dispute. I can attempt to rework this section, presenting the foundational assumptions in a more NLP idiomatic manner and with citations. Shall I proceed? flavius 03:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Some minor fixes:

• Left/right brain is often referenced, but not usually treated as "central". NLP tends to consider things central which can make a difference, such as VAK, or language. The physical structure of the brain doesn't usually get considered a central theme.
• Removed "however". In this context it implies a POV.
• The overview of NLP doesn't represent it clearly. Minor changes to the wording to clarify the significance of these.
• Moved round wording in "goals". HOW something is done isnt a goal, so removed that bit. And "re-programming" --> "changing" (reporgramming is a POV term and not used within NLP, it's mainly associated with cults).

FT2 04:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I have reorganized a couple of sections - thus made "overview" a section including subsections for engram, brain lateralization, foundations, etc. I think it makes more sense that way when you read the contents. FT2 07:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi FT2. NLP does not receive wide support. Just because it is listed in some associations (alongside primal scream therapy, EFT and other such pseudos) it does not mean wide support. To prove wide support in this case you would probably need to conduct a poll. And the result would be "what's NLP?" or "you must be kidding" etc. Just to keep things equal and easy to handle, it was suggested that we keep a nice free space for NLP promotion, and a place for criticisms. Criticisms does not mean "mixed reviews". It means people do not like these bits about NLP. You already have the associations that support NLP in the promotional sections. If you want to avoid the problems you caused previously, I suggest you start acting cooperatively and just do your thing with writing dubious sections about cognitive awareness etc. HeadleyDown 14:41, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey Headley, I guess FT2 still thinks NLP was conceived by Stephen Pinker and Susan Greenfield, with full benediction from George Lakoff:) If all you have is NLP books on your shelf its going to look like a big subject. Last week I asked a PhD psych and clinical therapist what they thought of NLP. They hadn't heard of it:) I told her it was advertised on the BPS and she said "well they'll advertise anything". FT2 seems to be working with a map generated from hype rather than fact. I liked Sharpley's veiled insult to NLP; It would be like psychoanalysis (a pseudoscience) but it failed the test:) Then he calls it a cult and a fad. Its was a demoted pseudoscience in the 80s. Then came the mass dumping, and now its just a joke certificate like "diploma in phrenology", "O'level in Dianetics Auditing" or "City and Guilds in Physiognomy". Cheers DaveRight 02:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I reworked the 'Foundational Assumptions' sub-section. It began "NLP authors tend to emphasize a focus on obtaining results rather than working with theory" and then proceeded to outline the rudiments of NLP theory. It was also contaiminated with elements of technique and objectives. The stuff about the Meta/Milton Model is redundant and in any event it doesn't belong in a subsection that is supposed to describe the foundational assumptions. Also I created a new section about NLP practitioners stated position on theory and put the relevant text (that was in 'Foundational Assumptions' in there. flavius 05:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I've extended the 'Foundational Assumptions' into a set of basic premises that undergird and distinguish NLP. I don't think its complete and the last two don't appear right. GregA had some ideas about NLPs foundational core. GregA, what do you think? flavius 06:56, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Flavius. It looks much better that way. You may expect the NLP whitewashers will change it back though. I'm glad the article has become more manageable. It also makes it more obvious when FT2 and the other promoters run around in their whitewashing panic. Whatever happens though, there is still a lot more clarification for the criticisms section. I have just got through some interesting stuff from Europe criticising NLP. I'll add when I've more time. ATB AliceDeGrey 07:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Note: I'm still working on the 'Foundational Assumptions' sub-section. I'll complete the citations and extend the list of premises shortly. Bear with me. All premises will preferably be sourced from NLP primary texts and cited properly. flavius 22:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to expand the 'Stated Attitude to Theory' sub-section. Dilts et al (1980) devotes a few pages to distinguishing NLP as a 'model' and not a 'theory'. The terms 'model' and 'theory' are used by Ditls et al (1980) in an idiosyncratic manner entirely inconsistent with their usage within the domains from which they originate (namely science and philosophy of science). Their motivations for this idiosyncracy are a matter of conjecture and potentially POV but its existence is a matter of brute fact. I am considering including an authoritative definition of 'theory' and 'model' alongside Dilts et al's because this matter of NLP being purportedly atheoretical and hence somehow beyond the scope of scientific testing or even meta-theoretical analyses recurs in discussions, seminars and texts. Any opinions?

I propose that the references section be one monolithic (sorted) list for the following reasons: it would make redundancy easier to eliminate and it would prevent it in the future, references would be easier to locate and it is conventional practice. flavius 00:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes Flavius, there don't seem to be any good reasons for Dilts to make the model/theory distinction. Model is often synonymous with theory, so it is dubious to say NLP does not have a theory/theories. Certainly it seems to be there as an excuse. Of course it doesn't work:) It got well and truly tested. I think it may be easy to relate to "asking how rather than why". Again, this is a great cop out. It basically turns every technique into a meaningless ritual. But of course, normal psychological models are there to explain and predict also (they answer why).

Yes, presently the refs are hard work. A simple alphabetical list will make it easier. Regards HeadleyDown 02:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Mind-body split

Hi Flavius. I think one thing to mention would be - mechanism of action . That is something that is left out of NLP. Of course it is just to get people to do what they say. Don't ask why! Some of it has been partially explained though. Dilts does write about left/right eye movement stuff and brain in his encyclopedia. Its still mind myths though. So simplistic! Anyway, both models and theories are supposed to explain mechanisms of action (or there should be literature to do that), but Dilts et al just come up with their false dichotomy because most folk don't know the difference. Actually most folk just hear a lot of jargon and psychobabble and give it a miss altogether. I have to admit though, they fooled me for a while (till I looked up NLP in an encyclopedia "a vaguely defined fringe therapy that proposes 10 minute cures". Cheers DaveRight 03:09, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Grinder (and I've heard Bandler agree) rejects Descartes "original sin -- the mind-body split" (eg. Turtles all the way down, J Grinder & J Delozier 1986 pp.xx,xxi; Whispering, J Grinder & C Bostic St Clair 2002 ch.3; see also, Proposed distinction for NLP articles by Grinder, Bostic St Calir and Robert Dilts) and similarly rejects Cartesian split (Whispering, Grinder J Grinder & C Bostic St Clair 2002 p.222; Steps to ecology of Mind 2005, T Malloy, J Grinder, C Bostic St Clair p.34). --Comaze 06:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Comaze. You saved me some work. flavius 09:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Comaze. I believe DaveRight's mention of lack of mechanism has nothing to do with mind/body split. The fact is, NLP doesn't satisfactorilly deal with mechanisms of action. Indeed the refusal to seperate factors can be considered a holistic notion. The mind/body split could be included in pseudoscience under mantra of holism, and it could also be mentioned under "new age therapies" because it is common with new age notions. Either way it is a simplistic or banal truism - the body influences the mind and mind influences the body. AliceDeGrey 06:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Alice, it's important to document the many (often implicit) assumptions the underlie NLP, even when they patently false or banal. flavius 09:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I think you are right Flavius. Certainly whitewash is not a good idea. We already have NPOV recommendations to write anything factual even if it is objectionable. HeadleyDown 12:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Criticisms are there to criticize and clarify

Comaze and all the other fanatics, (especially FT2). Adding little bits and pieces of non-criticism to the criticism section (actually they are rather large and leading the article towards the 100kb mark) in order to negate it somehow is completely transparently biased behaviour. You will simply get reverted doing so. Presently, the article is in the process of re-organization (within each respective section) and as such, we could do without all the sneaking around deleting conclusive criticisms and replacing them with brainless rambles from NLP excuse literature. Cited or not, those sort of dodgy edits will be booted off the article by me or anyone else with a brain. Just keep it in line with clarification, rather than deleting criticism, or muddying and clouding issues. I am not just picking on you Comaze (though you have spent months sneaking around like this). This also applies to the other desperately unconvincing NLP fanatics. DaveRight 03:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

What definition of criticism are you using? It seems to be different to the typical definition used by wikipedians. Criticism is for critical analysis -- this should be neutral and show all points of view, even if are contradictory to your POV. Your recent reversions are not helpful and seems to expose a bias and selective quoting [2] and [3]. For example, HeadleyDown and DaveRight in unison remove this statement that is intended to clarify the various points of view about NLP use in cults (especially given that cult requires some comparison to orthodoxy). --Comaze 03:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

No Comaze. I am using the proper definition of criticisms. You are using the fanatic's version (non criticism and then excuse). What we have here, is NLP (where all the literature is selfpromotional and full of obscurantisms designed to confuse people) and then we have actual criticisms cited by critics. The article is presently in need of adjustment for brevity, so your additional excuses are not helping at all. Considering your rather extreme history with this and related articles you are going to find it extremely hard for your edits to stick. People know your game, and they will simply revert because you have not changed from the multiple deletion per day for months Comaze. Only your promotion scheme has changed. It is extremely funny to watch your transparently zealous activities:) DaveRight 03:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

What exactly is your definition of criticisms? It seems to differ from the typical wikipedian. How do you explain the removal of a statement that clarifies this biased POV, "other christian ministers advocate the use of NLP (eg. use of sensory-based language [4]) in church services." Other citations were removed at the same time, without discussion or proper comment. --Comaze 03:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello Comaze. You are past your 3revert a day limit. Regarding your edits: The Christian ministry edit is pure promotion, and as such it is not criticism. If you want to promote NLP as a religion, do so in the NLP section. Your edit on metamodel/linguistics is unrelated to what Levelt is talking about. So it should not be there. You also deleted Dave's edits with no proper explanation. AliceDeGrey 04:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Alice, To my knowledge, I have not exceeded 3RR. You response shows a complete disregard for the citations that I presented with page numbers and references. Please check the references, I'm sure you will find that they are directly related. --Comaze 04:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

You are extremely biased, Comaze. I understand that some people can be biased and do neutrally minded editing, but you have just proven that your edits are biased. I looked up the references and you are presenting unrelated information in order to cloud the issues. The article should be concise and clear, and you are going the other way. What's more, Carroll does not even mention the word "universally". Carroll makes a specific statement, and you want to change it to make it mean something else. I do not care if you present 1000 citations with page numbers. Your extreme bias towards promotion is clearly highlighted by your today's devious actions. AliceDeGrey 04:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Let's get to the real issue here. You (HeadleyDown, Dave Right, AliceDeGrey) have removed statements exposing a systemic bias between this group of editors. Calling something a cult is pure POV so it needs to be covered from multiple points of view. Normally "cults" requires comparison between existing orthodox. According to wikipedia, scientists resolve this problem by referring to cults as "New Religious Movement" (NRM). The term cult is not well-defined or has multiple conflicting definition depending on who you ask. So if you take the definition of Christian Orthodox or other Orthodox religion then you can quote them. Some Christian ministers use NLP in their services and other apply it in Christian counselling -- these people do not consider NLP techniques to be cult-like. Some strict orthodox organisations may consider using sensory-based language, hypnotic language or other NLP techniques to be cult-like, I don't know -- if this is the case, cite your sources. An NLP modeler may be able to find many language patterns in sermons and christian counselling and maybe even the bible. All these views should be covered. Some proponents of hypnosis describe miracles and such in terms of hypnotic phenomena. You need to be careful when accusing an organisation of having cult characteristics because it depends on who you ask. So, we need to be able to balance the "Cult characteristics" section with a neutral description of all parties concerned. This will require some negotiation. --Comaze 05:10, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, it is much simpler than you make out. The fact is, you have spent months trying to mess up or delete the criticisms. And you have done so in the most surreptitous ways possible. You are going to have a very hard time trying to persuade people you are doing something beneficial to the article. It is just not happening. The criticisms section is for the criticisms. According to NPOV a criticism can be placed and cited, and that is how it is. You are changing cited statements to suit your own agenda. If you want to balance the cult characteristics that the critics say exist, then do so in the above NLP section (if there is any factual info available). Otherwise, leave the article alone. Bookmain 05:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Bookmain (AliceDeGrey/HeadleyDown/DaveRight), Well if you do not want me to edit the criticism section, you better start editing it to present all views fairly. An example of this group's bias can be found here and here (Bookmain/AliceDeGrey/HeadleyDown/DaveRight) is shown to support the views of a Christian opinion (watchman foundation) that states that "NLP is a cult" or "New Age" while not supporting a balancing statement that from a different Christian ministry that advocates the use of NLP techniques in counselling and sermons. Let's stick this to the issues. --Comaze 06:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Tidy Up

I have created a new criticism subsection titles 'Atheoretical Pretence' and I renamed the 'Overview' section 'NLP and Theory'. I removed the critical remark to the criticism section. Any feedback appreciated. flavius 06:17, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello Flavius Vanillus and all. I am mostly happy to tidy up (I think its time now most of the waring is over). I think the Atheoretical Pretence section is fine and above board as long as it remains in the criticisms section (it is a criticism after all). Keep up the clarity! Camridge 06:25, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that the waring is over. Today, I made a couple of simple POV clarifications and was shot down, and then reverted 4 times by the one group of editors. I will respect any cleanups that take place, but the article needs to be cleaned up for verification, and NPOV before any major clean-up work takes place. The --Comaze 06:31, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, it looks like you are the only warmonger left right now. AliceDeGrey 06:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

That is completely unfair and below the belt. I explain why I thought your reversions were unfair and you (HeadleyDown, AliceDeGrey, and group) replied with a mix of personal remarks directed at me, reversions and comments that failed to address direct questions I raised addressing the issues of bias (specifically in representing both views held by Christians about use of NLP in sermons and christian counselling). Some consider it to be new age, or cult-like, some consider it to simply language patterns that can be used to enhance communications. I provided the references. Let me remind you again, NPOV means that all views should be represented, even if they contradict your POV or other POVs. My personal POV is that personal beliefs such as religion should not even enter this discussion, but it is there, so we have to address it in a neutral manner. --Comaze

I only know of a few Christian pastors (Baptist) that say they use NLP in the process of pastoral care or sermonizing and all are associated with Bobby Bodenhamer. Most Baptists regard NLP as akin to witchcraft (that is why Bodenhamer and Hall have penned papers arguing that NLP is not the work of the devil). The mainline churches (Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant and Anglican) regard NLP as New Age and hence unchristian and nonbiblical. I'll see if I can find some references. If a minority of pastors use NLP then that doesn't offset or negate the wide condemnation of NLP by the Christian Church. By all means mention the religious application in the applications section but keep it out of the criticisms. The muliplicity of views can't be expressed in every paragraph. The balance will be achieved over the totality of the article not by tacking on, "But", "However", etc to every critical statement. Although the term "cult" is pejorative it is used and well-defined by cult experts such as Lifton. I have a few papers from the Cultic Studies Journal and (as the name would indicate) the word "cult" is defined and used liberally in the papers. flavius 08:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

This does support my argument that NLP can be use by cults and form cult thought reform. I did a quick search on that journal and found a ethics document that requires exit cousellors obtain written permission from clients before using neuro-linguistic programming or hypnosis for use in thought reform [5]. I wonder how they define NLP or hypnosis? --Comaze 02:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Flavius, yes the new section looks very clarifying and educational as wikipedia should be. It will need some direct association with actual criticisms made by critics. There are many starting with Singer, and I remember a few articles on the web stating the same kinds of things. I will have a good dig around for brief added critical support. ATB AliceDeGrey 06:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

In relation to the list of references. We need some way to distinguish between journal articles, website references, books written by original developers, books written by outsiders. A simple alphabetical listing makes this very difficult to discern. --Comaze 07:12, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello Comaze. In these kind of circumstances it is better to keep alphabetical. There have been a lot of arguments and accusations over whether something is a book or an article or both. Seperating into sections leaves the article open to biased headings, and even more needless battles and it makes it very hard to decide which section to add to and to search. I understand you would wish to see more opportunities for bias and disturbance, so I can see why you would suggest such an arrangement. Perhaps I should just ignore you for the sake of keeping the peace. Camridge 07:21, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Comaze. No I think it should be alphabetical. Locating a reference in a multitude of lists is difficult. Also, references are conventionally presented in alphabetic order in one block. flavius 08:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, Flavius, The issue regarding academic/non-academic sources is based on wikipedia policy. The references listed are in alphabetical order is fine. However, there needs to be notes or another way for the reader to discern the reputation of sources. --Comaze 22:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the subsections titled 'Goals' and 'View on Cognitive Understanding of Problems' (?). These were terribly written, redundant and lacked cohesion. I can add something about the problem insight. The NLP position can be stated in a sentence. I also trimmed down the presuppositions section. I'm still not happy with it. I also removed the reference some obscure British NLP trainers views on the presuppositions. I think Dilts and DeLozier's views on presuppositions are authoritative since they contributed to their formulation. I added a quote to the Extraordinary Claims section regarding the topic of genius. In light of this quote I think the defensive statement that in effect says "oh no, no one said we can make you an Einstein' should be re,oved. I don't like the list of NLP techniques. It's awful. It should be replaced by a succinct description of a few representative techniques. The Milton/Meta model section is also terrible. I'll rewrite it. At the risk of sounding provincial I get the impression that much of the prose that is awful was authored by those for which English is not a first language -- it reads like 'broken English'. Comaze and FT2 is English your first language? flavius 12:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Most posts I have to use Babelfish :) Jokes aside, I think the entire document needs to be copyedited with special attention to prose. With so many different editors, it would be nice to keep the same style throughout the entire document. --Comaze 22:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

mmmm!

Comaze. I am just wondering what it would look like if you went through and "copyedited" the article. Somehow I think it would need some further adjustments:) I'm not psychic, I just have a powerful intuition about these matters! HeadleyDown 11:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks HeadleyDown, I keep strictly in line with Wikipedia:How_to_copy-edit. The other option is to put a cleanup tag on the page to get another editor in to do it for us. --Comaze 13:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Winkin

Hello all. I decided to get more active and I added some lit by Yves Winkin, a world class anthropologist from the Sorbonne in France. He seems to be a highly quotable source. Camridge 03:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge, how did you establish the reputation of Winkin? Does his reputation hold enough weight to be quoted 9 times without any attempt to balance it with a rebuttal from the proponents view? In this respect I think that your recent edits are biased. --Comaze 03:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, the article is currently pro and critic oriented and that has solved a great many problems associated with multiple deletions/attacks and so on. It has also encouraged a greater variety of editors to contribute now that things have settled down. NLP is extremely self-promotional and thus it is quite acceptable to have world view criticisms. You seem desperate to keep the views to a minimum. You are suggesting edits that go against the multiple view perspective of wikipedia policy. Are you anti NPOV or just anti French? Camridge 05:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC) PS. Winkin actually attended NLP workshops in California under Bandler in order to write this peer reviewed scholarly journal article. Camridge 05:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Camridge (with HansAntel) , I am stating directly that your recent edits [6] are biased and violate NPOV. These are staw man without providing proper context or rebuttal from NLP proponents. Can you please modify your contributions to take into account these objections. --Comaze 06:19, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, I have just been looking through your history over the past few months. You clearly have an agenda to promote NLP and delete all criticisms. This is entirely biased, and I understand you will probably always lobby for removal of fact. Considering you will never change this could make the situation hard to handle. Instead of treating you as a normal unbiased member I feel the best thing to do is not waste any more of my time, so I will simply ignore you. My edits are perfectly within wikipedia recommendations and I don't need you to tell me how to behave. Camridge 07:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I object to these edits by Camridge and HansAntel because they contain bias, overgeneralisation, give too much weight to one author, and fail to take into account other points of view (eg. reply or rebuttal). I request that we ask for comment from neutral third party, mediator or arbitration committee. --Comaze 08:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Comaze, mediators are generally very neutral. You won't like their judgment at all. You never did before.HeadleyDown 11:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

HeadleyDown, You were very quick to dismiss. It would in your best interest to attempt to resolve any content disputes with a neutral third party. --Comaze 22:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi All, there appears to be an arbitration page open for this article with space for requests and decisions. Are all involved editors aware of this?

Hello Faxx. Yes I think most people are aware. But nobody really is that bothered. Its mostly for proNLPers to list unreasonable complaints about edits that happened during confilicts. Most neutral editors are just getting on with editing and looking for brevity. The problems have mostly been solved already by dividing the sections more clearly. Regards HeadleyDown 03:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking at those diffs, I would say that some of these statements do generalize far too hastily. If I think NLP is Z and I find person X with career Y who agrees that NLP is Z, I cannot just say "Y's believe that NLP is Z(citation of Y)" .Voice of All^T|@|ESP 23:49, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceOfAll. The author is well published, but some of the statements are misplaced according to agreement. I can find better places for them in addition to NPOVing. HeadleyDown 03:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceOfAll and Comaze. I reviewed some of the edits that Comaze is troubled by, namely, Cults and Winkin. The cults section I have to admit is tenuous. The only notable author cited is Singer. 'Vexen Crabtree' is a 'Punk/Goth' guy with a self-indulgent web site. I'm sure Vexen is a nice chap and he has his fashion worked out (judging by the images on his website) but I don't think his opinion counts for much. Also, the Watchman Expositor site is written from a an ultra orthodox Protestant/Baptist view. Any doctrine that isn't based on a literalist Biblical interpretation is deemed suspect by this group, including the two seminal branches of Christianity (Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism). I have no problem with the cults section being trimmed down to only include Singers view until further (credible) views are sourced on this topic. I also read Camridge's edit based on Winkin and they look good, i.e. well sourced, but perhaps truncated. Expanding Winkin's position such that reasons are provided would eliminate the appearance of 'bad faith'. My concern though is that Comaze would then object to the coverage given to Winkin's view. This -- I think -- would indicate bad faith on Comaze's part. flavius 06:50, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes Flavius, more coverage of Winkin will be useful. I have had a good read of his article and it does offer more insight. The cult section needs some brief clarification also. From my studies I have - Sharpley, Heap, Eisner, Langone, Singer, Winkin, Novopashin, Barrett, Christopher, Helish, Howell, and some others describing NLP as a cult. Perhaps just a simple list as I have just stated will suffice (eg "Sharpley, Heap, Eisner, Langone, Singer, Winkin, Novopashin, Barrett, Christopher, Helish, Howell, describe NLP as a cult) but supplying the appropriate years to the citation. Comaze has already proved he has bad faith - its called NLP:) Regards HeadleyDown 07:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that the scientific studies of NLP, critics, psycholinguists', neurologists', and psyschologists' opinions of NLP are enough for criticism. Lets not try to include every type of scientist, especially when such a claim does not have enough citations to be well supported.Voice of All^T|@|ESP 09:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello VoiceOfAll. My last edit was to create a more concise version of what was there, and I believe we can make simpler statements that include even more experts, but resulting in far more concise passages in general whilst keeping explanations clear. Certainly there are other authors to corroborate Winkin's statements and I will provide them soon. I believe the same can be achieved with the above non-critical NLP section, though perhaps I am not the one to do that (without extensive conflicts and reversions etc). Regards HeadleyDown 11:00, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Perls and Dianetics

I don't think this sentence accurately reflects Fritz Perls' involvement with Dianetics:

By the late 1960s, self-help organizations such as EST, Dianetics, and Scientology had become financially successful, receiving attention and promotion from human potential thinkers such as Fritz Perls who during this period, promoted and operated a Dianetics clinic (Clarkson and Mackewn 1993).

I can't find any other source indicating that Perls "promoted and operated a Dianetics clinic" at all, let alone in the late 1960s, and I question whether that statement is a fair representation of Clarkson and Mackewn.

I do not have a copy of that book, but neither the full-text search feature provided by Google (http://print.google.com/print?hl=en&id=dzB8lFoyH8sC) nor the one provided by Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0803984537) yield any results when searching on "Dianetics".

Perls did investigate Dianetics from 1949-50. He wrote the introduction to Winter's 1951 "A Doctor's Report on Dianetics". However, by that time, he had already come to conclusions that would seem to preclude him taking Dianetics up again in the last years of his life.

By October, 1950, I had come to the conclusion that I could not agree with all the tenets of dianetics as set forth by the Foundation. I could not, as previously mentioned, support Hubbard's claims regarding the state of "clear." I no longer felt, as I once had, that any intelligent person could (and presumably should) practice dianetics.

(from http://www.xenu.net/archive/fifties/e510000.htm -- note: not a neutral site)

Considering how much critical material on Dianetics and Scientology is published on the Internet, I would expect to find many more references affirming Perls' alleged re-involvement in his later years.

In any case, I would like to suggest that this sentence, in the absence of more solid evidence, be struck from the article or otherwise edited to avoid misrepresenting Perls' investigations into Dianetics. For that matter, I fail to see how that sentence or the following portion of the paragraph that it appears in sheds any light on the nature of NLP.

I would be glad to work on this edit myself, but I'm not sure how -- aside from posting this section to "talk". I am a wikipedia newbie! Thanks. Shunpiker 19:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi. Dianetics was actually still in vogue during the 60s (or at least, some therapists (especially gestalt) still considered it a reasonable technique) and the gestalt theory of memory is pretty much identical to that of dianetics. Perls actually ran a dianetics clinic during the 50s and 60s, but he also introduced wierd new age zen ideas of awareness that he had picked up on his travels. Perl's dianetics background sheds a great deal of light on NLP. Firstly, they are both extremely similar in principle and form. They both use command hypnotics, Korzybsky's map territory, engrams, trauma change, belief in unlimited potential, use of metaphor, the use of ritual, they are both psuedoscientific and are often classified together according to many scientists, and the financial success of dianetics/scientology was a powerful motivator for all the more recent LGAT cults of the 70s 80s and 90s such as NLP, Tony Robbins, Landmark Forum, EST and so on. Basically most people who saw the beginning and end of the dianetics trend in psychotherapy tends to see NLP in the same light. A lot of the books and papers criticising NLP or classifying it as a fringe therapy also talks of dianetics in the same sense (pseudoscientific, scientifically unsupported). However, there is some evidence that places dianetics as less ineffective than NLP on the whole (stronger placebo effects with client/auditor). Anyway, the fact that Perls actively promoted and practiced dianetics is reason enough to place the fact in the article background. Regards HeadleyDown 06:06, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Headley, I understand that you believe that Perls promoted Dianetics and ran a Dianetics clinic, but what I'm looking for is documentation of those allegations.

As mentioned above, the footnote in the article (Clarkson and Mackewn, 1993) appears to be spurious. Furthermore there is documentation that Perls investigated Dianetics in 1949-1950, but publicly concluded that no "intelligent person" could or should practice it -- a rather peculiar form of advocacy, don't you think?

Since Perls was one of the "models" for NLP, he belongs in the article, but painting him as a Dianetics zealot doesn't fit with the facts, at least as I can discern or document them. If you can back up your assertions about Perls and Dianetics, please do so. I would definitely want to know if they were true, and the article would benefit from the substantiation. If those allegations can't be substantiated, however, I sustain that they do not belong.

Thanks, Shunpiker 08:37, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Shunpiker. Don't take Perl's comments individually. He was quite a contrary chap. Look at "Perls" (I can't remember the author), and most other of his biographies. His support of dianetics is documented there. I will provide more sources in time. He wasn't a zealot as such. He included a lot of other wierd new agey kind of ideas in his methods. Anyway, here is just one link I found just from a simple goodle search "Perls, a staunch supporter of dianetics" http://www.xenu.net/archive/fischer/Fischer_1.html. Regards HeadleyDown 16:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Headley,

Upon further investigation it appears to me that the quote I found from the "A Doctor's Report" -- "I no longer felt, as I once had, that any intelligent person could (and presumably should) practice dianetics." -- comes from J.A. Winter, not from Perls. My mistake. The source I was quoting includes the header "Introduction", but on re-inspection appears to skip over the actual body of the introduction. In any case that quote is attributed to Winter in the Dianetics article.

The Fischer paper calls Perls "a staunch adherent of dianetics", but provides no substantiation for that statement. To the contrary, it proceeds to quote Perls (from his introduction to Winter's book) as criticizing L. Ron Hubbard for the unscientific character of his work -- presumably Dianetics.

Please do find whatever evidence you can to support the link between Perls and Dianetics, but until that evidence is located, should Wikipedia be in the business of repeating the rather serious allegation that Perls advocated and practiced Dianetics? If Wikipedia is going to assert that, shouldn't it be recorded on the pages for Fritz Perls and Dianetics? Currently there is no mention of Dianetics on the Perls page and no mention of Perls on the Dianetics page. It strikes me odd that the NLP article is the only one to make note of this rather significant association.

Yours, Shunpiker 21:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Shunpiker, HD was the editor who originally posted this, later EBlack added this. JPLogan added the "and promotion" in this post. It seems that JPLogan was the first to post it here --Comaze 03:08, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yo Shunpiker. Serious allegation? Sounds like you really don't like Dianetics! Not biased at all are you? You should read what Tom Cruize says about Scientology. Anyway, from what I read, Perls was against Hubbard going for the religion idea in order to promote his ideas. Perls wanted to do clinical studies on his dianetics practice (with Hubbards funding). It didn't happen. Don't take wikipedia as a source. If this article was only run by the likes of Comaze and the other fanatics, there would be no criticism section at all (or it would end up promoting indirectly). Basically, go and do some library searches. The info is everywhere. DaveRight 02:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

DaveRight, I have warned you 5 times to avoid personal remarks. It is really not useful to call someone a fanatic. Do you want to get a neutral 3rd opinion on this? --Comaze 03:14, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

It is useful, Comaze. Everybody should know you spent months deleting criticisms several times a day. Fanatic, zealot, censor, these are all words that describe your behaviour perfectly. The small edits you make in between are just a smokescreen. Your agenda is to promote NLP by removing criticisms and by whitewashing NLP by removing any new age or cultlike fact that places NLP as a fringe wierdo charlatan therapy. So warn me again, and I will go into more detail about your cultlike smear campaigns, and your sneaky edits. DaveRight 03:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi again Shunpiker. Here are some more links. They are direct and indirect. The gestalt psychology ones (a fringe therapy) show that it was influenced by dianetics anyway. Even without Perl's strong implication, gestalt therapy itself is influenced by dianetics. Remember that most of the psychology background of Bandler and co is gestalt.

http://www.sonoma.edu/users/d/daniels/Gestaltsummary.html

http://www.larabell.org/ladder.html

http://co-cornucopia.org.uk/coco/articles/cocother/cocoth2.html

http://www.pacificnet.net/~cmoore/ghill/esalen2.htm

http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/h/hubbard_l_r.shtml

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:vtZaYuV7WEcJ:co-cornucopia.org.uk/coco/download/cocothea.pdf+fritz+perls+dianetics&hl=zh-TW

Whatever, dianetics is everywhere in NLP. Not just in theory, but in practice. I'm not suggesting that you join or become an auditor:) but have a delve into auditing and you will see the embryo of NLP.

Here you can see Perls making the same kind of grandiose claims as NLPbrains http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1165

Whatever, Perls was a dianetics fan, and Bandler and Grinder wanted the same fame, adulation, and finances when they developed NLP - thats how EST developed also. History repeats! DaveRight 03:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, once again, Comaze reverts to his normal campaign agenda. Even after requests from mediator to provide such evidence, Comaze removes it. I resored the engram reference as it was indeed notable and from a certified NLPer. AliceDeGrey 03:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)