Talk:Cascadia Cup

2009 Cup Winners

Hey, Shittle Flounder fans! Just face the fact that we won the Cascadia Cup! The Cascadia Cup is currently a USL cup, not a MLS/USL cup which should make you guys void of winning the cup. By the way, those two matches you won? Vancouver= A friendly match! Portland= U.S. Open Cup. Those are NOT Cascadia Cup matches. Just face it, Timber won! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.117.202.218 (talk) 19:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Cup was awarded to the Timbers on August 6th [1] Btaholla (talk) 03:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I have included the matches with the Sounders in the standings, as per the guidelines of the competition. Some users have engaged in an edit war to undo the addition of this information. I have included the necessary citations. Socceraficionado (talk) 05:12, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The information you are updating is incorrect and should be removed as such. This cup was officially awarded to the Portland Timbers on August 6, 2009, as per the rules of the competition. The games the Sounders played against the other teams were not recognized (one was a U.S. Open Cup game, which would not have counted even if all three teams were in the same league). SportingFlyer (talk) 09:15, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The Cascadia Cup is not part of MLS Fan Cups. When 2011 rolls around and the Timbers and Whitecaps join MLS, the cup will transition from a United Soccer Leagues Fan Derby to an MLS Fan Cup. Should this continue to be vandalized in this manner, you will be reported and following User:Socceraficionado's warning, will be swiftly dealt with.
News articles showing the competition is between the Whitecaps and Timbers while the sounders are in a different league. [2]

-Btaholla (talk) 15:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not vandalizing this page. Please refrain from hyperbole and threats. The competition rules are very clear. The Cascadia Cup was created by the supporters of the Whitecaps, Sounders, and Timbers; and it involves games played among these three teams. The oregonlive.com article cites incorrect information. It states "Notes: By defeating Vancouver in two out of three games this season, the Timbers won the Cascadia Cup, a fan-based competition between Portland and Vancouver that is determined by the best head-to-head record." This is not correct. You have also removed the paragraph about the history behind the creation of the Cascadia Cup. I am re-instituting the correct version of this article.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 16:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Straight from the Cascadia Cup website: "As a part of the USL Division One schedule the teams will host games against their local rivals to count in the Cascadia Cup standings." Notice how only league matches count toward the awarding of the cup. You continue to place results from a preseason closed door match and a US open cup match in the results for the cup. As SportingFlyer has pointed out, these matches have no bearing on the Cascadia Cup.

-Btaholla (talk) 16:44, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

That web site has not been updated since 2008. The supporters of all three teams decide each year how the competition will be settled. Every year there has been a schedule quirk, and this is explained in the Wikipedia article. In 2008, all three teams were in the same league, hence the competition was settled with all league matches. In 2007, only the last two games played among each team were counted. In 2009, the teams are in separate leagues, but there are still games between the teams.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 16:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the rules do change each year. However the one consistency every year is that only league matches count. Hence the reason it is in bold on the official website. Here is how the rules were defined before you began editing after the competition had already ended for this year, "Supporters of Portland and Vancouver, have continued to hold a Cup competition for 2009 and 2010. Portland and Vancouver will include all scheduled regular season USL-1 matches played between the two. Should the two clubs remain tied on points after all matches played, away goals will be used as the first tiebreaker to determine the cup winner." Furthermore, you continue to revert to references that have no reference to the Cascadia Cup at all while deleting references that do reference the Cascadia Cup.

-Btaholla (talk) 17:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Here is a discussion of how the cup would be awarded in 2009 [3]

-Btaholla (talk) 17:15, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The consistency you refer to was due to both teams being in the same league. That is not the case this year, hence that past consistency does not inform the context of the present situation. The quote you cite from an older version of the article does not include the Sounders supporters. The revised article does. Which references have I reverted to that have no reference to the Cascadia Cup? I see three references: 1) Lists the founding supporters of the competition; 2) Points to an article which supports the definition of the competition -- "The match also counts in the Cascadia Cup tournament played every season. The teams that play for this trophy are the Portland Timbers, Seattle Sounders, and Vancouver." -- ; and 3) Points to an article about the match between Portland and Seattle, the most high-profile of all the Cascadia Cup matches this year.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Btaholla, please stop removing references to the Sounders involvement in the Cascadia Cup.

- 17:27, 8 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Socceraficionado (talk • contribs)

Yes, your 2 reference points to the 2007 competition. You however continue to use this as support to remove the reference to the 2009 cup rules as were determined by the Timbers and Whitecaps (the only two teams left in the same league) supporters groups in April. Now regarding your 3 reference, you say "Points to an article about the match between Portland and Seattle, the most high-profile of all the Cascadia Cup matches this year", however the article makes no mention of the Cascadia Cup, and you know why? It is because only league matches count toward the Cascadia Cup. Never in the history of the cup have non-league matches counted toward the Cascadia Cup competition and thus in this years rules the sounders were not included in the competition.

-Btaholla (talk) 17:44, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The rules to the competition are determined each year by the supporters of all three teams. There is no on-going rule that says only league matches count. The past is not an indicator of the present. The three teams are in different leagues this season and next, hence a different set of rules was needed once again. The revised article clearly states how the competition will be settled this year. Portland and Vancouver will count league matches, and Seattle will include other matches played against Portland and Seattle. The #2 reference points to an article from 2007, but it is not supporting a time-sensitive fact. It supports that the basis of the competition involves the teams Portland Timbers, Seattle Sounders, and Vancouver Whitecaps. The #3 reference is about the game that was played between Portland and Seattle on July 1. It is not about the Cascadia Cup.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 18:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

If you think that the sounders were included in this competition, show me a news source from 2009 that includes the sounders in the 2009 Cascadia Cup competition.
"The past is not an indicator of the present." LOL. Fitting in that you keep referencing an article from the 2007 competition as your basis for the sounders inclusion in the 2009 competition.
"The three teams are in different leagues this season and next, hence a different set of rules was needed once again. The revised article clearly states how the competition will be settled this year." Again, give me a source for your revised rules. I've already linked to one from April that listed the rules for this years competition but you have deleted it. Your rules came out of nowhere after the cup had already been awarded. You've seen the pictures[4], right? Portland already has the cup.

-Btaholla (talk) 18:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The article from 2007 is a basis for establishing the definition of the Cascadia Cup. All three teams participate. There is no Cascadia Cup without all three teams. The picture you have linked to is not a source. I have not deleted any source of yours that indicates that the Sounders are precluded from this years competition. The notion of the competition involving only the Timbers and Whitecaps violates the very definition of the Cascadia Cup. Please refrain from vandalizing the page and removing references to the Sounders.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 19:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The Cascadia Cup is a tangible object. It has physical form, extension. It is currently in the possession of the Portland Timbers following their defeat of the Vancouver Whitecaps. (See, inter alia, Btaholla's picture, above.) You may dislike this fact, but it is a fact. You may argue that the Portland Timbers should not possess it, but they possess it. Your revisions are misleading because they misrepresent an objective, verifiable fact: the Portland Timbers have the Cascadia Cup. You seem to disagree with how the Timbers and Whitecaps supporters organized the Cascadia Cup competition this season, but that is a disagreement you need to take up with them. In the end, the only fact that matters--and the only fact that is appropriate for the page--is that the Cascadia Cup is in the possession of the Portland Timbers. Caphaddock (talk) 20:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The article can be amended to explain how the Cup came into the possession of the Timbers. That does not pertain to the results and standings of the matches that took place this year.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 20:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, another user going by the name SounderSuk is undoing changes, as well. Please refrain from removing references to the Sounders in this article.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 20:39, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

You're missing the point, Socceraficionado. The standings and results you keep putting into the page are irrelevant. They had nothing to do with the decision this season to award the cup to Portland. You seem to disagree with that decision; take it up with the Portland and Vancouver supporters. Feel free to add a section addressing your concerns, but the revisions you keep making are misleading. Caphaddock (talk) 20:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

How are the results and standings irrelevant? These are games that were played this season as per the guidelines of the Cascadia Cup. Please stop removing references to the Sounders from this article. You will be reported. Thank you.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 21:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The results of matches involving Seattle were not counted this season in determining who won the cup. Hence, they are irrelevant to the 2009 Cascadia Cup. You appear to disagree with that decision, which is why you keep pointing to the guidelines from past seasons, but that is something you need to take up with the Portland and Vancouver supporters because they set up new guidelines for the 2009 season after Seattle went to MLS. Take your concerns up with the Portland and Vancouver supporters, but stop trying to revise history on a Wikipedia page. Caphaddock (talk) 21:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

That is incorrect. I am not pointing to guidelines from past seasons. The previous version of this article gave the impression that Vancouver and Portland supporters decided on their own how to handle the cup for the 2009 season. The new version includes the decision of all three groups. Please stop removing references to the Sounders.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 21:28, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

We're obviously getting nowhere with this discussion. Accordingly, I just edited the article to be as neutral as possible and added a section called, "Controversy over the 2009 Cascadia Cup." I think we should try to be productive here. I don't have any problem with adding asterisks or noting that matches against Seattle weren't counted in the decision to award the cup to Portland, but it's frankly revisionist to insist that the Sounders actually won the cup. It would be like editing the page that lists the presidents of the United States to say that Al Gore actually won the election in 2000. We can dispute it until we're blue in the fact, but George W. Bush was elected president. Caphaddock (talk) 22:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Your version does a good job presenting a larger set of information. I have made some additions. Please consult the new version and provide feedback. Thank you.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 22:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I have added notes where citations are needed. If they cannot be provided, I do not see how this section is anything but postgame whinging.

-Btaholla (talk) 23:13, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

An important citation was included in prior versions, but is missing from this version. It lists the Founders Circle of supporters who funded the cup. Please include this citation at the end of the first sentence in the first paragraph. Thank you. http://goalseattle.com/CascadiaCup/supporters.htm

- Socceraficionado (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The score of the Timbers US Open Cup game against the Sounders was 1:2, not 0:1.

According to an open letter from the Sounders supporters on the Southsiders forums, the ruleset of the Cascadia Cup is determined by a two-thirds vote (where each team's support is allocated a vote). The rules were agreed upon earlier in the season (in the first Vancouver/Portland game at Swangard) and it was clear from that point on that Vancouver and Portland would contest the cup, using league matches they contested. Among the reasons the Southsiders argued that the Cup should not be withheld for the 2009 and 2010 seasons is that Seattle did not choose to protest until the day of/day before the Cup was to be awarded. That thread can be found here: http://forum.vancouversouthsiders.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=3297

- DamionOWA (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

In tabulating the supposed controversy regarding the cup this season, the Sounders have decided to count a preseason match with whitecaps wherein they won 4-nil and therefore should also count the 3-2 preseason loss to the Timbers at Starfire complex on Monday April 13th 2009. The final standings, if all non league matches are to be counted, per the Sounders wishes to make the contest more balanced and include them, should be: Timbers 3-0-2 (w-d-l)(9 points), Sounders 2-0-1 (6 points), and Whitecaps 1-0-3 (3 points). —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:ACES (talk) 12:35, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The game on April 13, 2009, pitted Portland Timbers versus Seattle Sounders Reserves. http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/sounders/2009/04/13/portland_timbers_3_sounders_fc.html It does not appear on the Sounders schedule. http://www.soundersfc.com/Matchday/Schedule.aspx The open letter from Sounders supporters alludes to a two-thirds vote, but is this two-thirds vote only used to determine the methodology of the competition, or can it also be used to preclude one of the teams from the competition? I believe the latter is false as all supporters groups funded the creation of the cup. Also, it appears that the Sounders supporters were not involved in this meeting that took place prior to the Vancouver/Portland game at Swangard. Only Whitecaps and Timbers supporters were present. A proper meeting would have all three groups in attendance, each presenting their preferred methodologies and each getting a vote.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 13:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Portland won the 2009 Cascadia Cup. This is verified by numerous reliable sources. (See citations 10 through 17 on the main page and WP:V). There are no reliable sources that state that Seattle won the Cup. While some Seattle fans may dispute how the Cup was organized in 2009, that is properly in the "Controversy" section. The remainder of the article should simply state that Portland won. Caphaddock (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The argument against using the April 13th match in the standings is exactly the same as using the Whitecaps preseason game against the Sounders; namely that the games do not give a full account of the teams in that year and teams are not pressured to give their all in them. It was, you would assume, more difficult to beat the Whitecaps in the regular season, as Portland tried to do twice, succeeding only once, than in a preseason game, which is why it would be unfair to count that result. When it comes to the legitimacy of the rules determined for the 2009 season, the open letter reads "But it is not unreasonable to suggest that some decisions should require unanimous consent." This wording implies that no rule is set in stone currently to require it. I suggest that there is ample opportunity to settle this for the next season with all three supporter's groups present--perhaps at the Supporters Summitt at the next MLS Cup. However, despite the fact that Portland and Vancouver fans considered the race for the Cup on throughout the whole of the USL-1 regular season, Seattle waited to voice its concern to the Southsiders until the Cup itself was already in a car en route to Portland to be presented to the winning team. I believe that the rules were set in advance, and there should have been some effort to change them prior to this. Any attempt to argue a rule change now to include any non-league games, etc. is purely revisionary, not supported by any notable sources, and not supported by the two-thirds rule set by the Founder's Circle. I move that the two-team 2009 Cascadia Cup results be considered valid and moved to the proper section, the controversy be duly noted in the Controversy section, and all of these issues--number of teams, eligibility of non-league games, quorum for determining rules of the competition, and the rules themselves--be settled for the 2010 season at the Supporter's Summit in November in Seattle rather than on a Talk page on Wikipedia.

- DamionOWA (talk) 20:23, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Not on the schedule? Right, so didn't happen. I forgot about that rule. And the match of Vancouver v. Seattle doesn't appear on any of their schedules http://www.whitecapsfc.com/men/schedule/ so that match is only worth half credit for the Sounders organization. The results of the cup (without the Timbers-Sounders preseason match) would now be: Portland 2-0-2 (w-d-l)(6pts), Seattle 1.5-0-0 (4.5pts) and Vancouver 1-0-2.5 (3pts). Don't you find it a bit petty that you are attempting to include a preseason match with Vancouver which took place two months prior to the season start yet are trying to exclude a match with the Timbers because the Sounders played "reserves"? They were wearing Sounders FC kits, playing in one of their complexes against their rivals, coached by the Sigi, but it doesn't count, even though almost every player has been a "starter" for the SSFC this year. But I'm sure there were no trialists or "reserves" with Vancouver during their preseason match in February so it's not the same thing. Here is the starting roster for the Sounders from the April 13th match against the Timbers, http://gosounders.com/2009/04/13/sounders-reserves-lose-to-timbers/ on this page, you will find that every player who started the match (with the exception of Jared Karkas who was drafted and shipped out) is still on the Seattle Sounders FC payroll, suits up for regular season matches, have started numerous matches and make appearences in non-reserves games. In fact, most players who partook in the match in question on April 13th have played in over 50% of the Sounders MLS regular season matches, http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=t260&year=2009 Should those regular season matches not be counted in the MLS standing becuase those players are "reserves"?

- ACES (talk) 20:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.203.78 (talk)

Much of the discussion above violates WP:OR: "Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions." See also WP:V: "Articles should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." There are no reliable, third-party published sources even talking about some kind of controversy. The controversy is completely limited to internet message boards and, now, Wikipedia talk pages. All reliably, third-party published sources very clearly state that Portland won the Cascadia Cup in 2009. Done, end of story. Caphaddock (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The game in April was not against the Sounders. It was against the Sounders Reserves. This game took place in lieu of the MLS Reserve League composed of reserve teams for MLS, which was cancelled this season. It does not appear on the Sounders or Timbers schedules. The Whitecaps game appears on the Sounders schedule. http://www.soundersfc.com/Matchday/Schedule.aspx The Talk page should not be used to argue over the merits of the various methodologies proposed by the three supporters groups. That is up to the three supporters groups to sort out. However, the Talk page is a good place to iron out the facts of what took place. Up to this point, we have verified through citations that the Timbers and Whitecaps supporters groups decided on a methodology without any input of the Sounders supporters and did not inform them of this. The Sounders supporters eventually learned what was happening -- not from direct contact of the Whitecaps and Timbers supporters -- and added their input prior to the last Vancouver/Portland game. Vancouver supporters physically handed the Cup over to the Portland supporters at the conclusion of their match on August 6, 2009. The citations regarding the Timbers winning the cup are not primary sources. The primary sources are the three supporters groups themselves, who decide how the Cup is contested each year and inform the teams and journalists of the results. It is not enough to point to these sources and say "Portland won the 2009 Cascadia Cup". The context of how and why this confusion has occurred should be fully explained in this article.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 20:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Caphaddock, you are the editor who created the Controversy section. Prior to that, users were undoing the updates to the page which included the Sounders results and any reference to the Sounders involvement in the Cup. That was vandalism. Your revision was a good solution as it more clearly explained the events and context of what happened in as neutral a voice as possible.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 20:46, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

And I've had time to think about my changes, especially now that the page is locked. Portland should be clearly listed as the winner of the 2009 Cup for the reasons I stated above. Caphaddock (talk) 20:51, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Fact: the MLS reserve league stopped play after the end of the 2008 season. note, no seattle listed, http://web.mlsnet.com/mls/reserve/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLS_Reserve_Division The game in question, on April 13th, took place in the 2009 season. Seattle never had a reserve team as they didn't become MLS until 2009, by which time the league in question was no longer in operation. Seattle may have played their "reserves" or subs, but there are currently no more reserves teams in operation, despite what the title says. Count all Seattle matches, or count none. There is no picking and choosing. Kthx.

- ACES (talk) 20:55, 9 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.203.78 (talk)

The third-party sources you cite rely on the primary sources of the three supporters groups. The third-party sources report the status of the competition ipso facto to what occurred between the three supporters groups. I have outlined the facts as we have collectively found thus far in my 20:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC) entry on this page. It is fine to list those sources as having reported what they reported. It is also proper to include the events that took place that defined the confusing context of this year's competition, and clearly state the two methodologies for determining the winner of the competition as a single methodology was never agreed upon by the three supporters groups.

- Socceraficionado (talk) 21:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll just lay this out one more time. All reliable, third-party sources (see WP:V) state that Portland won the 2009 Cascadia Cup and the manner in which they won. Citation 11 (www.oregonlive.com) states: "By defeating Vancouver in two out of three games this season, the Timbers won the Cascadia Cup, a fan-based competition between Portland and Vancouver that is determined by the best head-to-head record." Citation 14 (www.katu.com) states: "With their second win over the Whitecaps this season, Portland captured its first-ever Cascadia Cup – a fan-based derby between the two Northwest rivals. The cup is awarded annually to the team with the best head-to-head record between the clubs. Portland finished the season series against Vancouver with a 2-1-0 record." Citation 15 (www.ctvbc.ctv.ca) states: "The victory also extended their remarkable single-season unbeaten run in the league to 19 matches and confirmed the Timbers as first-time winners of the fan-based Cascadia Cup competition after winning two of their three regular season contests versus Vancouver." Some Sounders fans may dispute this, but Wikipedia is not the place to publish their arguments (see WP:OR) absent reliable, third-party sources supporting those arguments. Caphaddock (talk) 21:05, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Socceraficionado, you are in your own world. The 15 people that edited YOUR vandalism provided sources. All you did was revert to your opinion repeatedly, even after being warned by The King of Hearts that what you were doing was against Wikipedia policy. How can we set up one of the polls to settle this? Socceraficionado seems to be the only one here that thinks seattle somehow won the cup, even though in the open letter to the founders from the seattle founders there is no mention of seattle being awarded the cup. Socceraficionado is just making shit up after the fact. Socceraficionado, I'd suggest you do the Cobain.

-Btaholla (talk) 21:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

It is clear at this time, according to the wording used in the open letter from Sounders supporters addressed to the Founder's Circle, that there is no set rule of quorum that determines who must be present to constitute a meeting, regardless of whether or not there should be such a rule. That means that any rules generated with the approval of two-thirds of the supporters groups are the rules of the competition. Whether or not that is a fair or equitable solution is not the purvey of Wikipedia or its talk pages. By the rules of the competition, Portland won the 2009 Cascadia Cup. There is no rule stating that the Sounders may veto this because they disagree; in fact, the two-thirds rule is in place specifically to prevent any one group from claiming an alternate ruleset. According to WP:V (notably named Verifability, not Truth), Exceptional Claims are "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources". According to that rule, such claims "require high-quality sources. If such sources are not available, the material should not be included". The only reason that it can be claimed that Portland have not won the 2009 Cascadia Cup is that the rules make the 2009 competition invalid due to lack of quorum, which is not only not a claim for which there are no exceptional sources, but not one supported by the Sounders fans themselves. Any table which includes results including matches with the Seattle Sounders (incidentally, all such proposed tables award the trophy to the team whose supporter is proposing it) reflects a ruleset proposed only by a portion of that team's own fanbase, and therefore does not survive the two-thirds threshold. The facts of the matter, including the rules of the competition and all reliable sources, say that Portland won the cup. Any dispute over the rules of the competition for 2009 is irrelevant under WP:V (the part that requires verifability) without exceptional sources. Any unfairness or objectionable element about the methology of the Cascadia Cup needs to be settled for next season at the Supporter's Summit. It is not within the purvey of Wikipedia or its rules to debate the issue or to attempt to certify a set of results of a sporting competition.

- DamionOWA (talk) 21:13, 9 August 2009 (UTC)