Talk:Communism/Archive 8: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 20:59, 14 December 2005

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Communism/Archive 8 page.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Censorship?

Again, 172, does this censorship and removal of information continue to demonstrate that one side prefers that certain information not allowed to be viewed?

(Gibby 20:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

No one is interested in 'censoring' your information on China's economic policies. However, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, which means that it is supposed to follow certain standards of relevance for including information in any given article. The information that you are interested in adding here is off-topic in the communism article, and more appropriate in articles related to economy of the People's Republic of China and Communist Party of China. Please take your comments to other articles where your concerns are more relevant. 172 20:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

they are perfectly relevant here. You have failed to demonstrate why they are not. (Gibby 20:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

Communists in power and the free market

Discussion on whether or not this section should be included...

Contrary to original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, the People's Republic of China; the largest country whose ruling party refers to itself as communist, runs Special Economic Zones dedicated to capitalist enterprise, free from central government control. After opening up trade to the world under Deng Xiaoping, the People's Republic of China runs some of the most economically free regions in the world, including Hong Kong, which is regarded by the Hoover Institute and the Wall Street Journal as the world's freest economy [1].

These Special Economic Zones have few restrictions upon businesses, industries, imports and exports, including the elimination of duties, and a free price system. Since the opening of the Free Trade Zones China has maintained a growth rate of over 8%, and originally saw growth rates around 12%. These Special Economic Zones are different than the State Capitalism, as practiced in the Soviet Union, because the SEZs allow for capitalists to build and expand their industries and private property, free from the control of the central government. SEZ's operate under market economy rather than the state capitalist top down command economy approach.

According to China.org "After opening Shenzhen and other three coastal cities in South China as special economic regions and then dozens of economic and technological development zones in the 1980s, the country introduced free trade zones in the early 1990s in 15 coast cities, including Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzhen and Tianjin." [2] It might be interesting to broaden this section with examples in North Korea and Vietnam. Electionworld 09:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree that it is different from state capitalism. China remains state capitalist, due to political suppression of dissidents. That remains a critical distinction in any "free market" economy whatsoever. Furthermore, yes, China is a major example of a communist country espousing free market ideals, but the current article is already cluttered enough. I could see a paragraph of this being sufficient, fitting under the "Communism today" section, to elaborate on already existing material. The concept of China having a free market is not restricted to China, many so called communist countries already have market economies. Therefore, it should be oriented less on the PRC on more about free markets in communist countries in general, the full explanation being at state capitalism, citing the PRC as an example. -- Natalinasmpf 09:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +

I aggree, China is not the only self described communist country that is implementing market reforms, attracting foriegn investment, lower import restrictions, and encouraging foriegn development. And because multiple modern communist countries are implementing these reforms, it should be included...afterall we've already shown the evolution to lenninism, stalinism, maosim...why not this "reformism"

And yes, Nati, china's SEZs are far different than State Capitlism. China runs 2 separate economies. 1 command economy 1 market economy (in the SEZs)...market economies are NOT state capitalism as none of the supply, demand, or price information is directed by the central government. (Gibby) Because that is not an ideology, and is covered in both state capitalism and communist state. It remains state capitalism because the government still economically represses its society directly (as opposed to insidiously with plutocracy). Ultimately, it still remains state capitalism because the internal flow within the country has not been lifted, and thus remains state capitalist. -- Natalinasmpf 19:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +

Well opponents of free markets label them an ideology and now its mixed with communists...sounds like it clears to me. +

Is it me or are the excuses for excluding this section constantly changing? (Gibby 20:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)) +

No, they are not. The reasons for excluding the section are that it is off-topic, irrelevant, POV original research. Please give it a rest. Information on the economy of China can be found in economy of the People's Republic of China. Information on the CPC can be found in Communist Party of China. Please give it up here. 172 20:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC) +
It is not POV, POV has been removed.
It is not Original Research. All the data is taken from respectable published sources (REad the freaking rulebook) +
It is not off topic it follows in line with the spirit of the page which is demonstrating how communist theory and ideology has changed over time
And the simple fact that this information is briefly covered does not adequatly explain why this should not be included as several sections in this page are not only included in other pages but have their own pages as well. +
Your refusal to allow this section is simple censorship. You dont want information counter to your own beliefs to be entered into this page for fear of people learning to disagree with your position. You are an intellectual coward who cannot fight facts on its own merits and has to hide behind perverting wiki rules to see intellectual competition removed +
(Gibby 20:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 :No one is interested in 'censoring' your information on China's economic policies. However, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, which means that it is supposed to follow certain standards of relevance for including information in any given article. The information that you are interested in adding here is off-topic in the [[communism]] article, and more appropriate in articles related to [[economy of the People's Republic of China]] and [[Communist Party of China]]. Please take your comments to other articles where your concerns are more relevant. [[User:172|172]] 20:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
-Communists in power and the free market
+they are perfectly relevant here. You have failed to demonstrate why they are not.  (Gibby 20:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC))
+==Communists in power and the free market==
+Discussion on whether or not this section should be included...
 <b>Contrary to original communist theory, and even communism as it has been practiced under regimes such as Lenin, Stalin, and Mao, the [[People's Republic of China]]; the largest country whose ruling party refers to itself as communist, runs [[Special Economic Zones]] dedicated to capitalist enterprise, free from central government control. After opening up trade to the world under [[Deng Xiaoping]], the People's Republic of China runs some of the most economically free regions in the world, including [[Hong Kong]], which is regarded by the Hoover Institute and the Wall Street Journal as the world's freest economy [http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=HongKong].